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RE: RHS ship production

 
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RE: RHS ship production - 1/21/2008 10:38:40 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Problem still present even with the files from your scen folder el cid.

Can you please tell us in detail where you see the expected numbers? I tried the "WIP Database Editor 6.0.exe" and "WIP Database Editor 1.0.exe", both in the SCEN subfolder of my RHS installation and the build rate and pool for device slots 522...524 are 0. As the numbers I see in the game differ I guess there might be the right thing going on, but I cannot see it in the editor. Do you use a different tool to check the data?


I use Matrix editors 1.0 and 6.0 (1.0 is faster) - WITP Editor X - and WITPExcel. All agree and show correct values - which are never zero. You must be looking at the wrong fields.

CVO device 523 build rate = 150 - pool = 21643

device 522 build rate = 100, pool = 28320

(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 91
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 12:49:42 AM   
okami


Posts: 404
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Same problem here, put the latest locations into scen folder, still the database editor shows 0 in the pool and a build rate of 0.

After one turn without changing any orders the numbers are:
Naval shipyard: 1304 (338)
Merchant shipyard: 1578 (1)
Shipyard Repair: 1434


This is still true after finding that I have the correct values in the pool entries for 522 and 523. These extra shipbuilding points are not showing up in the game. Is it that the game will just not let us see these points but will draw on them anyway?

_____________________________

"Square peg, round hole? No problem. Malet please.

(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 92
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 11:26:08 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
I don't know how you are playing.

Have you left all ships turned on?

Have you accelerated ships?

Do you turn off other things in shipbuilding hexes which eat HI points? [You need to turn off numbers of armaments plants, aircraft plants, tank factories, and probably also shipyards - to get what you really want - you cannot do everything all out - or the game will simply not build many things]

IF you turn off numbers of ships, accelerate few or none, then you should see pools each day.

Over time - as you build up yard capacity - and as expensive ships are completed (e.g. shinano)

you will have more optoins.

I am not yet certain we have the numbers right - but they are better.

I paid you for all ships built somewhere else in points - or with Thai shipbuilding capacity

I reduced the cost of tankers by 25% - the most I can withotu a monsterous amount of work

I did a number of technical things - converting the CV training units into things you don't pay for -
giving you Yamato so you only pay repair points - stuff like that

To evaluate what your situation is, you need to track how many ships come off the ways - how many are advancing - and ideally total the costs to figure out how many points are made. It appears that in 1941 Japan producess at ALL shipyards - not like planes.

We have problems if we need vastly more (or fewer) points - and the system (never integrted properly) may not work too well - but it does appear to work better than I would expect for such a simplistic thing (a common WITP observation).

There is one other context: IF you build too many aircraft, engines, tanks, or other things - it will reduce shipbuilding points. I never want to make it so you can build 100,000 planes (like the US did) and more ships than history - and a giant tank force - so I move incrmentally in these matters.


< Message edited by el cid again -- 1/22/2008 11:28:12 AM >

(in reply to okami)
Post #: 93
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 11:28:57 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Testing this is hard - it requires hundreds of settings - but I am testing.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 94
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 7:26:55 PM   
okami


Posts: 404
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I don't know how you are playing.

Have you left all ships turned on?

Have you accelerated ships?

Do you turn off other things in shipbuilding hexes which eat HI points? [You need to turn off numbers of armaments plants, aircraft plants, tank factories, and probably also shipyards - to get what you really want - you cannot do everything all out - or the game will simply not build many things]

IF you turn off numbers of ships, accelerate few or none, then you should see pools each day.

Over time - as you build up yard capacity - and as expensive ships are completed (e.g. shinano)

you will have more optoins.

I am not yet certain we have the numbers right - but they are better.

I paid you for all ships built somewhere else in points - or with Thai shipbuilding capacity

I reduced the cost of tankers by 25% - the most I can withotu a monsterous amount of work

I did a number of technical things - converting the CV training units into things you don't pay for -
giving you Yamato so you only pay repair points - stuff like that

To evaluate what your situation is, you need to track how many ships come off the ways - how many are advancing - and ideally total the costs to figure out how many points are made. It appears that in 1941 Japan producess at ALL shipyards - not like planes.

We have problems if we need vastly more (or fewer) points - and the system (never integrted properly) may not work too well - but it does appear to work better than I would expect for such a simplistic thing (a common WITP observation).

There is one other context: IF you build too many aircraft, engines, tanks, or other things - it will reduce shipbuilding points. I never want to make it so you can build 100,000 planes (like the US did) and more ships than history - and a giant tank force - so I move incrmentally in these matters.


What I am asking is why, if the Naval pool starts with 28000 points before the Dec7th turn, that at the start of the Dec8th turn there are only 334 points in the pool if I made no changes at all? I am not asking if you got the numbers right, I realize that will take playtesting. Which I will do for you in my game with Mistmatz. What I want to know is why 28000 Naval and 21000 Merchant points are not registring on Dec8th. They could not all have been spent in one day.

_____________________________

"Square peg, round hole? No problem. Malet please.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 95
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 7:48:00 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Oh yes they could be.

Aside from increasing costs for auxiliaries and tankers,

we added thousands of landing craft and junks and barges and things of that sort - each with one durability point -
and dozens of sea trucks and river craft.

On the other hand, we removed half the AKs.

We added many ships which were not built - but which were planned - expecting (and requiring) you to turn them off - except you must do that on turn 2 in PBEM games (it is not an option on turn 1). You cannot build all those fancy AA destroyers, torpedo destroyers, numbers of cruisers - numbers of carriers - and not run out of steel, labor, name it. You simply MUST turn off things and prioritize.

Yet another factor is what produces in a hex. Too many things sucking will mean that some things never produce at all. You may not be getting four figures of new warship points and merchant points if you have not learned how to turn off things which will prevent them from being made.

It is not yet possible to know if we have the right values - but we cannot find out in a test where players do not attempt to be reaonable.
The economy is not well organized - some places seem NEVER to produce an aircraft engine for example - while others make lots of them - and just why is not clear to us? This may be true of ship points too. It DOES appear that ships are "pair for" in class slot order - so if there are too few points - the higher slot ships won't advance a day. It DOES appear "accelerated" ships get first call - at the expense of normal ships.
If you have too much building relative to new points - your pools should and will go to zero.

But each day you get 100 new warship points plus 150 new merchant points - if you never produce any at all from the economy (compensation for foreign built ships). So it is impossible you get zero points to work with - even if you turn off all shipyard production - or defeat it - by any means.

(in reply to okami)
Post #: 96
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 7:49:22 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Oh yes they could be.

Aside from increasing costs for auxiliaries and tankers,

we added thousands of landing craft and junks and barges and things of that sort - each with one durability point -
and dozens of sea trucks and river craft.

On the other hand, we removed half the AKs. We added shipyards - to the point it alarmed our most famous modder -
and we just did that again big time. The cumulative imacts we do not fully understand at this time.

We added many ships which were not built - but which were planned - expecting (and requiring) you to turn them off (you pick which is turned off, not necessairily the same mix) - except you must do that on turn 2 in PBEM games (it is not an option on turn 1). You cannot build all those fancy AA destroyers, torpedo destroyers, numbers of cruisers - numbers of carriers - and not run out of steel, labor, name it. You simply MUST turn off things and prioritize.

Yet another factor is what produces in a hex. Too many things sucking will mean that some things never produce at all. You may not be getting four figures of new warship points and merchant points if you have not learned how to turn off things which will prevent them from being made.

It is not yet possible to know if we have the right values - but we cannot find out in a test where players do not attempt to be reaonable.
The economy is not well organized - some places seem NEVER to produce an aircraft engine for example - while others make lots of them - and just why is not clear to us? This may be true of ship points too. It DOES appear that ships are "pair for" in class slot order - so if there are too few points - the higher slot ships won't advance a day. It DOES appear "accelerated" ships get first call - at the expense of normal ships.
If you have too much building relative to new points - your pools should and will go to zero.

But each day you get 100 new warship points plus 150 new merchant points - if you never produce any at all from the economy (compensation for foreign built ships). So it is impossible you get zero points to work with - even if you turn off all shipyard production - or defeat it - by any means.



< Message edited by el cid again -- 1/22/2008 7:50:39 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 97
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 8:01:35 PM   
okami


Posts: 404
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Oh yes they could be.

Aside from increasing costs for auxiliaries and tankers,

we added thousands of landing craft and junks and barges and things of that sort - each with one durability point -
and dozens of sea trucks and river craft.

On the other hand, we removed half the AKs.

We added many ships which were not built - but which were planned - expecting (and requiring) you to turn them off - except you must do that on turn 2 in PBEM games (it is not an option on turn 1). You cannot build all those fancy AA destroyers, torpedo destroyers, numbers of cruisers - numbers of carriers - and not run out of steel, labor, name it. You simply MUST turn off things and prioritize.

Yet another factor is what produces in a hex. Too many things sucking will mean that some things never produce at all. You may not be getting four figures of new warship points and merchant points if you have not learned how to turn off things which will prevent them from being made.

It is not yet possible to know if we have the right values - but we cannot find out in a test where players do not attempt to be reaonable.
The economy is not well organized - some places seem NEVER to produce an aircraft engine for example - while others make lots of them - and just why is not clear to us? This may be true of ship points too. It DOES appear that ships are "pair for" in class slot order - so if there are too few points - the higher slot ships won't advance a day. It DOES appear "accelerated" ships get first call - at the expense of normal ships.
If you have too much building relative to new points - your pools should and will go to zero.

But each day you get 100 new warship points plus 150 new merchant points - if you never produce any at all from the economy (compensation for foreign built ships). So it is impossible you get zero points to work with - even if you turn off all shipyard production - or defeat it - by any means.

If I am understanding you correctly, all of the pool points can be spent on the first day of the war. In a pbem game you can not turn off anything as production is greyed out for the first day. I will now start my game with Mistmatz and I will post obervations so that you can see how things are going. Thank you for the help you have given and continue to give. I'm ging on a "bug hunt" I'll find them you kill them.

_____________________________

"Square peg, round hole? No problem. Malet please.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 98
RE: RHS ship production - 1/22/2008 8:02:20 PM   
okami


Posts: 404
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Oh yes they could be.

Aside from increasing costs for auxiliaries and tankers,

we added thousands of landing craft and junks and barges and things of that sort - each with one durability point -
and dozens of sea trucks and river craft.

On the other hand, we removed half the AKs.

We added many ships which were not built - but which were planned - expecting (and requiring) you to turn them off - except you must do that on turn 2 in PBEM games (it is not an option on turn 1). You cannot build all those fancy AA destroyers, torpedo destroyers, numbers of cruisers - numbers of carriers - and not run out of steel, labor, name it. You simply MUST turn off things and prioritize.

Yet another factor is what produces in a hex. Too many things sucking will mean that some things never produce at all. You may not be getting four figures of new warship points and merchant points if you have not learned how to turn off things which will prevent them from being made.

It is not yet possible to know if we have the right values - but we cannot find out in a test where players do not attempt to be reaonable.
The economy is not well organized - some places seem NEVER to produce an aircraft engine for example - while others make lots of them - and just why is not clear to us? This may be true of ship points too. It DOES appear that ships are "pair for" in class slot order - so if there are too few points - the higher slot ships won't advance a day. It DOES appear "accelerated" ships get first call - at the expense of normal ships.
If you have too much building relative to new points - your pools should and will go to zero.

But each day you get 100 new warship points plus 150 new merchant points - if you never produce any at all from the economy (compensation for foreign built ships). So it is impossible you get zero points to work with - even if you turn off all shipyard production - or defeat it - by any means.

If I am understanding you correctly, all of the pool points can be spent on the first day of the war. In a pbem game you can not turn off anything as production is greyed out for the first day. I will now start my game with Mistmatz and I will post obervations so that you can see how things are going. Thank you for the help you have given and continue to give. I'm going on a "bug hunt" I'll find them you kill them.



_____________________________

"Square peg, round hole? No problem. Malet please.

(in reply to okami)
Post #: 99
RE: RHS ship production - 1/23/2008 6:52:06 AM   
1EyedJacks


Posts: 2244
Joined: 3/12/2006
From: The Eastern Sierras
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Oh yes they could be.

Aside from increasing costs for auxiliaries and tankers,

we added thousands of landing craft and junks and barges and things of that sort - each with one durability point -
and dozens of sea trucks and river craft.

On the other hand, we removed half the AKs.

We added many ships which were not built - but which were planned - expecting (and requiring) you to turn them off - except you must do that on turn 2 in PBEM games (it is not an option on turn 1). You cannot build all those fancy AA destroyers, torpedo destroyers, numbers of cruisers - numbers of carriers - and not run out of steel, labor, name it. You simply MUST turn off things and prioritize.

Yet another factor is what produces in a hex. Too many things sucking will mean that some things never produce at all. You may not be getting four figures of new warship points and merchant points if you have not learned how to turn off things which will prevent them from being made.

It is not yet possible to know if we have the right values - but we cannot find out in a test where players do not attempt to be reaonable.
The economy is not well organized - some places seem NEVER to produce an aircraft engine for example - while others make lots of them - and just why is not clear to us? This may be true of ship points too. It DOES appear that ships are "pair for" in class slot order - so if there are too few points - the higher slot ships won't advance a day. It DOES appear "accelerated" ships get first call - at the expense of normal ships.
If you have too much building relative to new points - your pools should and will go to zero.

But each day you get 100 new warship points plus 150 new merchant points - if you never produce any at all from the economy (compensation for foreign built ships). So it is impossible you get zero points to work with - even if you turn off all shipyard production - or defeat it - by any means.

If I am understanding you correctly, all of the pool points can be spent on the first day of the war. In a pbem game you can not turn off anything as production is greyed out for the first day. I will now start my game with Mistmatz and I will post obervations so that you can see how things are going. Thank you for the help you have given and continue to give. I'm going on a "bug hunt" I'll find them you kill them.




I was about to dive in to the new update when I saw these posts... It looks like there is a strong possability that there will be another update regarding ship production?

_____________________________

TTFN,

Mike

(in reply to okami)
Post #: 100
RE: RHS ship production - 1/23/2008 6:56:09 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Yep.

I just ran a successful test which got all warships to produce. It required 317 more points per month than we are using. I can make that work.
I won't give you all of them - Japan should not be able to produce everything - but it now gives me a range to shoot at.

I failed to calibrate merchants - 850 more is not enough - so I will retest with 1850 more - and sooner or later I am going to have a box around it. When I do I will be able to know what to do? Next test running from now. [I go back to work]

(in reply to 1EyedJacks)
Post #: 101
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