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Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 3:40:31 AM   
Neilster


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The new Australian government wants the option to buy F-22 Raptors, which I believe would require a law change in the US. Defence experts here have been loudly calling for this but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition.

Their mystifying decision to retire the F-111 early and bridge the gap until the F-35 with (outrageously expensive IMHO) Super Hornets has been roundly criticised. The F-35 may not reach RAAF squadrons until 2018ish, leaving Australia's air defence to 24 Super Hornets and updated but aging F-18s in the meantime. There's an ongoing build-up of pretty hot Russian fighters armed with scary weaponry in our region and by 2018 there's a good chance that the 5th generation Russian "Raptorski" could be in service with our northern neighbours.

In short, the F-111 shouldn't be retired and we should request F-22s. The Triple One has unique capabilities, had a massive upgrade in the late 90s and is not that expensive to maintain. The F-22 is in service, is extremely capable, has room for capability growth and has a unit price that is coming down. A nice fat order from Oz will keep the production line open and bring down the unit price for the US taxpayer too (because I think the USAF will be buying more).

IMHO the US would be foolish to deny Australia F-22s and let us lose our regional air superiority. Australia has been a trustworthy and loyal ally and it seems like a win/win situation to sell us some Raptors.

Here's a press release from the excellent analysis website http://www.ausairpower.net

Recent and conflicting media reports from Ministerial advisers about the proposed purchase of JSF and Super Hornet 'interim' aircraft raise grave doubts about the quality of advice being tendered to the Minister for Defence by his staff, said a spokesman for Air Power Australia today.

"Comments attributed to the Media Adviser reported in the Daily Telegraph displayed a very poor understanding of the basics in relation to the matters addressed."

"The Media Release made a number of inaccurate claims and allegations about the combat capability and suitability for the RAAF of the JSF, a profound level of ignorance about the F-22, which is already in operational squadron service with the USAF, and the ability of the Super Hornet to fill the looming gap in Australia's fighter force, to refer to only a few points."

"The JSF, primarily designed for provision of close air support and battlefield interdiction for ground troops, has only a secondary capability to perform air combat against other fighters. It cannot prevail against the advanced Russian Sukhoi Flanker fighter variants operated in the region, let alone planned future developments of these aircraft."

"Furthermore, asserting that the JSF will be operational by 2012 is misleading as the proposal is to buy aircraft from the Low Rate Initial Production run. These are early build JSF aircraft delivered at higher cost than mature aircraft late in the production run. More importantly these early production JSF aircraft will lack mature systems, requiring further modification in later years."

"In short, JSF aircraft delivered in the 2012 timeframe will not be fully operational on receipt, and full capability is unlikely before 2018."

"While the Media Release grudgingly concedes that the F-22 Raptor has no peer in air-to-air roles, to assert that the F-22 lacks the ability 'to cover the full range of [air-to-surface] roles required by Australia' is simply false. The F-22 can penetrate to targets through heavy defences which the JSF cannot survive, to deliver an equivalent payload of smart bombs to that of the JSF."

"Gen Moseley, Chief of Staff, US Air Force, describes the F-22 as 'one of the finest bombers we've ever had' because of its ability to penetrate the toughest defences. All of this is on the public record, in fact the US Air Force is currently in the process of replacing the specialised F-117A Nighthawk strike aircraft, based at Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico, with new F-22As."

"If Defence doubt this, inviting the US Air Force to display F-22A aircraft at the upcoming Avalon Airshow would resolve any uncertainties about the aircraft."

"Premature retirement of the F-111 will leave the RAAF with an unprecedented capability gap in the air strike roles, of the order of 50% against the strike capability planned for in the 2000 White Paper. Assertions that the F-111 aircraft are no longer supportable either economically or technically are simply not true."

"The claim that the proposal to buy 24 Super Hornets is to compensate for the capability gap caused by the retirement of the F-111s misrepresents the actual aim of the buy, which is to cover for the unavailability of existing F/A-18A/B model Hornets being subjected to structural repairs to remain flyable."

"Each Super Hornet only has about one third of the weapon delivery capability of the F-111, and the number of Super Hornets required to properly compensate for the loss of the F-111 would have to be much larger."

"Of no less concern is the fact that the Super Hornet is not aerodynamically competitive against current Russian aircraft in service in the region, let alone supersonic cruise capable variants now in flight test."

"Finally, the economics of the proposed Super Hornet deal do not add up. The 2.5 to 3 billion dollars required to pay for the Super Hornets is several times greater than the cost to operate the F-111s until 2020, or later."

"The Super Hornet purchase will also require a new spare parts supply chain for the RAAF incurring a large ongoing expense. Only a fraction of the spares for the RAAF's existing Hornets are common to the Super Hornet. The most expensive spares are the engines - the Super Hornet has entirely new engines which are unique to that aircraft. The Super Hornet APG-79 radar is also new and, therefore, different, as are much of the airframe, avionics and systems."

"Defence has allowed itself to be painted into a corner - a corner they were warned about repeatedly as early as 2001. Instead of admitting this mistake so that lessons can be learned, Defence is, yet again, expecting the Minister and the Government to bail them out. The Super Hornet is an attempt to hide these mistakes but, in reality, creates even greater problems for the short, medium and longer term."

"The questions that Defence must answer for the Australian public are why is this purchase being made after repeated public denials by senior Air Force officers that such a move was being considered, and what analytical assessment was made of other options, such as acquiring F-22s to replace the worn out RAAF F/A-18A/B model Hornets."

"Buying Super Hornets will take the overall costs of Defence plans for the future fighter fleet to around $22 billion or more. That is over $1,000 from every man, woman and child in Australia."

"Replacing the existing Hornets with the far superior F-22As and keeping the F-111s to 2020+ will cost around $12 billion. This is a saving to the Australian taxpayer of some $10 billion."

"The Australian community is entitled to a coherent and an intellectually rigorous strategy for this most critical of Australia's national security issues- the ability to control our own airspace. We also need to be assured that our tax dollars are spent wisely in the process. Defence is yet to demonstrate an ability to do either of these tasks."


Cheers, Neilster







Attachment (2)

< Message edited by Neilster -- 2/24/2008 4:57:30 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 4:35:45 AM   
mack2


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You are breaking the page. Thumbnail the pics please.

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 4:58:23 AM   
Neilster


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I removed the offending image.

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 5:08:11 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
The new Australian government wants the option to buy F-22 Raptors, which I believe would require a law change in the US. Defence experts here have been loudly calling for this but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition.


Sorry our Policy’s and Law’s are a inconvenience to your inabilities to defend yourselves.





Maybe we can start a world vote on Law next time around


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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 5:44:27 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
The new Australian government wants the option to buy F-22 Raptors, which I believe would require a law change in the US. Defence experts here have been loudly calling for this but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition.


Sorry our Policy’s and Law’s are a inconvenience to your inabilities to defend yourselves.

Maybe we can start a world vote on Law next time around


I guess you mean "policies", "laws", "an" and "inability". Your appalling spelling, punctuation and grammar aside, it's a very strange attitude you display. How is the United States' security enhanced by its long-time strategic partner in the South West Pacific losing its technological edge?

In addition, US Defence Secretary Robert Gates seems amenable to the idea. He met with Australian officials during high level defence discussions yesterday.

"The secretary was very helpful in pointing out that it is not just the administration that we need to approach. It is actually the Congress and the congressman." he told reporters.

"We have agreed that I should both write to him and to the congressman."

Mr Gates said the US administration had in principle no objection to foreign sales of F-22.

"The problem that we have with F-22 is that we have a statute of the United states titled the Obey Amendment that precludes the US from selling F-22s to any foreign country" he said.

"So while we in principle have no objection to it, until the statute is changed, we are not able sell it to any country."


So aside from writing like a rude moron, you don't even have a clue what's going on.

Neilster




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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 7:10:09 AM   
Halsey

 

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The US Government prohibits the sale of stealth technology.

It's a good law, and I hope it remains on the books.

Your country isn't being singled out.

So don't take it so personal.

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 7:20:38 AM   
1275psi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
The new Australian government wants the option to buy F-22 Raptors, which I believe would require a law change in the US. Defence experts here have been loudly calling for this but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition.


Sorry our Policy’s and Law’s are a inconvenience to your inabilities to defend yourselves.





Maybe we can start a world vote on Law next time around




hey sarge
Aussie is the only country in the world to have served alongside your country in every conflict since WW1
We are America's number one friend

Populate it with a few more arrogant americans like you -and no wonder the most hated nation on earth is the ugly yank -treat your best friends with attitude like this - how do expect your enemies think of you.

The F-22 is a brilliant plane -we need it, we have the skilled pilots to fly it, and we can seamlessly integrate with any yank airgroup or military operation(comes from being the best friend for 60 years).
Think of it this way -another strategic assett where you need it, but unlike the bludging european union, we pay for it.

have a nice day.

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Post #: 7
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 7:24:17 AM   
1275psi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The US Government prohibits the sale of stealth technology.

It's a good law, and I hope it remains on the books.

Your country isn't being singled out.

So don't take it so personal.


Nothing personal no -but your country is pretty nuts about how it treats its friends -half of america would not even know where australia is.
pity about sharing stealth technology - we give full access to the most stealthy submarine in the world -the collins class to your navy.
I know from personal experience -a Los angeles submarine is a rock band at sea compared to our ss

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Post #: 8
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 7:37:42 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The US Government prohibits the sale of stealth technology.

It's a good law, and I hope it remains on the books.

Your country isn't being singled out.

So don't take it so personal.

Yeah? Well they claim the Super Hornets they want to sell us are stealthy. I know a fair bit about low observables technology and I don't think they are really, especially as they don't have internal weapons carriage and external stores typically mean a huge radar cross section. A bunch of nations are pencilled in to buy the F-35 which will have reasonable stealth (especially from front on), so how can this be?

All new fighters incorporate stealth to some degree so this policy, if enforced, means no more US fighter exports. I don't think so Tim . The evolving reality of extremely capable Russian hardware flooding the Asian region has already changed minds in Washington. Hence Japan may be getting the F-22 etc.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 9
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 9:21:29 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The US Government prohibits the sale of stealth technology.

It's a good law, and I hope it remains on the books.

Your country isn't being singled out.

So don't take it so personal.

Yeah? Well they claim the Super Hornets they want to sell us are stealthy. I know a fair bit about low observables technology and I don't think they are really, especially as they don't have internal weapons carriage and external stores typically mean a huge radar cross section. A bunch of nations are pencilled in to buy the F-35 which will have reasonable stealth (especially from front on), so how can this be?

All new fighters incorporate stealth to some degree so this policy, if enforced, means no more US fighter exports. I don't think so Tim . The evolving reality of extremely capable Russian hardware flooding the Asian region has already changed minds in Washington. Hence Japan may be getting the F-22 etc.

Cheers, Neilster



When I was working on the F/A18-E/F we tried to integrate "LO" tech as much as possible but it was not a pivotal factor in the design of the aircraft. It was nothing like the B-2, where LO was everything. The F/A18-E/F was all about performance goals, (longer range being one key factor) and schedule. The Navy had just blown all it's money on the A-12 and recieved nothing for it. They were on us hard. We got a little bit behind in the early stages of design and we got put on a mandatory 60 hour work weeks until we caught up.

Most of the people didn't really want any of the LO stuff in there because they knew it would restrict foriegn sales. The A/B and C/D were hugely successful for the company in the area of foriegn sales. Northrop at that time was a small player in the aerospace world, the F-18 was key to us.

I find any arguement that says we can't sell E/F's because of the LO tech really weak. There just isn't much of that in there.


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Post #: 10
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 10:01:09 AM   
Maromak


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This just in....

ABC News

Aust may be able to buy modified Raptors: Gates

The United States says it might have to build a special export version of the Raptor fighter plane if the aircraft is sold to Australia.

At alliance talks in Canberra yesterday, the Australian Government expressed interest in buying the United States' F-22, which is described as the top combat plane in the world.

All overseas sales of the jets are currently banned by an Act of Congress.

Yesterday Australian Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said he would write to the US Government asking for the US to lift the ban.

US Defence Secretary Robert Gates says the Pentagon should have looked at the legal ban more closely, because Japan asked to buy the Raptor last year.

Dr Gates says he will consider Australia's request and whether an export version of the Raptor would have to be created.

"[We would have to look at] whether there would have to be design changes and so on," he said.

"Given the importance that our Australian friends attach to it, it's an issue I intend to pursue when I get back, first of all in terms of conversations with our own people in the Department of Defence and also with the Secretary of State."

Mr Fitzgibbon recently launched a review of the controversial $6 billion contract to buy F/A-18F Super Hornet fighter jets, which was signed off on by his predecessor, Brendan Nelson.


I remember ready somewhere the US was reluctant to export to Japan due to their poor recent record on security in the JSDF.

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 10:09:08 AM   
Neilster


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The whisper is that the A-12 may be back in some way-shape-or-form. The flying wing planform certainly seems to make sense from an internal weapons load/high internal fuel/stealth point of view for an attack aircraft.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/24/2008 11:02:10 AM   
Goblin


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While I understand the need for not exporting stealth tech, I think that the guys have a point. The Aussies rock. Give them the export version.



Goblin

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 12:27:39 PM   
Adam Parker


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We'd be better off buying the Tomcats and AIM 54's the Yanks are throwing away.

Surely they'd be willing to part with a wing of F15E's too.

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 2:17:40 PM   
HansBolter


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It's amazing how perception is in the eye of the beholder.

I saw Sarge's post as a good natured poke at our ally for NOT having the means to protect themselves and having to turn to us for thier needs instead and not quite as the slam Neilster interpreted to be.

I realize we quite frequently come across as arrogant, but try looking at things from our side sometimes.

How would you like it if every one else in the world looked to you to solve their problems for them and andf provide them with the "stuff" they need?

Don't you think it would get old after a while?

Don't you think you would eventually grow somewhat calloused toward it?

Don't you think you would also fall prey to the tendency to respond flippantly to it on occasion?

So, please guys cut us some slack and stop being so thin skinned.

Please.

And yes, the Aussies are the staunchest ally we have. No slight inetended to the Brits, btw.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 2/25/2008 2:20:13 PM >

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 3:28:48 PM   
freeboy

 

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Oz, the 51stt state ?

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 3:46:36 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I'd sell it to you guys down under, you've definitely been an outstanding ally and I'm all for decreasing the cost per unit of the F-22 so we and our allies can all have them in large quantities. Peace through superior firepower.

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RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 4:15:14 PM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

We'd be better off buying the Tomcats and AIM 54's the Yanks are throwing away.

Surely they'd be willing to part with a wing of F15E's too.


Not IMHO. The F-14 (much as I love them) is a naval fighter which means it is built to survive catapult take-offs and the controlled crashes that pass for their landings, so they're heavier than they need to be for our purposes. They're also a very complicated and expensive aircraft to maintain.

The F-15 is very good but was designed to defeat Soviet aircraft of the 80s and 90s. The real problem is the lack of stealth with these 4th generation designs. Stealth doesn't make you invisible, it reduces the distance at which you can be detected, giving those with it a massive tactical advantage.

They also can't supercruise and don't have internal weapons carriage. I could go on but in short, going for a budget option would be a false economy.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 18
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 4:34:22 PM   
06 Maestro


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In view of the strong likelihood that China will have all sensitive U.S. info in a few years anyway, why not sell defense products to a trusted ally? The U.S. is under constant and significant espionage attack from China, but that is their waste-the next Bolshevik president will give them everything they want. Australia could not possibly loose the technology faster than the U.S.
Come to think of it; if Australia can wait about 5 years for its new A/C, it may be able to buy a superior A/C from China at a drastic discount. Of course, there is a chance there may be lead in the air purification system.

Just an after thought: I wonder what my senator (Harry Reid) would have to say about my sentiment-I will have to e-mail the old Bolshevik tonight.

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Post #: 19
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 4:40:50 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


Just an after thought: I wonder what my senator (Harry Reid) would have to say about my sentiment-I will have to e-mail the old Bolshevik tonight.



My condolences.

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Post #: 20
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 4:40:55 PM   
Neilster


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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

It's amazing how perception is in the eye of the beholder.

I saw Sarge's post as a good natured poke at our ally for NOT having the means to protect themselves and having to turn to us for thier needs instead and not quite as the slam Neilster interpreted to be.

I realize we quite frequently come across as arrogant, but try looking at things from our side sometimes.

How would you like it if every one else in the world looked to you to solve their problems for them and andf provide them with the "stuff" they need?

Don't you think it would get old after a while?

Don't you think you would eventually grow somewhat calloused toward it?

Don't you think you would also fall prey to the tendency to respond flippantly to it on occasion?

So, please guys cut us some slack and stop being so thin skinned.

Please.

And yes, the Aussies are the staunchest ally we have. No slight inetended to the Brits, btw.


I appreciate the tone of your post but the US doesn't "provide" Australia with military hardware, we buy it, just as you occasionally do from other countries too (and even Australian gear. Jindivik anyone?). This keeps American defence workers in jobs and helps offset the R&D costs.

What annoyed me was that I started a serious thread about an important topic and he posted imbecilic, trolly garbage. Now, that's his prerogative but he shouldn't be surprised if he gets an arse kicking. His accusation that we can't defend ourselves also grated when I had a career in the Australian Air Force and the Australian Defence force (ADF) is considered to be among the most efficient and capable in the world.

Cheers, Neilster



< Message edited by Neilster -- 2/25/2008 4:44:54 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 9:14:41 PM   
freeboy

 

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Are U splitting hairs?
To provide and to sell are really the same thinf IMO but, for the record I wouldsell u just about anything in our arsenall.. new or used.. maybe we could unload some bradleys.. how about some Iowa class BB's? awesome cruise missile platforms..
those 22's do look nice and I agree with u re the stealth aspect of modern techs... Perhaps there will be another model made buy one of our partners??? which uses some of these same ideas and is less costly?

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Post #: 22
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 9:29:55 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

In view of the strong likelihood that China will have all sensitive U.S. info in a few years anyway, why not sell defense products to a trusted ally? The U.S. is under constant and significant espionage attack from China, but that is their waste-the next Bolshevik president will give them everything they want. Australia could not possibly loose the technology faster than the U.S.
Come to think of it; if Australia can wait about 5 years for its new A/C, it may be able to buy a superior A/C from China at a drastic discount. Of course, there is a chance there may be lead in the air purification system.

Just an after thought: I wonder what my senator (Harry Reid) would have to say about my sentiment-I will have to e-mail the old Bolshevik tonight.


The idiot notion of enforced "diversity" will enable spys to simply get a job at some defense contractor and go about stealing from the inside. This is happening right now. We don't need another Clinton-esqe administration or some traitor to sell us out, it's built in now.

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 23
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/25/2008 11:46:16 PM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

What annoyed me was that I started a serious thread about an important topic and he posted imbecilic, trolly garbage. Now, that's his prerogative but he shouldn't be surprised if he gets an arse kicking.
Cheers, Neilster



quote:

but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition


Funny how you can make casual insults but suddenly become offended when handed the same BS in return .

Save the fake rage for the new members


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Post #: 24
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/26/2008 12:32:36 AM   
Neilster


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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

What annoyed me was that I started a serious thread about an important topic and he posted imbecilic, trolly garbage. Now, that's his prerogative but he shouldn't be surprised if he gets an arse kicking.
Cheers, Neilster



quote:

but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition


Funny how you can make casual insults but suddenly become offended when handed the same BS in return .

Save the fake rage for the new members



You started it, mate.

Additionally, the Howard Government's defence procurement is a national scandal so describing them as "on the drugs" is completely reasonable and frankly a lot kinder than what most commentators are calling them. The Aussie taxpayer is less than impressed with massive cost blowouts and programs that may simply fail such as Navy helicopters that have been restricted so they can't fly at night or over water!

All the best anyway. I've had my say.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 25
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/26/2008 3:27:08 AM   
1275psi

 

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Sarge

if that was a casual insult -OK -Im an aussie and I can take it -but a little more care next time please mate.

Aussie is punching well above its wieght in the world at the moment

Iraq
Afghanistan (where the fighting is)
Timor
Solomons
PNG
UN peace keeping in the middle east (cyprus I think)
and the usual military exercise stuff.

Pity the rest of the world other than USA/Canada and britain have conceded defeat against our facist enemies.

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Post #: 26
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/26/2008 3:44:56 AM   
Raverdave


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Actually the ties go back further than WW 1............any one remember that little scuffle called the Boxer rebellion? 

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Post #: 27
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/26/2008 4:13:17 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 3001
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Actually the ties go back further than WW 1............any one remember that little scuffle called the Boxer rebellion?

I work with some Chinese people. As Basil Fawlty said, "Don't mention the war!"

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 28
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/26/2008 4:54:41 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3988
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


The idiot notion of enforced "diversity" will enable spys to simply get a job at some defense contractor and go about stealing from the inside. This is happening right now. We don't need another Clinton-esqe administration or some traitor to sell us out, it's built in now.



This is painfully true. I was not joking about Australia not possibly loosing sensitive technology before the U.S. It might even be a good idea to hire the Aussies to safeguard all of our top secret info. The U.S. has been sold out, but to who-that is the question.
The president still has a major impact on how well sensitive info is protected by his appointments to key positions and by direct order; so it is still an important factor. It's certainly not the only factor, but important none the less.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 29
RE: Australia wants the F-22 - 2/26/2008 8:14:55 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 17835
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

We'd be better off buying the Tomcats and AIM 54's the Yanks are throwing away.

Surely they'd be willing to part with a wing of F15E's too.


Not IMHO. The F-14 (much as I love them) is a naval fighter which means it is built to survive catapult take-offs and the controlled crashes that pass for their landings, so they're heavier than they need to be for our purposes. They're also a very complicated and expensive aircraft to maintain.

The F-15 is very good but was designed to defeat Soviet aircraft of the 80s and 90s. The real problem is the lack of stealth with these 4th generation designs. Stealth doesn't make you invisible, it reduces the distance at which you can be detected, giving those with it a massive tactical advantage.

They also can't supercruise and don't have internal weapons carriage. I could go on but in short, going for a budget option would be a false economy.

Cheers, Neilster



Minor nit-pick from an ex-Navy airdale. The F-14D's could supercruise. The GE engines in them really cranked up their flight performance. Nevertheless, no internal weapons storage, very high maintainance time and expenses compared to newer planes, and carrier capable frames if they are not flying from carriers are all reasons why they have been retired instead of sold off. The only selling point today would be the Phoenix missile's looooooong range.

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(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 30
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