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RE: Outlook Express 6 - MS Does it Again!

 
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RE: Outlook Express 6 - MS Does it Again! - 3/3/2008 10:49:23 PM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

Err. what? How is not listing Outlook Express as a system requirement, when it isn't one, misleading? Windows XP is an operating system, not an email client. Its claim that it's compatible with the operating system is 100% correct.


Wrong. Outllook Express is a part of XP only, not Vista. Outllook Express is now broken, ergo the XP compatibility claim is incorrect, hiding it is deceptive and misleading.

As for your work around, thanks. Yes, that's all Microsoft gives us - "we broke Outlook Express now search the web for a fix". As for being so easy, it would have been nice if MS gave me the option whether to overwrite those files in the first place.

MS knows of this problem and is hiding it from their Office 2007 marketing. Deceptive and misleading.

The correct product claim would be "Incompatible with spell checking English, German and Spanish in Outlook Express". Wouldn't that sell well!

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 31
RE: Outlook Express 6 - MS Does it Again! - 3/3/2008 11:04:08 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
Okay..well..

Outlook Express is not XP. Outlook Express is a free email client that has been shipped with IE4.0 for Win95, It was shipped with Win98, 2k, ME, and XP as their standard free throw in.

Windows Vista doesn't have OE because it has Windows Mail.. the replacement for OE..also free. Vista doesn't have MSN Messenger either.. it has it's replacement. That's a side point, but emphasize that vista changes a lot of things.

MS does give you the option to include those files or not. At least for the professional version, it's part of the installation process. Click on advanced installation then choose the portions of the software you wish to install. The language profiles are part of the options. And if that doesn't work (if the standard version doesn't support advanced installation), as the link said, you can then point the installer to other language profiles.. even ones from older versions of Office. Do you need to know this before hand.. yes.. and I'll agree that's dumb, but certainly not the end of the world when you can indeed make it work.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 32
RE: Outlook Express 6 - MS Does it Again! - 3/3/2008 11:04:38 PM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

First, it would be best if you stopped telling people how to conduct themselves on general public forums. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my post or how it was presented. It's not your place to "teach" adults how to conduct themselves. I'm not one of your kids. I don't need to be given lessons.


I simply asked that you grant the courtesy of not using condescending language in your posts, which you obviously feel you must do. If you direct an answer to me, I expect it to be rational and without condescention and sarcasm. This is not the private forum, and I expect a little more respect here.

quote:

Overall, I didn't realize it was possible to miss the point that badly.


Perhaps you should have presented your case better.

quote:

quote:

The application of the general to the specific without evidence is a fallacy of logic.


I don't need to provide you links to court cases that never made it into a court room. I've witnessed examples of this sorts of decisions made due to ludicrous laws first hand. I suppose as witnesses are considered "evidence"..then I suppose there's your evidence.


Before I came a school teacher, I was an insider in the computer industry. I am well aware of what goes on.

quote:

It doesn't matter if the original topic about a spell checker specifically. The argument was targeted towards this general attitude that Microsoft some evil empire needing the rebel alliance to bring it down. I brought up another example to emphasise my point. I'm allowed to do that.


I am not trying to bring down Microsoft. I am trying to control it. There is a huge difference.

quote:

Most customers do not care if microsoft "bundles" software with the OS.


Most consumers are not educated enough to know why they should worry about bundling. Nevertheless, it is illegal for very good reasons, and there are people educated enough to know why.

quote:

What do you think Apples biggest marketing strategy is? Heck they had a TV commercial that called out the fact that everything you need it "bundled" with the OS. I don't care if they only sell it on their hardware.


Again, apples and oranges.

quote:

quote:

Windows was released with Windows 3.1. What does the original release date have to do with it?


As my point was missed, I'll explain it. Some minor updates aside, Outlook Express is 13 years old. In software terms, that's prehistoric.


It was never upgraded in 13 years? I find that hard to believe.

quote:

quote:

This is a spell checker we are discussing. How much upgraded could it be?


The original spell checker was designed for Office 95 which was built around COM. OE can use it because they were built off the same technologies. Office2k7 (and it's spell checker) is built on .Net technologies. They're as different as night and day.


Well, there it is. Your premise that the spell check was not compatable because of law suits is not valid, as this is the likely reason.

The law suit premise was a straw man.

quote:

quote:

That is an invalid argument as it ignores the market dynamic. Without Microsoft, these games would likely be running on GEOS or OS/2 Warp with the OpenGL 3D graphics API.


This is not an invalid argument. If anything, coming from someone that actually develops software for a living, it's validity is strengthened. Non developers telling people that actually do the job for a living what works and what doesn't, really doesn't hold much water.


This appeal to authority fallacy is logically invalid as well.

quote:

NONE of those technologies you have mentioned are as mature as Windows and DirectX. Two of them are long dead because nobody wanted them. Would they have survived with out windows? Would they have matured without windows?


One of them, at least, would have survived and would have matured just like Windows.

People didn't purchase 0S/2 because their computer already came with Windows.

GEOS started on the Commodore 64 and Atari platforms. It didn't stand a chance against Microsoft requiring Windows to be purchased with MS-DOS.

quote:

Perhaps, but the general consensus when they originally came out was that they were extremely difficult to develop for when compared to Windows. And that hinders creation of software to run on the OS. So nobody was going to create the "killer app" needed to push the OS over the edge.


The AmigaOS could multitask in hardware with only 512K of memory. It was much superior to Windows for many years.

OS/2 Warp had a Workplace Shell that Microsoft copied parts of for Windows 95, but Warp was a losing cause because of Windows ties with MS-DOS. Warp also had multitasking capabilities.

OpenGL was superior to DirectX and was the gaming standard until Microsoft used Windows to leverage DirectX.

Stating that no other company other than Microsoft could have created the defacto GUI standard for the PC ignores how markets work.


< Message edited by Marauders -- 3/3/2008 11:14:18 PM >

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 33
RE: Outlook Express 6 - MS Does it Again! - 3/3/2008 11:24:38 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
quote:

I simply asked that you grant the courtesy of not using condescending language in your posts, which you obviously feel you must do. If you direct an answer to me, I expect it to be rational and without condescention and sarcasm. When I ask you to refrain from this in the rpivate forum, your response is that I don't have the right to tell you how to act in the private forum. that's fine, but this is not the private forum, and I expect a little more respect here.


There was nothing disrespectful at all about my post. Nothing. All I read was you trying to teach me like one of your kids. If nothing else, that's disrepsectful in it's own right.

quote:

Perhaps you should have presented your case better.

I think most probably figured it out. I'd suggest trying to understand it better.

quote:

Well, there it is. Your premise that the spell check was not compatable because of law suits is not valid, as this is the likely reason.
The law suit premise was a straw man.


Hardly... do you not think that they would have provided a free update to OE to make use of the new technology?? And you think my argument was targeting the just the spell checker? If you do, you missed the bigger picture I was trying to present.

But again.. point missed. I'm tired of explaining it. Obviously some corperate shmoe someplace sat down and said "yes.. today I'm going to try and screw over all those people using our free software".. yep.. that's much more likely than any other explanation.

quote:

People didn't purchase 0S/2 because their computer already came with Windows.


You mean DOS right?? When OS2 came out, most computers were still sold with DOS. Windows didn't become popular (en mass) with sales of home PC's until Win3.1


quote:

What do you think Apples biggest marketing strategy is? Heck they had a TV commercial that called out the fact that everything you need it "bundled" with the OS. I don't care if they only sell it on their hardware.

Again, apples and oranges.


Only to you. Your case is that Microsoft Bundles software and that's ilegal. Apple MARKETS its OS as bundled software yet gets away with it because they also monoploize the hardware. So they sell hardware with a bundled OS that contains bundled software. Based on the logic you have attempted to present, Apple is breaking more laws and is far less ethical than microsoft. But it's okay.. they're apple.

Meh.. I give up. People like to hate microsoft for the sake of hating microsoft. It will never change. All large corperations have the same problem.

< Message edited by David Winter -- 3/3/2008 11:38:23 PM >

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 34
RE: Outlook Express 6 - MS Does it Again! - 3/4/2008 12:00:02 AM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

I simply asked that you grant the courtesy of not using condescending language in your posts, which you obviously feel you must do. If you direct an answer to me, I expect it to be rational and without condescention and sarcasm. This is not the private forum, and I expect a little more respect here.


There was nothing disrespectful at all about my post. Nothing. All I read was you trying to teach me like one of your kids. If nothing else, that's disrepsectful in it's own right.


David, the use of "Oh please" and similar language is often considered dismissive and condescending. The fact that I am a teacher has little to do with it; the fact that I am an adult does.

quote:

quote:

Well, there it is. Your premise that the spell check was not compatable because of law suits is not valid, as this is the likely reason.

The law suit premise was a straw man.


Hardly... do you not think that they would have provided a free update to OE to make use of the new technology??

But again.. point missed. I'm tired of explaining it.


I understand your point, but I disagree with it. I am not asking you to explain it.

You stated:

quote:

This is what happens when microsoft is continually sued for not playing fair with other software vendors. Some software vendor someplace decided it wasn't fair that Microsoft included a fully functional spell checker in their software because it meant that vendor had no reason for people to buy theirs. So they sued, and someone in government said.. oh yeah.. that's not fair. So microsoft has had to pull 'standard' functionality out to allow other venders to sell add-ons to replace it. So here's a case where everyone expects the OS to do the job, but it can't because it wouldn't be fair if it did.


So far, not only have you not been able to support this premise with evidence, but you gave contradicting evidence that suggests this was caused by the change to using .NET technologies.

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 35
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