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Paging Erik Rutins - 1/30/2008 1:32:19 AM   
vaalen

 

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Erik.
Can you tell us if Matrix has any plans to republish Age of Rifles?

I'd really appreciate any information you can give us.

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/30/2008 2:20:00 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Not something we're really looking into at this time as far as that specific title. I can say we did look into this in the past and at that time it was not possible for several reasons.

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Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to vaalen)
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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/30/2008 2:29:34 AM   
cdbeck


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I really wish I could page Erik Rutins. I would have him go get me some beer (especially any Vermont micro-brews that might use real Vermont maple syrup).



SoM


_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 3
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/30/2008 4:51:52 AM   
vaalen

 

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Erik,
I really appreciate your response. I'm truly sorry that you couldn't do the game the first time.

Since it is now several years later, and AOR is now over 10 years old, would it be possible to look at it again?

I and many other gamers would love to see what Matrix could do with this great game,especially after what you accomplished with steel panthers.

Please consider this post a request that everybody at Matrix once again consider republishing this game.

Thanks again,

vaalen

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 4
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/30/2008 11:01:31 AM   
ravinhood


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It costs money vaalen and getting a license to an older game is no easy task. Just ask Stardock as they tried to get the rights to Master of Magic an failed. You don't just say Oh I wanna redo Age of Rifles and everything becomes all easy and peachy king. The main reason for most games not getting remade is MONEY and LOTS OF IT. Most want a damn fortune for a silly game license. Just look at the money the Tolkien family rakes in off of Lord of the Rings. The big problem is most developers sell their rights to the games they made and while developers would probably be more likely to work something out, PUBLISHERS usually aren't. They are all bucking against each other trying to sell more and do more than the other. It's always about the mighty dollar in the long run.

If I were Matrixgames I would branch out and try to find and publish a game directed at the FEMALE market. Something like electronic darts that uses a males body for scoring points. ;) or Barbie goes to Boot Camp where it's kinda like the SIMS except it's a military base looking operation. Get em into the wargaming atmosphere. ;) I'm pretty sure Matrixgames already has the male computer wargaming business sewed up. But, to be a total success they really should try to bring in the female market. I think they should look into the history of female warriors and perhaps do some games on that history. Something where stomping males was prominent in their everyday lifestyle. Plus to get the guys to buy the game they should be half naked. ;) My last gf loved to play strategy type wargames, but, didn't like games like Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz. She much preferred to play games like Swords & Sorcery or Feudal or Magic the Gathering or Masters of Magic. She appeared to like "fantasy" strategy moreso than stuff during WW2. Perhaps that is the mindset a developer needs to go when making a game directed at the female market?

_____________________________

WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?



(in reply to vaalen)
Post #: 5
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/30/2008 6:23:05 PM   
vaalen

 

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Ravinhood, while you're generally right about licensing, whoever owns the patent for AOR doesn't care enough about it to protect it.

I say that because AOR is available for free download as "abandonware" on several sites. That was not true a few years ago, when matrix first looked at republishing the game.

Now, I'm not supporting the abandonware concept, and I'm not saying that Matrix should publish the game without the permission of whoever owns the copyright. They shouldn't.

What I am saying is that a license or release might be a lot easier to get now, since the owner is not protecting the patent. It is even possible that they might release it as freeware, which is possible, since many companies have done just that with really old games.

I still say Matrix should look into it.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 6
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/30/2008 6:41:04 PM   
ravinhood


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Yeah you let them start trying to publish it on a mainstream site (underdogs is not mainstream mind you) and watch the patent/copyright owners come out of the woodwork. They wouldn't even have to do it immediately they could sue them much later in the process. You have to know also it's a lot harder to stop an abandonware site from doing things by the owners of those games than it is someone who's established and making profit in the world like Matrixgames is. Putting one abandonware site down won't stop the game from being put out there for free, putting down a business like Matrixgames would be a castrophe to the market and them.

Now, as for "looking into it" that's all fine and dandy. But, if the owner can't be found or contacted or even doesn't want to be contacted then their hands are still tied. That's where law binds the hands of the honest and lets the criminals get away with offering all these games for free. It's like selling gold and ingame items on these mmorpgs, it's against the law of the EULA, but, it's not really against the "Law of the Land", nobody is going after these sweatshops and it's over a 6 billion dollar a year business now. I still don't put it past some like NCsoft and Sony doing it themselves and acting like they don't like it. lol Sony even has an open server or two in EQ2 that actually allows this activity as long as it is done within the confines of the game. As I said before it is usually all about the MONEY.

_____________________________

WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?



(in reply to vaalen)
Post #: 7
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 8:30:42 AM   
David Heath


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From: Staten Island NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vaalen

Ravinhood, while you're generally right about licensing, whoever owns the patent for AOR doesn't care enough about it to protect it.

I say that because AOR is available for free download as "abandonware" on several sites. That was not true a few years ago, when matrix first looked at republishing the game.

Now, I'm not supporting the abandonware concept, and I'm not saying that Matrix should publish the game without the permission of whoever owns the copyright. They shouldn't.

What I am saying is that a license or release might be a lot easier to get now, since the owner is not protecting the patent. It is even possible that they might release it as freeware, which is possible, since many companies have done just that with really old games.

I still say Matrix should look into it.


For the record we did try to get the rights to that but it just was not meant to be.

David





_____________________________


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Post #: 8
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 9:18:04 AM   
marcusm

 

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Why not revisit the Holistic Design deal? Those games needs new versions.

I need a new EFS.

As for Age of Rifles. How can it be hard to contact Norm Koger? He even answers normal emails. I wonder if the code was simply too messy to update. This is basically a one man project after all.

< Message edited by marcusm -- 1/31/2008 9:21:30 AM >

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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 10:04:07 AM   
ravinhood


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My guess is Norm sold or transferred or gave the rights to SSI which was bought out by EA I believe first then later by Interplay or Ubisoft or another publishing company which later just defunked SSI games. It's been awhile since I read all that mess in the gaming magazines, but, that's what flashing through my mind. Norm doesn't own the rights to AOR anymore would appear to be the reason it's not easy for Matrixgames to get the deal to remake/republish it. Especially if an operating publisher has the copyrights on it like Ubisoft. Some of these old titles copyrights move around so much it's hard to keep up with who has them these days. But, to just sit on them and do nothing with them is a shame since some of them are worth a sequel or reviving.



_____________________________

WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?



(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 10
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 11:09:09 AM   
vaalen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaalen

Ravinhood, while you're generally right about licensing, whoever owns the patent for AOR doesn't care enough about it to protect it.

I say that because AOR is available for free download as "abandonware" on several sites. That was not true a few years ago, when matrix first looked at republishing the game.

Now, I'm not supporting the abandonware concept, and I'm not saying that Matrix should publish the game without the permission of whoever owns the copyright. They shouldn't.

What I am saying is that a license or release might be a lot easier to get now, since the owner is not protecting the patent. It is even possible that they might release it as freeware, which is possible, since many companies have done just that with really old games.

I still say Matrix should look into it.


For the record we did try to get the rights to that but it just was not meant to be.

David





David,
I want to thank you for trying to get the rights to the game.It must have been very frustrating. I have no idea what the issues were, but one very important factor has changed.

I'm pretty sure that your first attempt to get the rights happened several years ago. It's been my experience that much can change with the passage of years.

Would you consider making an inquiry to see if things have changed? To see if it might be possible to get the rights now, instead of then?

Whether or not you decide to make this inquiry, I want to thank you
and everybody at Matrix for what you have done for historical gaming. When SSI and Talonsoft went down, You stepped right up to the plate and did more than anybody else to save PC Wargames. I really appreciate what you did.

Best wishes,

vaalen

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 11
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 11:25:16 AM   
marcusm

 

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Well, they do have Horse and Musket.

Rather than remakes I would like to see a new fresh approach to the "Age of Rifles".



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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 11:55:58 AM   
Adraeth


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Well, indeed the Idea to make available old games in a modern-fashion is really good, for any of them... for example the Battleground games are really appreciated and i think Matrix will try to develop many others.

Horse and Musket is another example.. so i am confident

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Periods i like: age of muskets, napoleonics, modern combat.

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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 1:17:43 PM   
Hertston


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From: Cornwall, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcusm

Rather than remakes I would like to see a new fresh approach to the "Age of Rifles".



Would it still be Age of Rifles, though? It would need substantial upgrading anyway in regard of O/S compatability, screen resolutions and so forth which, if you stuck in the expansion scenarios as well, would make an excellent package. A 'new, fresh approach' in other respects seems rather counter-productive as surely the reason so many people want this particular oldie (far more than any other game) to make a come-back is that they liked the original approach?

(in reply to marcusm)
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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 2:00:21 PM   
marcusm

 

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But since that option is out then other avenues could be investigated.

There are many ways one can re-imagine The Age of Rifles. I think the new Horse
and Musket comes closest for now.

(in reply to Hertston)
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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 7:36:15 PM   
vaalen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcusm

But since that option is out then other avenues could be investigated.

There are many ways one can re-imagine The Age of Rifles. I think the new Horse
and Musket comes closest for now.


We do not not know that option is out at this time. Certainly it did not happen the first time Matrix tried, but that was several years ago and this is now.

The situation may be different today, and its worth finding out.

I have the original Horse and Musket, and every other game using that system. While these are good games, they cannot hold a candle to AOR. The interface is time consuming and clunky, and it can take a very long time to move your units.The A.I. cannot attack effectively, no matter how much it outnumbers you. It was advised at one point that you only play the weaker side, and never play with the AI on the offensive, This could actually work in Frederick the Great scenarios because it did simulate the incompetence of many of Fredericks opponents. However, I never lost a battle to the AI. Not even once. As the swedes, I shattered the russians every time in the Poltava scenario. In AOR, I was defeated by the AI so many times I can't even count them, offensively and defensively.

While I hope that Matrix will improve the interface and AI in Horse and Musket, it hasn't happened yet.

AOR was published in 1996. No other game on the subject has even come close. As notagrog said in another thread, AOR is easy to learn , and difficult to master.

If Matrix could do with AOR what it has done with the operational art of war and steel panthers, This excellent game would be even better.

(in reply to marcusm)
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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 7:40:25 PM   
vaalen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston


quote:

ORIGINAL: marcusm

Rather than remakes I would like to see a new fresh approach to the "Age of Rifles".



Would it still be Age of Rifles, though? It would need substantial upgrading anyway in regard of O/S compatability, screen resolutions and so forth which, if you stuck in the expansion scenarios as well, would make an excellent package. A 'new, fresh approach' in other respects seems rather counter-productive as surely the reason so many people want this particular oldie (far more than any other game) to make a come-back is that they liked the original approach?


Hertson, I could not agree more. We do want the original approach, modified to work with modern Operating systems. We want that approach because it worked so much better that anything else, before or since, and because it was so much fun.

Thanks

vaalen

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 17
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 9:05:03 PM   
marcusm

 

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Don't forget the Take 2 Manassas system in that case. It is in it's own league currently when
it comes to simulating "Age of Rifles" style combat.

I am quite sure if Norm himself started working on AoR today he would use current technology.
Which is apparently what he is doing with his new wargaming engine.

And personally I don't think there's any economy for Matrixgames to rehash the old game but I might be wrong.

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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 10:09:52 PM   
ravinhood


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I myself would like to see some new "creative imaginations" out of Matrixgames myself instead of all these rehashes of old games. Geesh we have enough of repeats of stuff already and I can play AOR with DOSBOX so I don't really see a need for a remake of AOR right now. Let's get back to the ANCIENTS Matrixgames peoples. ;) Let's make a Mad Minutelike combat engine with turn based Total War Strategy and a diplomacy AI from one of the better diplomacy AI games... ;) Put that all into one game from the dawn of man to ww2 and that should last us a lifetime. ;) Don't make the ages go by too fast though. That is what ruins most RTS games for me, the ages just fly by and some dude is still in the bronze age while another is in bioengineering of the 21st century lol.

I do agree with one thing. Mad Minute has the best real time combat engine I've ever played except maybe Sacrifice. I like them both about equally. Of course I like Mad Minutes a touch more because it depicts the civil war era. I can only visulize a Mad Minute Ancients battle using their engine and I hope I get to see it from someone for real before I die. Creative Assemblys combat engine does not even comes close to the battle AI of Take Command. Take Commands battle AI isn't braindead like the Total Wars is after MTW origional. I also like how in Mad Minutes games I can actually take the time to watch part of the battle play out or pan the camara and just watch it like a movie.

_____________________________

WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?



(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 19
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 11:18:14 PM   
Valkyrie


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From: Somewhere in Time
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

If I were Matrixgames I would branch out and try to find and publish a game directed at the FEMALE market. Something like electronic darts that uses a males body for scoring points. ;) or Barbie goes to Boot Camp where it's kinda like the SIMS except it's a military base looking operation. Get em into the wargaming atmosphere. ;) I'm pretty sure Matrixgames already has the male computer wargaming business sewed up. But, to be a total success they really should try to bring in the female market. I think they should look into the history of female warriors and perhaps do some games on that history. Something where stomping males was prominent in their everyday lifestyle. Plus to get the guys to buy the game they should be half naked. ;) My last gf loved to play strategy type wargames, but, didn't like games like Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz. She much preferred to play games like Swords & Sorcery or Feudal or Magic the Gathering or Masters of Magic. She appeared to like "fantasy" strategy moreso than stuff during WW2. Perhaps that is the mindset a developer needs to go when making a game directed at the female market?


A nice sentiment, but half naked female game characters are not going to endear you to your desired female audience (though it would be popular with the guys, I'm sure).

I would suggest a "Myst" type experience with lots of combat action by a team of cute, hunky guys, who serve and protect their mistress as she quests to solve the mysteries and regain her throne (or whatever other goal). Yep, definitely cute, hunky, well-hung guys, with bulging muscles and adoring looks at our heroine... of course, that approach probably won't sit too well with the male gaming audience. The emphasis should be intellectual challenge, beautiful scenery, and female oriented "eye candy"... maybe even a seduction or two to motivate "the troops" and maybe a romantic twist or two. OH yea, and all of the magic would come from our sorceress heroine.. let the male characters do the heavy lifting and fighting at her direction.

It would still be a long shot though for commercial success.

_____________________________

Signature? Maybe someday over the rainbow.

(in reply to ravinhood)
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RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 1/31/2008 11:35:57 PM   
marcusm

 

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From: Göteborg/Sweden
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I agree fully with Ravinhood.

How is wargaming ever going to be reinvigorated if all we see is rehashes with DOS graphics?
This hobby needs new recruits and thus games need to re-visit rather than copy old themes.

In movies there is a term called "re-imagined". This is what I want to see.
Look for instance how many times Jane Austens books have been re-intepreted. No need to clone old attempts.

< Message edited by marcusm -- 1/31/2008 11:36:03 PM >

(in reply to Valkyrie)
Post #: 21
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 2/1/2008 1:00:32 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Valkyrie


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

If I were Matrixgames I would branch out and try to find and publish a game directed at the FEMALE market. Something like electronic darts that uses a males body for scoring points. ;) or Barbie goes to Boot Camp where it's kinda like the SIMS except it's a military base looking operation. Get em into the wargaming atmosphere. ;) I'm pretty sure Matrixgames already has the male computer wargaming business sewed up. But, to be a total success they really should try to bring in the female market. I think they should look into the history of female warriors and perhaps do some games on that history. Something where stomping males was prominent in their everyday lifestyle. Plus to get the guys to buy the game they should be half naked. ;) My last gf loved to play strategy type wargames, but, didn't like games like Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz. She much preferred to play games like Swords & Sorcery or Feudal or Magic the Gathering or Masters of Magic. She appeared to like "fantasy" strategy moreso than stuff during WW2. Perhaps that is the mindset a developer needs to go when making a game directed at the female market?


A nice sentiment, but half naked female game characters are not going to endear you to your desired female audience (though it would be popular with the guys, I'm sure).

I would suggest a "Myst" type experience with lots of combat action by a team of cute, hunky guys, who serve and protect their mistress as she quests to solve the mysteries and regain her throne (or whatever other goal). Yep, definitely cute, hunky, well-hung guys, with bulging muscles and adoring looks at our heroine... of course, that approach probably won't sit too well with the male gaming audience. The emphasis should be intellectual challenge, beautiful scenery, and female oriented "eye candy"... maybe even a seduction or two to motivate "the troops" and maybe a romantic twist or two. OH yea, and all of the magic would come from our sorceress heroine.. let the male characters do the heavy lifting and fighting at her direction.

It would still be a long shot though for commercial success.


I like that idea Valkyrie as long as the female focus character is HOT. Yah gotta have HOT for the guys to buy it. You wouldn't believe how many guys play female characters in these online mmo's/mmorpgs, hell, I do it from time to time because I mean why would I want to look at some dudes butt the entire time I am playing the game? lol I have a HOT Kursick warrior class female in Guild Wars and she's got some HOT armor on while I play. ;)

I'm more looking for something to bring the female to wargaming or strategy gaming though than role playing. We already have them in roleplaying in fact. Around 40% last I read are playing mmo's/mmorpgs now up from like 13% back in 1998. But, we don't have those figures in wargaming. I wanna gal that wants to FIGHT me. ;) In a game of course. ;) We need a game that will bring them to wargaming, as well as have guys buy the game. That's the issue and the problem. What type of wargame would that be? I like the concept behind "Barbie" goes to boot camp and then create some type of wargame from that with sequels of Barbie goes to WW2 haha. ;)


_____________________________

WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?



(in reply to Valkyrie)
Post #: 22
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 2/1/2008 8:10:45 AM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
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From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline
Hi Guys

Let me be clear here.  We have attempted to move forward on the AOR deal in the past and its just not going to happen. I truly feel that the new Horse and Musket engine will far better answer for most gamers interested in this era.  Matrix releases many new titles and have release many classic games. These classic games are not just re-hashed titles.  We like to update and add new life into these titles that means we also need source code and a dedicated team to work on them with us.  

I thank you for the praise but I also want you to thank and remember the development teams that stick with us and help us bring new life into these classic games.  It is truly a community effort between the fans, Matrix Games and the development teams that makes this work so well.



< Message edited by David Heath -- 2/1/2008 8:19:35 AM >


_____________________________


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Post #: 23
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 2/1/2008 6:15:48 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
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From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath
I truly feel that the new Horse and Musket engine will far better answer for most gamers interested in this era. 


David, could you clarify what era? As far as I am aware (not having played Horse and Musket) they deal with different periods. AoR to me was always all about ACW, the Zulu wars, Little Big Horn and such. People did 18th century and Napoleonic stuff, but the game didn't ship with it. Will the new H&M include scenarios that relate to the "age of rifles" as well as "age of muskets"? Will a future game in the series cover the 19th century?


< Message edited by Hertston -- 2/1/2008 6:18:33 PM >

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 24
RE: Paging Erik Rutins - 2/2/2008 8:09:20 AM   
vaalen

 

Posts: 384
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hi Guys

Let me be clear here. We have attempted to move forward on the AOR deal in the past and its just not going to happen. I truly feel that the new Horse and Musket engine will far better answer for most gamers interested in this era. Matrix releases many new titles and have release many classic games. These classic games are not just re-hashed titles. We like to update and add new life into these titles that means we also need source code and a dedicated team to work on them with us.

I thank you for the praise but I also want you to thank and remember the development teams that stick with us and help us bring new life into these classic games. It is truly a community effort between the fans, Matrix Games and the development teams that makes this work so well.



David

So be it. It is a real shame that the AOR deal will never work out.
While I'm very disappointed, I understand what you wrote.

I hope the revised horse and musket system will have better A.I., and that some version of it will cover the age of rifles.

I do appreciate the development teams, most of them ( I don't appreciate developers who abandon their games and leave you and the fans hung out to dry ). I've just started to post, but I've been here since the beginning. I've seen what you started with and where you've gone. The praise is deserved.

Best wishes

vaalen

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 25
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