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Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase

 
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Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 5:28:43 AM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
Hey Marshall,

This is an odd one. I am Prussia and have declared war on Oldenburg in the previous month (France took control). This month, during the land movement phase and after I have already successfully besieged the city (Hamburg??), my corps detaches 1i into the city and moves away. At the start of the following Diplomacy phase, my garrison is booted from Hamburg and the minor is neither conquered by Prussia, nor still at war with Prussia.

I have attached the 4 files for you to see whats going on (Bug_with_Oldenburg_pre and Bug_with_Oldenburg_post, with both .sav and .dat files included, all inside a zip archive).

I have seen this bug occur before; on the plus side, it does not happen very often. Happy hunting

Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 10:33:42 AM   
DCWhitworth


Posts: 675
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: Norwich, England
Status: offline
Not a bug, you need to keep your corps in the country. If you move all your corps out of the minor on the turn you capture the capital 6.15 will apply *before* 10.7 happens -

10.7 Conquest of Minor Countries

... The control flags are changed only if the capital of the minor country was occupied during the previous month and the conqueror has maintained uninterrupted and unbesieged occupation for the entire current month. ...

6.15 Lapse of War with Minor Countries

If a major power has no corps within a minor country they have declared war on, then that major power is considered to be no longer at war with the minor country and must be at war with the major power controlling it before he can attack it again (Exception: The program will not recognize a lapse of war if the minor country has forces inside of the enemy major power’s territory). Any garrisons, Cossacks, or freikorps are repatriated . . .



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(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 2
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 5:40:29 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
Hey DC,

I'm aware of this. I leave a garrison in the capital and that is sufficient for conquest purposes. Though and interesting thing did occur. I reloaded the land phase and left the corps in Oldenburg. This still leaves me at war with Oldenburg and should give me the chance to conquer this minor. Still, according to the rules, garrisoning a minor capital is sufficient for conquest.

Marshall,

I'll attach a zip of the Land Combat Phase, which will show how I completed the Land phase. I've also included a save where I've left the corps in Oldenburg and this seems to continue the war. Hope this info helps.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to DCWhitworth)
Post #: 3
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 6:03:44 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
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The OP is correct, a garrison is sufficient for conquest in EiANW. However, I've seen this bug once or twice.

Was the corps that detached garrison the same one that besieged? I saw this just yesterday in the following situation:

1. Prussia declares war on minor, moves Saxony corps in to besiege.

2. Gets breach.

3. Next month (during which it needs to maintain occupation), Saxony corps needed elsewhere. Instead of detaching a factor from the Saxony corps, a Prussian corps moves in (before Saxony corps has left), detaches a factor, and moves out. Then, Saxony corps moves out.

4. War lapses.

Since it was a solo game, I reloaded the savefile, and redid the conquest using the Prussian corps from the beginning. Still just left a garrison to complete the conquest, had no problem.


Nathan Rose

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 4
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 6:21:22 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
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There is something to remember about conquest, and it can bite you if you are not careful.

The normal sequence of play to get a minor is thus:

1)  Declare war
2)  Defeat forces in the field
3)  Defeat city garrison in capital city
4)  Wait until the land phase in the turn FOLLOWING the turn in which the garrison was defeated
5)  Conquest occurs automatically at the end of the land phase

Now, please note that there are two other situations that can happen. The first is between 1 & 2 or 3 & 4: If another nation, who happens to be at war with the controlling MP of the minor, goes into the minor and conquers its capital, then it is a toss-up which power will take the minor. The game seems to roll randomly.

Note that it is possible to move one's corps counter out of the minor during the turn that occurs in steps 4 & 5. Since the LAND phase is the one in which control is determined, this occurs the same turn. "Lapse of war" only occurs in the diplomacy phase, so it cannot happen between steps 4 & 5.

The second way is much more important, and seems to be the one likely to have happened to you. In this one, there is a turn between steps 2 & 3 (i.e you failed to breach the city defenses, or lost the combat). During this turn, if the controlling MP moves before you do in the land phase, then the garrison can die of starvation during foraging. If this happens, it will APPEAR to you exactly the same as if you had conquered it the previous turn. However, you have not had control for the WHOLE turn yet; the city was not denuded of troops until the land phase (of the other major power).

If you move your corps counter out during the same land phase when the garrison died of starvation (or, died to another MP's forces) when an at-war turn came before this one, you will NOT capture the minor (because you didn't have control for a WHOLE turn). Instead, there will be a lapse of war in the next turn's diplomacy phase.

This second one has bitten me I don't know how many times in the computer game. It's because I don't remember accurately whether I owned the capital at the beginning of the turn.

So, I've come up with a way to keep track: I place a factor into the capital city ONLY after I have breached the defenses and won OR if it is the land phase and I now control the capital city. If I see a factor in the capital, then I know that it was placed there on a turn previous to the current one, and I can safely move my corps counter out of the minor's territory.

I think the game designers might consider adding some aspect to the minor nation that would tell us if we owned the nation's capital at the beginning of this turn. Perhaps change the color of the border or of the capital or something, a change only occuring at the beginning of a turn when the conditions apply.

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Post #: 5
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 6:54:26 PM   
DCWhitworth


Posts: 675
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: Norwich, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ted1066

Hey DC,

I'm aware of this. I leave a garrison in the capital and that is sufficient for conquest purposes. Though and interesting thing did occur. I reloaded the land phase and left the corps in Oldenburg. This still leaves me at war with Oldenburg and should give me the chance to conquer this minor. Still, according to the rules, garrisoning a minor capital is sufficient for conquest.



Ted I think you missed my point. Yes the garrison is sufficient for conquest purposes. But it is *not* sufficient to stop the lapse of war, only a corps will do that.

You require a month's occupation of their capital to conquer a minor. During that month there will be an opportunity for the war to lapse.

So if you drop a point in with a corps and march straight out in the same movement phase you will not have a corps there when the lapse of war phase comes around and you will be ejected.

I still maintain that the game is operating correctly, I've loaded your game and looked at it. If you drop a point in the city and then the corps leaves you will fulfil rule 6.15 (and the war will lapse) *before* you fulfil 10.7 and conquer Oldenburg.

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Regards
David

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 6
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 7:10:16 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
Hey all,

So I'll toss this in as a comparator for the games behaviour. I DoW'd Munster and Oldenburg at the same time and basically performed duplicate actions with each minor.

1) DoW minor (lets say it was in April)
2) during the April land phase, move in and besiege capital (given that Munster has no land forces, I can pass through on to Oldenburg).
3) during the April land combat phase (and directly after the movement phase that I moved into each minor), I successfully breach each capital and win the assault.
4) during the May movement phase, each corps that successfully breached and won in April detaches a single Inf factor into each capital and move away.
5) at the start of the June Diplomacy phase, I check the status of each minor. Munster is showing Prussian conquered, but Oldenburg is showing French Free State (French backed Oldenburg).

This is a discrepancy. Interestingly, I follow DC's advice and try a scenario where I leave a corps behind in Oldenburg. This works, but it takes 1 month longer to conquer. The one thing that may be occurring, now that I think back on it, is that the defending garrison in Bremen (capital of Oldenburg) may have unsuccessfully foraged. So the comp may think that I did not win the previous months assault and that may be causing the lapse of war. All the same, its a problem.

All that matters is that the attacker spend one month in the minor's capital to successfully conquer it. It doesn't matter if the defending garrison starves to death or was beaten during the previous months land phase, at least not according to the RAW (EiA mind you - I've never touched the EiH stuff). My main point is that from a user standpoint, the activities during the April turn were identical, but the outcome was different. That's why I think its a bug. Enough of my prattling

(in reply to DCWhitworth)
Post #: 7
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 7:24:57 PM   
DCWhitworth


Posts: 675
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: Norwich, England
Status: offline
Do you have save files for this ? Assuming your report is 100% accurate then there *is* a bug. But not the one you think there is.

If the capital of Muster was only occupied in the May movement phase it should not have been conquered by the June diplomatic phase.

I think you are assuming that your elimination of the garrison is enough to fulfil the criteria of occupying the capital. It isn't, that is only fulfilled when you put a point into the city.

Incidentally, you seem to have overlooked something. If you attack a city and wipe out the garrison you can occupy the city there and then (check out the icons) you don't have to wait until your next movement phase.

So in the example you gave, if both corps successfully defeated the garrisons in April they could have dropped their own garrisons into the cities then and not waited until May. Since they cannot move out until May, the war will not lapse because the minor will be conquered at the end of the May movement phase.


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Regards
David

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 8
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 9:36:38 PM   
Monadman


Posts: 2085
Joined: 12/6/2005
From: New Hampshire
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Ted,

I looked at your file and found that the Prussian siege assault attempt on Bremen (Oldenburg) during the April Land Phase was unsuccessful but that the garrison foraged out during the French May Land Phase. Prussia then dropped a garrison during their May Land Phase and moved the corps (I corps?) out, which caused a lapse of war with Oldenburg beginning the June diplomacy phase. Sorry, but you left Oldenburg too soon.

Richard


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Post #: 9
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 9:44:13 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
Hmm, I've been playing wrong for awhile then

If I understand this correctly (and I don't have a copy of the rules handy to verify), is the month's occupation of a minor capital for conquest purposes calculated from one conquest phase to another? Or is it determined from sequential land phases? My understanding was that it is determined from one conquest phase to the next. Any thoughts?

(in reply to Monadman)
Post #: 10
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/12/2008 9:46:33 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
Nevermind my last post. I reread Richard's statement and I see where I made my error. Another mistake I was making was that a garrison in the minor is sufficient for conquest, but it would seem that in this particular case it is not. Thanks for the clarification - guess that one less thing for Marshall to have to worry about

Cheers,

Ted

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 11
RE: Bug occurring after Land Combat Phase - 1/13/2008 5:28:02 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
No big deal. What's the difference in 200 issues or 199? :-)



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(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 12
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