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I need a tutorial - 1/22/2008 1:21:17 PM   
nukkxx5058


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Hi just dowloaded the game and I never played the boardgame version before so I am a complete newbe at EIA. The manual is definitely not sufficient to step in the game.

I need a tutorial.

Does it exist somewhere or is matrix going to write one ?

thx
Post #: 1
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/22/2008 1:56:29 PM   
ess1

 

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Me too! No proper tutorial, as far as I know, exists.
Hope springs eternal...

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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/22/2008 2:59:31 PM   
pzgndr

 

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I never played EiA either. Best way to learn something like this is by doing. Skim the manual to get an idea of things. Play some to learn the interface. Read some more of the manual. Play some more. Try playing several months of each country to get a feel for its capabilities and limitations, and to see how different situations develop with the AI on easy/medium settings. (The AI has its weaknesses but provides a useful tutoring role.) At some point, sit down with the manual and start to study it. Then start playing against increasing difficulty settings. And read these forums, ask questions, get tips, etc.

After several weeks now, I am still making stupid mistakes as I blunder along to higher peaks of glory. But every game is interesting and fun. Each major power has its own unique challenges and rewards. You really have to see things in action during several games to appreciate the nuances. A tutorial would help teach the mechanics of a game turn, but these things can still be learned in a few days. And most of the game mechanics are really simple once you know what they do and where to go in the interface. The manual does explain most of these things well enough.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/22/2008 5:11:57 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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You might want to take a few notes with screenshots and post a quick tutorial as you learn the game.

It would be very helpful for those people who are new to the game.



GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/22/2008 5:14:37 PM >

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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/22/2008 5:35:20 PM   
nukkxx5058


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yes the game is quite unstandard and it is not easy at all to start with the sole manual ans no previous experience with EIA boardgame .... any grognard willing to write a tutorial?

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Post #: 5
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/26/2008 11:24:47 PM   
nukkxx5058


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it is a real pain to get started with the game for players without previous EIA boardgame knowledge. This is very frustrating. I really encourage matrix (or a voluntary grognard) to write a tutorial for the benefit of the rest of us.

Without a tutorial, it seems impossible to step into the game for average IQ guys ...

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 6
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 12:15:14 AM   
Soapy Frog

 

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It's a pain even WITH prior knowledge of the board game ;)

I agree there should be a tutorial. In fact the process of making a tutorial may actually help the developer improve his process/interface.

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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 1:11:00 AM   
TheHellPatrol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

I need a tutorial.

Does it exist somewhere or is matrix going to write one ?

thx
I thought of warning you when you asked if it was worth buying, but i've been quiet about it until now. Ralegh, who wrote "Ralegh's guide" had said awhile back he was going to write up a turn by turn tutorial. It hasn't happened and he has been missing or away from the forums. As a newbie this game is unplayable imo, it isn't any fun trying to even start a game. Matrix should have released a guide like Witp had at release and like Armageddon Empires did to ease new players into the game.
Thanks to Bill Harris of Dubious Quality i am enjoying Armageddon Empires, This "Empires" game...Empire in Arms...is taking up space on my hardrive. So what if its "advanced"? Witp is but was a cinch to play...this game is beyond frustrating. This of course is my opinion and i have decided to move my attention to more entertaining, less obtuse games as of late...life is too short.


_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau


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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 3:08:20 AM   
pzgndr

 

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Grasshoppers, you must print out the manual, lay each page end-to-end, and when you are able to walk the length of the manual then you will be ready to play.

Kung Fu

Seriously, it isn't that difficult. RTFM. The manual covers about 90% of everything you need to play. Another 10% or so is a little obscure and you need to look through some of these forum posts for tips and tidbits. I never played EiA before this and got up to speed in a couple of days.

Learning how to really play this game well takes considerably longer. No tutorial is going to cover that. I've played through a couple of years as each major power and every game is different, the challenges change as often as wars are declared and peaces are agreed upon, and the best way to understand the nuances is to play the game and see things in action. Give yourselves a chance to learn by doing, make some mistakes against the AI opponents, and try doing different stuff. Have some fun with it.



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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 3:24:03 AM   
TheHellPatrol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Grasshoppers, you must print out the manual, lay each page end-to-end, and when you are able to walk the length of the manual then you will be ready to play.

Give yourselves a chance to learn by doing, make some mistakes against the AI opponents, and try doing different stuff. Have some fun with it.

The manual covers the rules, it doesn't tell you what/how to click to get what you need to do done...hell...it doesn't even tell you in what order to do things:why can't i start? Oh, i didn't place all my units, why does it tell me i didn't set my victory conditions? I need to set them...hmmm...how/what/where? I have played many, many games at 45 years old and i haven't seen anything like this since RGW/AGW which i could manage with trial and error. This game demands a walkthrough, again its just my opinion as i think personally i've lost interest in this game...too much work required for a work in progress.


_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau


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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 3:31:42 AM   
zaquex


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The manual describes how the game works, and what you should be able to do. Sadly it gives very limited information about the actual UI, and how to do it.

It is however very possible to figure it out, especially if you have read the manual. Most people seem to read it again while they test and try, also the forum is usually a very good source for help.

My advice would be to start with Austria as you can ignore the naval rules wich can be good for a first game, it gives one set of rules less to think about. 

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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 10:30:31 AM   
nukkxx5058


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Grasshoppers, you must print out the manual, lay each page end-to-end, and when you are able to walk the length of the manual then you will be ready to play.

Give yourselves a chance to learn by doing, make some mistakes against the AI opponents, and try doing different stuff. Have some fun with it.

The manual covers the rules, it doesn't tell you what/how to click to get what you need to do done...hell...it doesn't even tell you in what order to do things:why can't i start? Oh, i didn't place all my units, why does it tell me i didn't set my victory conditions? I need to set them...hmmm...how/what/where? I have played many, many games at 45 years old and i haven't seen anything like this since RGW/AGW which i could manage with trial and error. This game demands a walkthrough, again its just my opinion as i think personally i've lost interest in this game...too much work required for a work in progress.



This is exactly what I feel and I also have the very frustrating you-didn't-set-victory-condtions message and no idea how to get rid of it.

A tutorial is needed asap ...

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)
Post #: 12
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 3:47:12 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

This game demands a walkthrough


Yes it does. Wargamer.com should be posting a lengthy review one of these days soon. Maybe that will help.

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Post #: 13
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 3:53:14 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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A quick start guide showing basic unit placement, movement, supply, combat, diplomacy settings and economics would be very useful.

The amount of information can be staggering and looking through the manual is like reading War and Peace. Unfortunately the manual, as it stands, is nothing more than a manifesto of various conditions and rules with a seasoning of complex charts and tables. In my opinion it is more useful as a guide to how the game was programmed. A quick start guide would really help.

A description of the information on the various UI screens is highly recommended.

This problem is the single most important issue facing this game. Programming bugs and a special needs AI are important to address but we will lose the newcomers unless we address this issue as soon as possible. Maintaining and growing the fan base is critical for commercial success.

The lack of a coherent beginners guide could cause this game to die on the vine.




GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/27/2008 4:34:03 PM >

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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 8:52:47 PM   
Murat


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OK starting one in the WAR ROOM.

< Message edited by Murat -- 2/10/2008 7:38:16 PM >

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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 11:33:46 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Read the tips I and others have been posting in the forum titled "The War Room". This will give you strategic and tactical tips.

Then, play against the computer. The interface may trip you up at first, but it doesn't take too long to learn the important stuff. Some of the more esoteric stuff will come later, with practice.

Finally, get into a game with humans, but make it a "tutorial game". In other words, the people aren't interested so much in winning as they are in showing how to play.

This is easily one of the most complex games ever created. Expert players still have to go to the rulebooks for answers. Games like Star Fleet Battles had a lot more rulebooks, and seeming complexity, but it was all the same stuff using different words. In EiA, every rule stands by itself as well as with the others. Even ASL would be hard-pressed to call itself more complex, although, it would be close.

You're going to find that the order of elements of the phases, and of the phases themselves, really does matter. Diplomacy is a critical element. Now, EiANW is "dumbed down" from the original board game, simple because it's not yet possible to write computer games this complex. But, it still retains a huge part of the complexity that makes players who like turn into players who love it.

NOBODY who plays this game for the first time against experienced players has a chance of winning, if the experienced players are in it for a "win at all costs" mentality. But, if you can find players willing to help rather than attack for that first game, you will learn a lot.

I do not believe a tutorial can come anywhere close to teaching this game. At best, it can mirror what playing against the AI does now: Provide an opponent to do a few things. You really want a human "tutor" rather than a computer tutorial. IMO.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Murat)
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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/27/2008 11:52:29 PM   
Jimmer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

This is exactly what I feel and I also have the very frustrating you-didn't-set-victory-condtions message and no idea how to get rid of it.

A tutorial is needed asap ...

6.4.2 Suing for peace (pg 36 of the online manual)

"A major power wishing to accept the condition surrender of another major power must have checked off the "Give Conditional" box in the Victory Conditions Screen (sic)."

Hmm. What's the "Victory Conditions screen"? Hover over all those buttons on top of the interface screen. One of them (the eighth one from the left) is titled "View Current Surrender Conditions". Could that be it? Click it, and up pops a screen titled "Victory Conditions For sic Austria" (I happen to be playing Austria right now; the title changes for each major power). If I knew how to paste in a picture, I would show it to you.

Notice that you are at war (you wouldn't get that message if you were not at war with any major powers). Highlight the line corresponding to that enemy. Remembering that this is a "play by email" game, you have to pre-set your victory conditions. The board game would allow these steps to occur one at a time, but that would make it take many years to play this on a computer. So, they combined them all right here.

For example, check the box "Give Conditional" "Yes". Now, if this power sues for peace, you will offer them a conditional peace (which they cannot turn down -- they could turn down an unconditional). Then, to the right are all of the available victory conditions. Pick which ones you want, and move them up and down so they are in the order you would prefer to have them (if you got them all -- this is NOT guaranteed).

If you have an ally, you have the option of allowing that ally to get out with a separate peace (or not). Etc.

Once you have made any selections here (even if incomplete), the game will no longer keep asking you over and over again. Unless someone ELSE goes to war with you.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 17
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 12:14:21 AM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

The manual covers the rules, it doesn't tell you what/how to click to get what you need to do done...hell...it doesn't even tell you in what order to do things:why can't i start? Oh, i didn't place all my units, why does it tell me i didn't set my victory conditions? I need to set them...hmmm...how/what/where? I have played many, many games at 45 years old and i haven't seen anything like this since RGW/AGW which i could manage with trial and error. This game demands a walkthrough, again its just my opinion as i think personally i've lost interest in this game...too much work required for a work in progress.


So Elliott, I take it I should pass on this one?

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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 1:13:34 AM   
TheHellPatrol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

So Elliott, I take it I should pass on this one?
I'm sure there's a great game in there...somewhere...i think...


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A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau


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Post #: 19
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 1:15:10 AM   
Murat


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There is!!!

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)
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RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 1:44:59 AM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

There is!!!


Most every post I have read is unhappy. Except yours.

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Post #: 21
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 5:01:14 AM   
Grapeshot Bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

This is exactly what I feel and I also have the very frustrating you-didn't-set-victory-condtions message and no idea how to get rid of it.

A tutorial is needed asap ...

6.4.2 Suing for peace (pg 36 of the online manual)

"A major power wishing to accept the condition surrender of another major power must have checked off the "Give Conditional" box in the Victory Conditions Screen (sic)."

Hmm. What's the "Victory Conditions screen"? Hover over all those buttons on top of the interface screen. One of them (the eighth one from the left) is titled "View Current Surrender Conditions". Could that be it? Click it, and up pops a screen titled "Victory Conditions For sic Austria" (I happen to be playing Austria right now; the title changes for each major power). If I knew how to paste in a picture, I would show it to you.

Notice that you are at war (you wouldn't get that message if you were not at war with any major powers). Highlight the line corresponding to that enemy. Remembering that this is a "play by email" game, you have to pre-set your victory conditions. The board game would allow these steps to occur one at a time, but that would make it take many years to play this on a computer. So, they combined them all right here.

For example, check the box "Give Conditional" "Yes". Now, if this power sues for peace, you will offer them a conditional peace (which they cannot turn down -- they could turn down an unconditional). Then, to the right are all of the available victory conditions. Pick which ones you want, and move them up and down so they are in the order you would prefer to have them (if you got them all -- this is NOT guaranteed).

If you have an ally, you have the option of allowing that ally to get out with a separate peace (or not). Etc.

Once you have made any selections here (even if incomplete), the game will no longer keep asking you over and over again. Unless someone ELSE goes to war with you.


Try to keep it positive Jimmer.

This guy just dropped 60 bucks on something he can't use. He has a right to a useful manual.

We have to stop blaming people for wanting a manual.

We have to make sure people don't feel stupid for wanting instructions.

If people read these forums and get the idea that this game is for insiders only, the game will die.




GSB

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 22
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 5:09:00 AM   
Alex777


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<< This guy just dropped 60 bucks on something he can't use. He has a right to a useful manual. ...
We have to stop blaming people for wanting a manual. >>

Exactly. 

As I understand things, the Manual was the responsibility of Matrix Games not Marshall.

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
Post #: 23
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 5:28:34 AM   
gwheelock

 

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Everyone is complaining about the manual not showing what to click - IT DOES!
>>> IF YOU ARE USING THE CORRECT MANUAL <<<

You want to use the one accessable from this screen (not the one from the questionmark
inside the game) :





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
Post #: 24
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 5:35:32 AM   
gwheelock

 

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THIS copy of the manual shows all of the buttons & a description of their use.

For example - here is button labeled "Victory Conditions Screen" that the original
poster was trying to find:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 25
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 5:45:52 AM   
gwheelock

 

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The main manual has 123 pages & is cross-indexed.




Could it be better - the answer to that always has to be YES; but
I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect someone to actually
READ the manual before complaining about the deficiencies in it.

(& Someone complained that the manual was "pieces of the original
board game manual" [may have been on another thread] - please
remember that us "oldies" LEARNED THE GAME from that BOARDGAME
manual - no tips; no tutorials & mostly no-one to even ask questions
of)



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gwheelock -- 1/28/2008 5:46:31 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 5:48:31 AM   
Grapeshot Bob


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The problem is that the manual shows an icon with no explanation.

The player wants to know how the victory conditions he chooses work.

The logic behind each of the possible choices isn't fully explained. Apparently only a few victory conditions can be awarded to a player, this should be explained. What does a "Royal Wedding" do?

Just because people who played board games had to interpret the rules doesn't mean we have to. Every competent computer game has a fairly good manual.



GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/28/2008 5:50:44 AM >

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Post #: 27
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 5:53:54 AM   
TheHellPatrol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grapeshot Bob

The problem is that the manual shows an icon with no explanation.

The player wants to know how the victory conditions he chooses work.

The logic behind each of the possible choices isn't fully explained. Apparently only a few victory conditions can be awarded to a player, this should be explained. What does a "Royal Wedding" do?

Just because people who played board games had to interpret the rules doesn't mean we have to. Every competent computer game has a fairly good manual.



GSB
Exactly, of course i know HOW to change/set my VC's when i can't proceed with my turn after i finally fricken placed my fricken units....but WHY? What are the ramifications?


_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau


(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
Post #: 28
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 6:03:28 AM   
gwheelock

 

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From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grapeshot Bob

The problem is that the manual shows an icon with no explanation.

The player wants to know how the victory conditions he chooses work.

The logic behind each of the possible choices isn't fully explained. Apparently only a few victory conditions can be awarded to a player, this should be explained. What does a "Royal Wedding" do?

Just because people who played board games had to interpret the rules doesn't mean we have to. Every competent computer game has a fairly good manual.



GSB
Exactly, of course i know HOW to change/set my VC's when i can't proceed with my turn after i finally fricken placed my fricken units....but WHY? What are the ramifications?



Do you mean something like ... THIS




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 29
RE: I need a tutorial - 1/28/2008 6:35:37 AM   
Grapeshot Bob


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My question was rhetorical!

There are some very simple things that should be explained at the start. What do the numbers on the map mean? How about the ports? How about the number of spires on each city? What about the combat tables? Oy, don't get me started on combat tables. Choosing "chits" shouldn't require a Ph.D. in Quantum Physics. A player should have a rough idea about which tactics will have which results in what terrain against certain enemy formations.

What I have been saying all along is that we need a quick start guide. The manual is over 120 pages long. I'm thinking 10 pages of quick, focussed information.

I don't want to put too fine a point on it but I've been gaming for over 30 years. Both board and computer games. The lack of a tutorial or, in its place, a quick start guide is a serious oversight in a game of this breadth.



GSB

(in reply to gwheelock)
Post #: 30
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