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Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/10/2008 11:35:22 PM   
HansBolter


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Could we get a quick overview of a base's capabilities in the base interface?

I am referring in particular to the many capabilities added to bases by having various types of "tenders" docked there.

This could be in the form of buttons or text that greys out when the capability is not there and brightens when it is.

It would sure help to be able to tell at a glance without scrolling through a list of ships to see if I have destroyer or submarine reload capabilities at a given base, just to use those two as an example.
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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/10/2008 11:43:14 PM   
Terminus


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You're too lazy to note what tenders you have there?

Most of the display screens in the game are loaded to maximum capacity. So no.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/10/2008 11:59:55 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Hans, just hold your mouse cursor over the anchor symbol on the map - that will show all ships disbanded in the port so you can quickly see what auxiliaries you have in that port.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 5:32:48 PM   
HansBolter


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The whole point of the request is to avoid having to scroll through or look through a long list of ship at anchor and remember which type provides which capability.

Having a quick reference would go a long way toward efficient distribution of these types of ships that come in linimited quantities.

Call it laziness if you want, but it mostly stems from a lack of familiarity. Presently, I have to keep a hardcopy list of ship types handy, then I have to cross reference it against each base I want capabilities at to determine what I have and what I still need.

Terminus, try to keep sight of the fact that some of us haven't been playing this game since it's release.

From the point of view of a newcomer, the thing I find most lacking in the game is operational and strategic overview reporting. Either it just isn't there, or I still need help in discovering where it is. A "what are the present capabilities of this base" type report would go a long way toward facilitating asset allocation management.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/11/2008 5:37:31 PM >

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 6:40:29 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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How can you quickly show that "Destroyers may replenish torpedoes at this port" better than seeing an AD listed on the mouse over?

Sometimes trying to reinvent the wheel just makes things more difficult IMO.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 6:56:51 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The whole point of the request is to avoid having to scroll through or look through a long list of ship at anchor and remember which type provides which capability.

Having a quick reference would go a long way toward efficient distribution of these types of ships that come in linimited quantities.

Call it laziness if you want, but it mostly stems from a lack of familiarity. Presently, I have to keep a hardcopy list of ship types handy, then I have to cross reference it against each base I want capabilities at to determine what I have and what I still need.

Terminus, try to keep sight of the fact that some of us haven't been playing this game since it's release.



Yeah, myself included... That's no excuse for being lazy.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 7:02:56 PM   
witpqs


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What HansBolter suggested is just plain good design. I'm sure it's way out of scope for AE considering the large number of greater priorities, but there nothing lazy about suggesting a well-designed interface.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 7:26:33 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over? There are no lists to scroll or buttons to click, nor is there so much writing in the mouse over so as to obscure the important information.

I don't think that it is asking too much of a WITP player to remember the few auxiliary tenders we have in the game:

AD - destroyer tender
AS - sub tender
AGP - PT tender
MLE - minelayer tender (I know, didn't exist IRL)
AR - repair ship
AV, AVD - seaplane tender
AE - ammunition ship
AO - fleet oiler

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 7:27:46 PM   
witpqs


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They are two different issues.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 8:20:25 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over? There are no lists to scroll or buttons to click, nor is there so much writing in the mouse over so as to obscure the important information.

I don't think that it is asking too much of a WITP player to remember the few auxiliary tenders we have in the game:

AD - destroyer tender
AS - sub tender
AGP - PT tender
MLE - minelayer tender (I know, didn't exist IRL)
AR - repair ship
AV, AVD - seaplane tender
AE - ammunition ship
AO - fleet oiler




Wait till you see the three pages worth of ship types in AE. It will be easier to have a hard copy list by your side.

Someone said it is actually posted somewhere in the Naval Thread above...

< Message edited by treespider -- 3/11/2008 8:23:00 PM >


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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 8:25:46 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

What HansBolter suggested is just plain good design. I'm sure it's way out of scope for AE considering the large number of greater priorities, but there nothing lazy about suggesting a well-designed interface.



Thank you.

My thinking is that the overall strategic commander shouldn't have to data mine every base when he wants an overview of his capabilities.

He should have a nice neat report on his desk from each base commander as to the present capabilities of their respective bases.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 8:29:59 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over?


The simple fact that there might be 20-60 ships in that list to have to wade through to find the elusive (in this case) tender one is looking for.

What could be more elegant than a set of indicator light in the base interface that states uncategorically if the capability is present or not....no data mining required.

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Post #: 12
RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 8:35:53 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
What could be more elegant than a set of indicator light in the base interface that states uncategorically if the capability is present or not....no data mining required.



It sounds elegant but as with everything in this game it would likely be a bear to implement. In particularly since some ship types have multiple base enhancement functions.


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Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 9:21:09 PM   
witpqs


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You could even have lights along the bottom row of the display (when a friendly base is selected) that would be lit to signify certain functions available. Probably plenty of other ways to do it.

The real problem is that it would be a lot of work and that energy is best spent on a new interface, which makes it a WITP "-II" issue.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/11/2008 10:51:27 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over?


The simple fact that there might be 20-60 ships in that list to have to wade through to find the elusive (in this case) tender one is looking for.

What could be more elegant than a set of indicator light in the base interface that states uncategorically if the capability is present or not....no data mining required.



Because what you are advocating requires one to click on the base in order to bring up the base interface. The mouse over allows me to quickly sweep over multiple bases in order to find the one with the auxiliaries that I need. Anytime I can get the information I want without opening another screen is a good thing, IMO.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/12/2008 1:48:39 AM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over?


The simple fact that there might be 20-60 ships in that list to have to wade through to find the elusive (in this case) tender one is looking for.

What could be more elegant than a set of indicator light in the base interface that states uncategorically if the capability is present or not....no data mining required.



Because what you are advocating requires one to click on the base in order to bring up the base interface. The mouse over allows me to quickly sweep over multiple bases in order to find the one with the auxiliaries that I need. Anytime I can get the information I want without opening another screen is a good thing, IMO.



Absolutely agree.
I can scan a dozen bases looking for specific ship types (such as tenders) in the time it takes to open, examine, and close one window.

If I have no idea where they are, I open the all-ships list, sort by type and immediately see the base locations by name (for units in a TF, I have to click each TF to locate, but generally when I lose ships I lose them in ports )

There are a lot of things in the interface that are absolutely screwy and even more where the poor player desperately needs some computer assistence but I can't agree that this is one of them. Save the programmer hours for more worthy targets.

< Message edited by pompack -- 3/12/2008 1:51:37 AM >

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/12/2008 1:56:03 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over?


The simple fact that there might be 20-60 ships in that list to have to wade through to find the elusive (in this case) tender one is looking for.

What could be more elegant than a set of indicator light in the base interface that states uncategorically if the capability is present or not....no data mining required.



Because what you are advocating requires one to click on the base in order to bring up the base interface. The mouse over allows me to quickly sweep over multiple bases in order to find the one with the auxiliaries that I need. Anytime I can get the information I want without opening another screen is a good thing, IMO.



Absolutely agree.
I can scan a dozen bases looking for specific ship types (such as tenders) in the time it takes to open, examine, and close one window.

If I have no idea where they are, I open the all-ships list, sort by type and immediately see the base locations by name (for units in a TF, I have to click each TF to locate, but generally when I lose ships I lose them in ports )

There are a lot of things in the interface that are absolutely screwy and even more where the poor player desperately needs some computer assistence but I can't agree that this is one of them. Save the programmer hours for more worthy targets.


I guess some people just enjoy data mining.

This is exactly the kind of thing I don't want to have to do.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/12/2008 2:56:35 PM   
treespider


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So how do you propose the programmers delineate between the presence of an AR, an ARD, and AG?

The AR Is an Auxilliary Repair Ship used to repair damage to other ships.

The ARD is an Auxilliary Repair Dock used to repair hull damage on other ships but do it better than any other ship.

An AG is a Miscellaneous Auxilliary which can repair small craft. (WitP's AG is now termed an LB)...and it can be used to rearm ammo on these same small craft.

< Message edited by treespider -- 3/12/2008 2:58:57 PM >


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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/12/2008 3:19:15 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

So how do you propose the programmers delineate between the presence of an AR, an ARD, and AG?

The AR Is an Auxilliary Repair Ship used to repair damage to other ships.

The ARD is an Auxilliary Repair Dock used to repair hull damage on other ships but do it better than any other ship.

An AG is a Miscellaneous Auxilliary which can repair small craft. (WitP's AG is now termed an LB)...and it can be used to rearm ammo on these same small craft.


First of all, I fail to see the need for me to come up with a solution for that.

I made a suggestion for what I would like to see.

I provided sound valid reasoning for the desire for it's presence.

Since I am not a programmer, I have no clue how to actually imnplement it.

Since I am a designer with some skills in graphic layout and presentation (I am an architect) I CAN suggest several waya that it could be graphically organized and presented, but again, I fail to see the need for ME to do so.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you are asking valid questions about potenially complicating issues and NOT just engaging in a childish attempt to throw roadblocks in front of an idea you dislike out of petulance.

The most simple way I can see to present several variables is with categories and subcategories. One category could be REPAIR with 3 sub buttons that light up, one for GENERAL, one for HULL, and one for SC (small craft). The REPLENISHMENT category could have as many subcategories as is necessary to depict all of the various categories of replenishment types with a button that lights op for each.

Designing an interface to facilitate this information isn't rocket science!

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/12/2008 3:35:44 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

So how do you propose the programmers delineate between the presence of an AR, an ARD, and AG?

The AR Is an Auxilliary Repair Ship used to repair damage to other ships.

The ARD is an Auxilliary Repair Dock used to repair hull damage on other ships but do it better than any other ship.

An AG is a Miscellaneous Auxilliary which can repair small craft. (WitP's AG is now termed an LB)...and it can be used to rearm ammo on these same small craft.


First of all, I fail to see the need for me to come up with a solution for that.

I made a suggestion for what I would like to see.

I provided sound valid reasoning for the desire for it's presence.

Since I am not a programmer, I have no clue how to actually imnplement it.

Since I am a designer with some skills in graphic layout and presentation (I am an architect) I CAN suggest several waya that it could be graphically organized and presented, but again, I fail to see the need for ME to do so.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you are asking valid questions about potenially complicating issues and NOT just engaging in a childish attempt to throw roadblocks in front of an idea you dislike out of petulance.

The most simple way I can see to present several variables is with categories and subcategories. One category could be REPAIR with 3 sub buttons that light up, one for GENERAL, one for HULL, and one for SC (small craft). The REPLENISHMENT category could have as many subcategories as is necessary to depict all of the various categories of replenishment types with a button that lights op for each.

Designing an interface to facilitate this information isn't rocket science!



1. Where did I say I disliked your idea?

2. My intent was to generate an example of how to implement your suggestion within the framework of the current UI design. For a suggestion to have a better chance of consideration it is generally better to provided an example of its implementation.

3. From your above suggestion the buttons and lights take up screen space most of which is already occupied. So in essence a new screen would need to be created to handle the base capability summary report.

It could be a useful feature...however as some of the players have pointed out essentially the same information is presented when you list the Auxilliary's on the ship list at a base...its just not as intuitive as your idea.


< Message edited by treespider -- 3/12/2008 3:36:14 PM >


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Post #: 20
RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/12/2008 3:55:21 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

1. Where did I say I disliked your idea?

2. My intent was to generate an example of how to implement your suggestion within the framework of the current UI design. For a suggestion to have a better chance of consideration it is generally better to provided an example of its implementation.

3. From your above suggestion the buttons and lights take up screen space most of which is already occupied. So in essence a new screen would need to be created to handle the base capability summary report.

It could be a useful feature...however as some of the players have pointed out essentially the same information is presented when you list the Auxilliary's on the ship list at a base...its just not as intuitive as your idea.




You didn't say it, I obviously inferred it, apparently incorrectly as I mistakenly lumped you together with the naysayers.

You are correct that suggesting a solution for implementing the suggestion would probably provide a better chance of it being accepted.

I disagree that the screen space is not available and would require an additional screen. As some one suggested above the icons could be arrayed accross the bottom strip where SOME basic base information is already provided.

Attempting to use the logic of the naysayers, why did the designers even bother to provide the limited (from my perspective) base information accross the bottom strip when the very same information is available in the mouse over fly outs on the main map screen? Maybe because a little redundancy in providing multiple avenues to the information is NOT a bad thing?

From my perspective, they did a sort of half-way job of providing essential base information in the base interface. It could be better. Isn't that what this forum is for, to suggest ways to make it better?

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/12/2008 4:32:00 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over? There are no lists to scroll or buttons to click, nor is there so much writing in the mouse over so as to obscure the important information.

I don't think that it is asking too much of a WITP player to remember the few auxiliary tenders we have in the game:

AD - destroyer tender
AS - sub tender
AGP - PT tender
MLE - minelayer tender (I know, didn't exist IRL)
AR - repair ship
AV, AVD - seaplane tender
AE - ammunition ship
AO - fleet oiler




Wait till you see the three pages worth of ship types in AE. It will be easier to have a hard copy list by your side.

Someone said it is actually posted somewhere in the Naval Thread above...



And so they were posted :

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1645669

< Message edited by treespider -- 3/12/2008 4:36:36 PM >


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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 8:01:41 PM   
Czert

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Again, I ask what is more simple and elegant than listing the auxiliaries in the mouse over? There are no lists to scroll or buttons to click, nor is there so much writing in the mouse over so as to obscure the important information.

I don't think that it is asking too much of a WITP player to remember the few auxiliary tenders we have in the game:

AD - destroyer tender
AS - sub tender
AGP - PT tender
MLE - minelayer tender (I know, didn't exist IRL)
AR - repair ship
AV, AVD - seaplane tender
AE - ammunition ship
AO - fleet oiler


Combine this with anothers VC, BB, BC, DD...etc - and someone can lost with this - and imaginme another, vhen novice player KNOW we have destroyer tender in game, with D inside, but cant recall - it is DD, AD, DAA, DAX...etc ?
In game info of ALL abbreviations is very logikal - it is hard to rember to remember all subtypes of destroyer!!! or other ships.
Is not layzyness to dont write by hand all those abbr. -and wanting this to be displayed in game (sorry if this in game, I dont own it, but seriosly considering of buying it)- it is only wanting of display in which shall be in game from begining.

And after re reading of inital post and discusion I must agree with Hans - this is very needed for game and not-so-hardcore players.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 8:08:04 PM   
Czert

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
What could be more elegant than a set of indicator light in the base interface that states uncategorically if the capability is present or not....no data mining required.



It sounds elegant but as with everything in this game it would likely be a bear to implement. In particularly since some ship types have multiple base enhancement functions.



If one ship is capable of multitasks, but one at each time is is difficult to add after base capability xxx : yes/no to add variable number : /2(/4) (for multiple ships) 1 (one ship) ,2,3.4...etc for more ships ? Or better repair/rearm..etc POINTS. better ship - more points per ship.


< Message edited by Czert -- 3/13/2008 8:25:58 PM >

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 8:18:30 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I suppose this is as good a place to ask this question, considering the discussion is about auxiliary ships and what benefits they give to a base.

The repair ships (AR) are said to increase the ability of a port to repair additional ships.  Is it better to put these ships in ports with existing repair facilities?  If so, should they go in the ports with smaller repair values so they can enhance their repair ability, or should they go in the larger ones to increase the speed of repair?  Or, should they go in ports with no repair facilities so they can function as minor repair sites?

Right now I've got AR's in Pearl Harbor, Sydney and San Francisco, but is that the best place for them?

(in reply to Czert)
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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 8:18:32 PM   
witpqs


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It's not the coding at the basic level that he means. The issue is that the game engine has about 2,000,000 lines of code. A great deal of it was written in the early 90's, including the interface. Standards and software technology were a lot different then. Working with the interface is very time-consuming compared to software written with facilities available today.

They only have so many resources devoted to AE, so they had to be very judicious about what made it in and what didn't. There is fairly strong indication that there will be a WITP-II that will be a much more major work - nothing official from Matrix, BTW, just speculation here based on the success of the game and the company's commitment to the AE version.

Things like Hans suggested (and I also agree with), are really items that will have to wait for -II.

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 8:32:22 PM   
Czert

 

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witpqs - if you have right for code of WITP/AE - then, mayby is time to abadon old code, and write totaly new for another WITP II or similiar game (WPO II ) ?

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 8:43:15 PM   
witpqs


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No - I don't have the code!

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RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 8:48:35 PM   
Rainer

 

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Looks like it's time to open a "Wish List for potential WitP2", isn't it?
Trouble is that someone has to monitor this and collect the valuable thoughts, which may be a manpower problem.
However, if such a game (WitP2) is scheduled for, say, summer 2009, now is the time to collect input from the community. Or so I think.
Of course, if Matrix / 3by2 cannot officially commit to such a release (yet), they probably also would not support the idea of collecting input for a product which does not (yet) exist. Not even in a planning state.
Maybe we all should wait (like Matrix is apparently) until AE is released and the sales results are on the table.

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Post #: 29
RE: Quick overview of a bases capabilities - 3/13/2008 9:01:10 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
Status: offline
I think it's premature until we all get a good look at AE.

(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 30
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