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RE: WWII boming debate - 2/22/2008 10:55:43 PM   
Nomad

 

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For what it is worth, here is a Wiki page refernece: Bengal Famine of 1943

Interesting tidbit from it:

The Bengal government, which at the time had been mostly Indianized [6] reacted to the crisis lazily and incompetently, refusing to stop the export of food from Bengal. The people of Calcutta were also, by and large, indifferent to the fate of people starving. The commercial artist Satyajit Ray admitted he felt "a little callous" about the famine.

Although the British and US governments could have done more, it seems most of the problem was caused by the Indians themselves.

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Post #: 121
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/22/2008 10:59:44 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... What does one call an apologist who calls another an apologist?


A pair of apologists?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99
... I´m debating people who say the Japanese threatened Perry so he should have shelled Tokyo ...


Who said Perry should have shelled Edo? He threatened to do so in response to a "welcoming committee" of Japanese gunboats.

But the bottom line was that no one fired upon anyone in this early exchange of gunboat diplomacey.

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Post #: 122
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/22/2008 11:12:24 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

For what it is worth, here is a Wiki page refernece: Bengal Famine of 1943

Interesting tidbit from it:

The Bengal government, which at the time had been mostly Indianized [6] reacted to the crisis lazily and incompetently, refusing to stop the export of food from Bengal. The people of Calcutta were also, by and large, indifferent to the fate of people starving. The commercial artist Satyajit Ray admitted he felt "a little callous" about the famine.

Although the British and US governments could have done more, it seems most of the problem was caused by the Indians themselves.



So doe this mean the twisted version we are getting from another party is the result of revsionist history taught him in the schools of his country or merely his personal delusions?

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 123
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/22/2008 11:22:38 PM   
Nomad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

For what it is worth, here is a Wiki page refernece: Bengal Famine of 1943

Interesting tidbit from it:

The Bengal government, which at the time had been mostly Indianized [6] reacted to the crisis lazily and incompetently, refusing to stop the export of food from Bengal. The people of Calcutta were also, by and large, indifferent to the fate of people starving. The commercial artist Satyajit Ray admitted he felt "a little callous" about the famine.

Although the British and US governments could have done more, it seems most of the problem was caused by the Indians themselves.



So doe this mean the twisted version we are getting from another party is the result of revsionist history taught him in the schools of his country or merely his personal delusions?


The only thing I will say is if we are going to start throwing about accusations, then it is time to start providing links to some factual material. Whether or not anyone finds the Wiki reference I provided usefull or not is not my concern.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 2/22/2008 11:23:34 PM >


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Post #: 124
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/22/2008 11:33:24 PM   
tocaff


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I see that nothing changes, though the green button saves me from what I choose not to see.  Why is it that anyone would take on an argument against what seems to be everyone else?  Somebody must truly be stubborn and thick headed as all hell.  

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Post #: 125
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/23/2008 12:41:46 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

The only thing I will say is if we are going to start throwing about accusations, then it is time to start providing links to some factual material. Whether or not anyone finds the Wiki reference I provided usefull or not is not my concern.



Slavery was commonplace in the world three-hundred years ago. It's odd that its so closely associated with Westerners, seeing how they were the ones who ended it.

Mass starvation was very commonplace, on a regional basis, until the very end of the 20th century. Apart from the government induced variety, it's rare today. Again, it's the West that's largely responsible for the change.

Plague of all sorts held the population in most of the world in check throughout the course of history, recorded and otherwise, until vaccines were made widely available, again attributable to the West.

Now, with the discussion on the verge of yet another wild flight of tangential fancy and mindless equivocation, please tell me that you're not going to compare the unfortunate incident that's described above, a famine, with this:

http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~kunliu1/Nanjing_Massacre.html

Sir?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 2/23/2008 1:08:42 AM >


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Post #: 126
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/23/2008 1:15:16 AM   
Nomad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

The only thing I will say is if we are going to start throwing about accusations, then it is time to start providing links to some factual material. Whether or not anyone finds the Wiki reference I provided usefull or not is not my concern.



Slavery was commonplace in the world three-hundred years ago. It's odd that its so closely associated with Westerners, seeing how they were the ones who ended it.

Mass starvation was very commonplace, on a regional basis, until the very end of the 20th century. Apart from the government induced variety, it's rare today. Again, it's the West that's largely responsible for the change.

Plague of all sorts held the population in most of the world in check throughout the course of history, recorded and otherwise, until vaccines were made widely available, again attributable to the West.

Now, with the discussion on the verge of yet another wild flight of tangential fancy and mindless equivocation, please tell me that you're not going to compare the unfortunate incident that's described above, a famine, with this:

http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~kunliu1/Nanjing_Massacre.html

Sir?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




I don't understand why you are attacking me? Ike99 stated that the British were responsible for the Bengal Famine of 1943. I provided a link and and a tidbit from that link that indicates that the Indians were much more responsible for the famine than the British.

So, WTH are you doing accusing me of some kind of "wild flight of fancy and mindless equivocation?" Either get your damn facts right or back off PoE.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 2/23/2008 1:16:34 AM >


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Post #: 127
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/23/2008 1:48:49 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I don't understand why you are attacking me? Ike99 stated that the British were responsible for the Bengal Famine of 1943. I provided a link and and a tidbit from that link that indicates that the Indians were much more responsible for the famine than the British.

So, WTH are you doing accusing me of some kind of "wild flight of fancy and mindless equivocation?" Either get your damn facts right or back off PoE.



Nomad,

Please accept my humblest apology.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


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Post #: 128
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/23/2008 2:03:06 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

For what it is worth, here is a Wiki page refernece: Bengal Famine of 1943

Interesting tidbit from it:

The Bengal government, which at the time had been mostly Indianized [6] reacted to the crisis lazily and incompetently, refusing to stop the export of food from Bengal. The people of Calcutta were also, by and large, indifferent to the fate of people starving. The commercial artist Satyajit Ray admitted he felt "a little callous" about the famine.

Although the British and US governments could have done more, it seems most of the problem was caused by the Indians themselves.


You know, even if the famine was totally a product of food being diverted to feed troops, I don't see the action as being a terrible misdeed. A tragedy, yes, but not a crime.

It's important to note that there were hundreds of thousands of sub-continentals serving with the British and it's commonwealth. They had to be fed, too.

And I don't think that the Japanese would have spared India the depredations that they visited on their other subject populations, given the vicious strain of racism embraced by Tojo and the Emperor.

In the long run, the sacrifice helped save India from the nightmare scenario of Japanese occupation. That there foodstuffs helped make defeat of of that criminal regime possible, should be a source of pride to them all.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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Post #: 129
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/23/2008 2:34:49 AM   
Nomad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I don't understand why you are attacking me? Ike99 stated that the British were responsible for the Bengal Famine of 1943. I provided a link and and a tidbit from that link that indicates that the Indians were much more responsible for the famine than the British.

So, WTH are you doing accusing me of some kind of "wild flight of fancy and mindless equivocation?" Either get your damn facts right or back off PoE.



Nomad,

Please accept my humblest apology.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



Accepted, I'm sorry, I should not have gone off like that.


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Post #: 130
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/23/2008 3:32:20 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

“I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.”Winston Churchill 1942



For goodness sake, the man was an English politician.

I'm sure he said worse about the Irish on a daily basis.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


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Post #: 131
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/24/2008 2:37:14 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I see that nothing changes, though the green button saves me from what I choose not to see.  Why is it that anyone would take on an argument against what seems to be everyone else?  Somebody must truly be stubborn and thick headed as all hell.  


Well said that man!

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Post #: 132
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/24/2008 2:48:50 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

quote:


The British Empire was about, subjugation, humiliation and exploitation. Period. Have no illusions. Any resistance was met with brutal reprissals described as ¨glorious victories¨ in the propaganda.


The British Empire was mainly about trade. ( We also set most of it free eventually. ) Subjugation etc. came with Empire; as almost all white men ( Non-British included ) felt themselves superior to the "natives" and that they needed to set "modern" / Western laws/standards.
In a similar way the Samurai felt themselves superior to the Ashigaru; this was common in Britain also between the upper/middle and lower classes and it's therefore not much of a suprise that it was exported.

Resistance/rebellion has always met with brutal reprissals throughout history. Britain was no different here to anyone else, Japan included.

If the British Empire was as BAD as you suggust, why do you think most of our old colonies want to be part of the Commonwealth?

By the way, why is your FROM stated as "Tojo's Loins"?
If I was Japanese ( or picking something Japanese ) I certainly would not pick Tojo as anything to admire! Why not Yamamoto ( like the picture?) ?


What - no comments Ike99?

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Post #: 133
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/27/2008 8:46:37 PM   
ORANGE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99
quote:

Wirraway_Ace- I not sure I agree with your use of "the numbers" in this way. I am an economist by training, and all this really tells you is that Germany was able to increase production of key weapon systems in spite of the bombing. It doesn't tell you what their potential production was if their industries had been left alone.


Well it would be impossible to put a number on what German production would have been without strategic bombing but we can compare their rate of expansion with someone who wasn´t bombed at all.

Germany, total aircraft produced by year.

1942-12,822
1943-20,599
1944-35,076

So from 42´ to 43´ German aircraft production rose
by around 60%. From 43´ to 44´around 57%

USA, total aircraft production by year.

1942-46,907
1943-84,853
1944-96,271

So their expansion went 54%, from 42´to 43´. Then
from 43´to 44´ they had a growth rate of just
around 1%. I suppose the industrial base was
maxed out.

So as far as aircraft production is concerned I
would think the strategic bombing campaign had
at most a very minor effect if any at all. Germany
was able to expand it´s aircraft production by
actually a larger percentage than the USA who was
not being bombed at all.

I´m thinking what is effecting this a lot also is
simple manpower numbers. Getting pilots.

If you move over to armored vehicles etc, you will
find comparable numbers.

Take strictly tanks. Germany produced give or take
20,000 tanks during the war. The USA produced
61,000. About a 3-1 margin.

So by comparing tank production 3-1 total. Aircraft
production close to 3-1, I would conclude the
strategic bombing had about zero effect on German production, at least in these two categories.

You have Germany being bombed daylight and dark with the USA not being bombed at all and the production figures in these 2 areas, adjusting for the size of their respective industrial bases seems just about identical.

Now this does not take into account every single
item of war, artillery, etc., and I don´t feel like looking it up right now but unless you can show
me something else I still say the strategic bombing
campaign was a waste of resources. It didn´t do
much from what I see as far as reducing war time production.

One could say, well the Allies had to build all those
ships too so that used up a lot of their industrial
capacity but they would have had to build them
anyways.

I think I got all my numbers right. If not I´m sure I´ll be corrected.


Your numbers do nothing to support what you are trying to say. Comparing German production with US production also does not support what you are trying to prove at all.

You give numbers but not “facts” to support those numbers. The bombing campaign, whether you wish to admit it or not, did effect production and the German war effort. You give numbers but those numbers themselves do not include other factors such as the Germans not going into full war production (i.e.: Working more than a single shift in their factories which in theory should have tripled production but did not) until late in the war after the bombing campaign was in effect which skews your theory, quality not just numbers produced and transportation of the finished product to where it was needed after production. These are just a few points I can think of off the top of my head.

Comparing German production in Airplanes to US production in Airplanes tells us nothing. There are many factors that could have limited US production of Airplanes that have nothing to do with available materials or factory space.

From a timeline for the ME-262 alone:

• Feb. 1944 - allied bombardment of Messerschmitt factories delays initial production by two more months.
• April 1944 - the first production series of the Me-262 is destroyed in another allied bombardment of Messerschmitt factories. The Allies begin to concentrate bombing efforts in destroying the German oil industry.
• Aug. 1944 - Ploesti, Germany's only source of natural oil, is destroyed by systematic bombardments, and then occupied by the Russian army. The shortage of fuel quickly becomes unbearable, and until the end of the war the German Air Force will have much more aircraft than it can actually fly, because of fuel shortage. Furthermore, allied fighters achieve air superiority all over Germany, and will keep it until the end of the war. They also begin to raid German air bases. The Me-262 (bomber version) makes its debut, bombing mostly in France, causing insignificant damage.
• Sept. 1944 - The Luftwaffe's 60 Me-262 bombers are destroyed on the ground by American bombers. The Luftwaffe's first six evaluation Me-262 fighters are scrambled to protect them, but too late. (just imagine what if all the 66 Me-262s were operated by fighter pilots and scrambled..)

From the book Why the Allies Won "At the end of January 1945 Albert Speer and his ministerial colleagues met in Berlin to sum up what bombing had done to production schedules for 1944. They found that Germany had produced 35 percent fewer tanks than planned, 31 percent fewer aircraft and 42 percent fewer lorries as a result of bombing. The denial of these huge resources to German forces in 1944 fatally weakened their response to bombing and invasion and eased the path of Allied armies."

And Admiral Dönitz, noted in his memoirs that failure to get the revolutionary Type XXI U-boats into service was entirely the result of the bombing.

Your cherry picking of numbers does nothing to support your argument to an educated audience who knows better.

At the end of the day the fact remains that there was no need for allied bombing and it was a waste of lives and resources. Too bad that Germany and Japan did not realize this and pursued war and brutality making allied bombing a necessity.

If I could change one thing it would not be the bombing campaign it would be the barbaric cruelty and animal aggression on the part of Germany and Japan that made it necessary.


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Post #: 134
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/27/2008 10:11:39 PM   
Armygrognard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Imagine this for a moment. Truman tells McArthur..

...pass along to the Japanese, we will break our aggreement of no seperate peace with the communist, accept their surrender with the Emporer condition as soon as the Germans surrender. This is done.

There is no Iwo Jima
There is no Okinawa
No Hiroshima
No Nagasaki
No Korean War
China probably doesn´t go Communist
Possibly no Vietnam

You see? I just won WW2. Saved a lot of lives and stuck it to Uncle Joe all at the same time. Still came out smelling like a flower.

That´s why all this came out again in Korea when McArthur and Truman had their dust up. I´m sure McArthur threw it up in Trumans face they wouldn´t even be fighting Korea if he had just accepted Japanese surrender back in 44´.

Bad call.



You assume that Tojo would have accepted this. You can't expect your enemy to be rational.

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Post #: 135
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/28/2008 3:08:32 PM   
ezzler

 

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You should really also look at the German and UK production, not USA.
The USA never went into total war production like the other countries.
The USA still had many resources devoted to the production of civillian products. At any time it could have ignificantly increased its military production.

Further, the USA was supplying the WORLDS transport aircraft and military transport and shipping transport and locomotive and rollingstock needs. German military transport and railway production was woeful throughout the war.

What the figures do show is a willingness of the Germans to focus on key areas of production and to maximise those areas even at the expense of others.
Flak production and fighter production were high. Arguably these are the easiest items to mass produce along with small arms and vehicles so it was a sensible policy. Clearly tank , Maritime aircraft ,Bomber and transport aircraft,half track and lorries production was always inadequate even from 1940.

Comparing aircraft between countries is also a misleading exercise as the UK and USA produced vast fleets of 4 engined bombers that use far more resources and man hours and factory capacity to create than single engine fighters. And they were producing far far more twin engine aircraft than Germany, Italy or Japan also.

The Germans never had to concentrate on their navy at all. U boats and a handfull of coastal craft and destroyers.
Compare this to the production of Commonwealth and USA Navies and merchant marine.

I would guess the best ways to compare production is between Germany and USSR where small arms , tanks , armoured vehicles , single engined aircraft and AT AA and ART guns were the main productions. USSR production also suffered a 'shock' of relocation which must be the equal to some sort of strategic bombing.

The pictures of Nazi factories carved out of cliffs to prove that the bombing did not harm production surely demonstrates the opposite ?

What would be the cost in time, manpower and treasure to create these caverns? Only slaves would work in them. If the bombing was ineffective the factories would remain above ground where four walls and a roof are sufficient to protect them. The UK and USSR did not put production underground because they did not need to.

The strategic bombing campaign may well not have produced the Air Marshall's promises, but to dismiss it as totally ineffective is to ignore the evidence.

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Post #: 136
RE: WWII bombing debate - 2/28/2008 10:20:00 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

While I can't speak for anyone else I doubt any minds will be changed on either side.

Being ex-military my view is when confronted with aggression or war is brought to your very own doorstep you use any means neccesary to break the enemies will to fight or even think about waging war again.

The war was thrust upon the allies by aggressive nations that wanted to dominate the world.



Just to be clear, does this statement justify 9/11 as a response by Arabs to having war at their doorstep and troops on their land?

Are the thoughts behind the arguments really any different?

Articles 51 and 57 (Part IV) of the Geneva Convention Protocols now hold these actions as war crimes.

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Post #: 137
RE: WWII bombing debate - 2/28/2008 10:34:23 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Articles 51 and 57 (Part IV) of the Geneva Convention Protocols now hold these actions as war crimes.



What do articles enacted after ww2 have to do with this discussion?
What actions do you consider a war crime under arts. 51 and 57?



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Post #: 138
RE: WWII bombing debate - 2/28/2008 10:40:28 PM   
ORANGE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
Just to be clear, does this statement justify 9/11 as a response by Arabs to having war at their doorstep and troops on their land?

Are the thoughts behind the arguments really any different?

Articles 51 and 57 (Part IV) of the Geneva Convention Protocols now hold these actions as war crimes.

I believe the US was invited into Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? I may be missing something here so please let me know if I just don't get it.

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Post #: 139
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/28/2008 11:29:52 PM   
Carl Myers

 

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Imagine this for a moment. Truman tells McArthur..

...pass along to the Japanese, we will break our aggreement of no seperate peace with the communist, accept their surrender with the Emporer condition as soon as the Germans surrender. This is done.
BZZZT, the Potsdam meeting would have been a real hoot.
There is no Iwo Jima
BZZZT, already captured.
There is no Okinawa
BZZZT, the battle for Okinawa has been ongoing for 7 weeks.
No Hiroshima
No Nagasaki
BZZZT, with 'no need' to use A-bombs, the dozen cities that were on the A-bomb list get firebombed, you just increased the number of Japanese dead.
No Korean War
Correct, the Soviets overrun the whole pennisula.
China probably doesn´t go Communist
BZZZT, the Red army has been fighting the Japanese and the National government for years.
Possibly no Vietnam
Correct, with no French forces available to go into Indochina, the Viet Minh take charge.

And to those who wondered whether if Tojo would have surrendered in 1945? He lost power in July of 1944.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 140
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/28/2008 11:41:40 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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As a reminder to everyone, let's please keep this on topic - so the discussion should be about WWII and the historical bombing campaign and A-Bomb decision. Although that is a controversial topic, it's also an interesting one. Veering into discussions of modern times, extrapolating it to generalizations of the US or other countries, etc. is not staying on topic.

Also, as a general reminder - no personal attacks, stay civil, keep your cool and play nice with others.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 141
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/29/2008 9:44:20 AM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

Veering into discussions of modern times, extrapolating it to generalizations of the US or other countries, etc. is not staying on topic.


I teach history and government, and I ask my students these questions, as they are relevant.

One must consider the fact that people who lived in a different generation and under different circumstances had different views, but one must also consider that they lived in a time that was modern to them and their contemporaries.  In order to ask if the bombings of WWII were justified, we must examine international law as it stood at the time, what war crimes the losers of the war were convicted of after the war, and what new internation law was created as a reaction to the war.

We may also note that this discussion has modern relevance or parable.  It is a simple thing to say we were at war, and while at war their are no boundaries of warfare, but this not a constant state.  If we make that justification, then we can do little to not allow others to make that justification when we are viewed as the aggressor.  The United States was bombed at Pearl Harbor, which was certainly an act of war, but until September 11, 2001, the United States has not been exposed to the end of the spear on its native soil for over a half century.  It is relevant that we do not have a civilian population that, since the Civil War, has not had to suffer under the conditions that we often view so casually.

If my students can discuss this rationally, I would expect that the more experienced readers of this forum could do so as well.  If that is against the board policy, it is a shame, because if only a narrow view of history is observed, it will serve much less purpose to discuss this here.  As often is the case, there is no true right or wrong to these questions, there are only logical arguments for or against, and even those have shaded answers.

The ethics of warfare have long been a topic for debate, and they will long be in the future.

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Post #: 142
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/29/2008 6:54:15 PM   
mack2


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Germans/Japan started it, their populations bought into it, I would have had no problem with wiping out their entire populations if that was what had to happen to win the war.

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Post #: 143
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/29/2008 9:54:08 PM   
DEB


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From: Bristol , England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

The ethics of warfare have long been a topic for debate, and they will long be in the future.



But; as you were reminded, they are not the precise topic of debate here.

(Eric was just reminding you of the forum rules, from which you were straying. It all gets too complex otherwise.)

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 144
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/29/2008 10:09:07 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
If my students can discuss this rationally, I would expect that the more experienced readers of this forum could do so as well. If that is against the board policy, it is a shame, because if only a narrow view of history is observed, it will serve much less purpose to discuss this here. As often is the case, there is no true right or wrong to these questions, there are only logical arguments for or against, and even those have shaded answers.



Your students have an arbiter in the room and will be graded. As for our forum denizens: it usually ends up being a few that bring the rest down.

Matrix was quite open to deeper discussions and it caused them a lot of grief that eventually resulted in a stricter policy. Even with its limited scope, this discussion pushes that envelope. Kudos to Erik for being slow on the trigger.






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Post #: 145
RE: WWII boming debate - 2/29/2008 10:27:07 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33975
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
We may also note that this discussion has modern relevance or parable.


It certainly does, but that's out of the scope of discussion on this forum.

quote:

If my students can discuss this rationally, I would expect that the more experienced readers of this forum could do so as well.


Well, let me respond to these points in general to explain my experience on this to all.

Most here can, but some can't. I wish I could let such discussions go and trust that everyone would remain civil and rational. Due to past experience, we now keep discussions focused on the past and try to stay away from current politics, religion, etc. Keep in mind that what seems impersonal to you may be personal to someone else (perhaps one of their ancestors was involved) so controversial topics, especially those that involve as much passion as this one, must be approached carefully here.

What you also may not be aware of is the fact that this topic has a history, it started on the UV forum and was moved here. There's already been some friction in previous incarnations of this thread.

It's important to keep in mind that these boards serve as a place for our customers to share their interests, not as a place for one customer to upset another. Remember, we're here to sell games, not alienate people. There are a lot of other places where discussions are no-holds-barred, this isn't one of 'em. We want all customers to feel welcome here. While it's true that some people need a thicker skin and we'll allow a certain amount of latitude, we have become pretty cautious about letting things go.

With that said, unfortunately the lowest priority item on my list is forum moderation, so it is often infrequent and there are often threads that slip entirely under my radar (and that of the other Matrix staff). For this reason, sometimes it seems that our moderation is uneven (and it is, but because of lack of time and attention, not a difference in standards).

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development




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(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 146
RE: WWII boming debate - 3/1/2008 2:03:20 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

Well, in a probably vain attempt to drag back to topic, I would have to say that the Allied bombing campaign of Germany (unfortunately, I can't speak with any knowledge of the PTO) was absolutely pivotal to the Allied victory.

Suggesting that the German production figures went up anyway misses the point completely, that they didn't go up by much. Before total war was called and the economy fully mobilised, the Germans were not even running plants at three shifts per day. There was slack in the system and it was bombing's achievement that industrial expansion and that slack only amounted to the increases that it did.

Secondly, the bombing of cities had a number of deadly effects over and above deaths among war workers. To begin with, the Allies essentially dismantled the German transportation system in 1944/45. In 1945, factories were liberated in Germany that still had full tank parks, the vehicles immobilised because trains were hardly running. All train lines led through cities. The destruction of the cities fouled mile after mile of track at strategic points (rail lines generally met and intersected at Cities) with rubble. The marshalling yards inside cities were destroyed, engines blown up and repair facilities crippled. Simply turning engines around was difficult.

At it's height, over 1 million personnel (a number of who'm could have fought at the front) were deployed manning flak defences. Over 55000 anti aircraft pieces were deployed to defend the Reich. Many were of 88 calibre and if not shooting at Allied bombers would have been taking down Allied tanks at the front. Thousands of tonnes of concrete and other raw materials created shelters and flak towers.

Production suffered as much through the crippling of the railways as it did through direct bombing. Towards the end, entire factories sat idle because the railways could not get supplies of raw materials to them to produce their weapons, nor take the completed kit away.

Finally, the bombing forced the Germans to deploy hundreds of fighters on home soil, effectively ceding control of the air just about everywhere else. More importantly, this fighter force was decimated when the P-51 arrived in large numbers and began escorting the bombers. Over several months, the Luftwaffe was chooped to pieces in a series of gruelling attritional battles. With their losse high, their aircraft often sabotaged by foreign workers and their oil plants and railways bombed to the point that fuel was in short supply and replacement pilots could not be given much air time, the Luftwaffe was knocked out of the war.

All of this was a direct result of the Allied bomber offensive. We can call it immoral, we can deplore the killing of civilians, but we shouldn't lose sight of its pivotal role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

regards,
IronDuke



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Post #: 147
RE: WWII boming debate - 3/1/2008 2:54:06 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2456
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
Has anyone googled boming to see what exactly it has to do with WW2?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


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Post #: 148
RE: WWII boming debate - 3/1/2008 3:41:51 AM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mack2

Germans/Japan started it, their populations bought into it, I would have had no problem with wiping out their entire populations if that was what had to happen to win the war.


Yup...agree

(in reply to mack2)
Post #: 149
RE: WWII boming debate - 3/1/2008 4:08:58 AM   
panzers

 

Posts: 596
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Imagine this for a moment. Truman tells McArthur..

...pass along to the Japanese, we will break our aggreement of no seperate peace with the communist, accept their surrender with the Emporer condition as soon as the Germans surrender. This is done.

There is no Iwo Jima
There is no Okinawa
No Hiroshima
No Nagasaki
No Korean War
China probably doesn´t go Communist
Possibly no Vietnam

You see? I just won WW2. Saved a lot of lives and stuck it to Uncle Joe all at the same time. Still came out smelling like a flower.

That´s why all this came out again in Korea when McArthur and Truman had their dust up. I´m sure McArthur threw it up in Trumans face they wouldn´t even be fighting Korea if he had just accepted Japanese surrender back in 44´.
Interesting thiought. Woulda, shoulda, coulda, when it comes to war, there are so many little things like this that get overlooked. You have to think about what was going on at the time though. We were already getting in numerous situations of slaughter and torture from the internment camps just because we had the audacity to surrender to them.(I.E. Their bushido code). So I'm sure Truman, (and Roosevelt at the time) and his general staff had quite an ax to grind.

Bad call.



(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 150
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