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Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 5:52:30 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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Hi all,


Last night I was playing FR at war with PR.

I changed my surrender option from "Conditional" to "Unconditional" a turn or two before the war between us ended. PR accepted my "Unconditional" surrender demand (verified in the log in the bottom left of the screen).

One of my conditions was set to "Give FR Portugal if PR surrenders" (don't ask about Portugal - they somehow took it over earlier). I also demanded "Give (two other provinces I can't remember) to FR". At the time of surrender I had no units in Portugal. There were other conditions including "Enforced peace for 36 months", " Marriage" (I'm a sucker for romance), "No trade" and "Give up 3 corps".

When the war ended, I pretty much got exactly what I put into my "Unconditional"surrender demands but for some reason PR kept Portugal and the enforced peace was only 18 months. I thought that a surrendering nation could pick only one surrender condition but only for "Conditional" surrenders. I also ended up getting the two other provinces I asked for (which had units of mine in them).

Is there a bug here or were there some peace negotiations going on someplace that I was not aware of? Did I not get Portugal because I had no units in it? Why was the "Enforced peace for 36 months" not fully applied? Is it impossible to change my surrender demand from "Conditional" to "Unconditional" after the start of hostilities? Can a surrendering nation set one or more conditions, even when they surrender unconditionally?

In short, why did I not get Portugal and why did I only get an enforced peace of 18 months?

Thanks in advance,



GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/5/2008 6:34:45 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 6:46:12 PM   
gwheelock

 

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An unconditional gets you 3 items (& 3 provences = 1 ITEM).

Could you have selected more than 3 items or more than 3 provences for the "Cede 3..." condition?
I think I have seen the case where if I get "greedy"; it then becomes the surrendering "player"'s choice
of which items or which provences if more than 3 are selected (AND VALID - which Portugal would have been but
so could others)

(You mentioned that you had changed from a conditional to an unconditional - could you have left other options selected from the "conditional" choices list?)

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
Post #: 2
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 7:08:37 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

An unconditional gets you 3 items (& 3 provences = 1 ITEM).

Could you have selected more than 3 items or more than 3 provences for the "Cede 3..." condition?
I think I have seen the case where if I get "greedy"; it then becomes the surrendering "player"'s choice
of which items or which provences if more than 3 are selected (AND VALID - which Portugal would have been but
so could others)

(You mentioned that you had changed from a conditional to an unconditional - could you have left other options selected from the "conditional" choices list?)



Ah-hah.

I checked almost all the boxes under the "Unconditional" surrender options (none of the options were in conflict - I didn't pick more than one enforced peace, for example). I only selected 3 corps and only 3 provinces (which were the choices I was given). I wanted to really spank PR because they were really bugging me by continually attacking me.

I did change the terms from "Conditional" to "Unconditional" and I did leave some of the "Conditional" boxes checked. But the "Conditional" options were replaced by the "Unconditional" options when I changed, so I assumed they would no longer be valid.

I would really appreciate it if anyone else could verify what gwheelock and I are thinking.

Thanks in advance,


GSB

(in reply to gwheelock)
Post #: 3
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 7:33:25 PM   
Murat


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Actually when doing a surrender the AI works from the top down on your surrender list and takes the 1st in each list that can be done. Each column can be ordered. I will provide a visual here:




LOL you jumped in before the visual. OK so in this example Spain surrenders to me unconditionally next turn but I am a military genius and have totally destroyed all her armies and fleets plus Portugal fell. So the computer starts with my Conditions lists and picks the 1st 3 that work. Cede 3 provinces - looks OK, so it goes over to the Provinces to annex list and it sees that Portugal is already mine (actually it would not see it because Portugal would drop off the list) and I am granted Old Castille, Aragon, Catalonia. 1 pick down. Next pick - 2 fleets, they are gone so SKIP. Reparations all - Spain now owes me $32 (the ORIGINAL amount they were getting in 1805, no more no less) which might bankrupt them, cost them some PP but also cheat me on some of my $. 2 picks down. Next is Remove 3 Corps - all corps dead, SKIP. Next is 1/2 reparations I already got Full so I cannot get this too. As a matter of fact why did that stupid human even put that here in this list (because it looks cool and harsh and I feel like I am salting the fields even though in reality it doesn't matter so long as ALL is above 1/2 ) S K I P. No trading - OK Spain cannot trade and if they do anyway France is free to immediately declare war on them again. That is 3. DONE! NEXT!

It should be noted again that each list is in order. If Castanos dies, Blake is my back up to remove a leader. If I do not check Blake and Castanos dies, I will not get the remove a leader option. Also keep in mind that if there are several nations being surrendered to they pick 1 at a time in the order they are on the PP chart so keep these screens ordered or you may fight a very long war only to see your allies take 3 provinces, get the loot and you get left with the victim's ugly nagging daughter for your royal marriage ("In England we had bathrooms INSIDE the castle." So go home, I really didn't want you anyway, but I had to take SOMETHING from the caslte and unfortunately you were all I could find since that coward father of yours had fled to St. Petersburg to 'visit his cousin'.)

PORTUGAL MAY BE A BUG. In the board game you could always take any minor but provinces (taking the main parts of the victim nation) had to be adjacent to land you already owned or you had to have a corps in it.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Murat -- 1/5/2008 8:02:41 PM >

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
Post #: 4
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 7:36:35 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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******
PLEASE IGNORE THIS POST. IT WAS MADE BEFORE THE PRECEEDING POST WAS EDITED.

******
Ok,

But what factors decide how items lower on the list are done or not done? For example, how does "Marriage" preclude "Give up a province"? Are we only allowed to have a fixed number of demands?


GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/5/2008 8:20:36 PM >

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 5
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 8:18:57 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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From: Canada
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Thanks Murat,


What you stated was how I thought it worked. I'm happy to have what I thought verified, because sometimes what I assume is totally wrong. A noob always needs verification!

My question is why could I not get Portugal? I was only allowed 3 provinces and actually Portugal was at the top of my list because it is worth so much. Is it because I didn't have corps in Portugal or in any location adjacent to Portugal? It sounds like this might be the case. Could anyone verify? Obviously I got the two other territories, so the AI used "Give up provinces" as one of my 3 conditions.

What about enforced peace. I only selected 36 months (as the enforced peace option), although it wasn't at the top of my list (I'm not sure of the exact order but give up corps, provinces, marriage, etc might have been above it). Enforced peace was somewhere in the middle. Besides, 18 months (what I ended up with) isn't an available choice. It seems like the computer used "Enforced peace" as one of the 3 conditions, so it couldn't have been too far from the top of my list. Maybe 18 months is a "default" peace if my actual peace demand is not chosen as one of my 3 conditions?


GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/5/2008 8:37:58 PM >

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
Post #: 6
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 9:08:38 PM   
Murat


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18 months is the default peace, you did not get the longer peace option but something else instead. Right click on your information window and copy it, then paste it in Notebook and look (it's in reverse chronological order) and see what you got. Remember you only get the 1st 3 that are possible no matter how many you click.

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
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RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 9:25:58 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

18 months is the default peace, you did not get the longer peace option but something else instead. Right click on your information window and copy it, then paste it in Notebook and look (it's in reverse chronological order) and see what you got. Remember you only get the 1st 3 that are possible no matter how many you click.


* A big lightbulb goes on in GSB's brain *

Cool.

You rock.

I'm going to replay the save games I have and see if I can replicate the Portugal issue. If I can, I'll put it in as an oficial bug report.



GSB

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 8
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 10:07:48 PM   
Grognot

 

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You don't need to have forces anywhere near somebody else's minor for them to cede it to you (unlike home provinces), but the owner can't cede it out from anybody who (a) is at war with that minor or the owning major, and (b) does actually have forces there.


(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
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RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 11:29:31 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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Ok,

The game won't cede a minor to me if:

1. I put the minor to be ceded to me too low on my list of surrender demands but three other demands get met first.
2. There is a third major country at war with the minor country I'm supposed to get.
3. There is a third major country at war with the major power who surrenders to me. If this is true this is likely what happened to me.
4. There are units of a third country in the minor country I'm supposed to get.

Are these statements correct? Are there any other special conditions that apply?


GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/5/2008 11:32:13 PM >

(in reply to Grognot)
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RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/5/2008 11:51:58 PM   
Grognot

 

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(2) and (3) are insufficient unless the third major country actually has factors there.  The third party is simply out of luck if they wanted it instead.

Note -- a fleet blockading a port appears to count as 'in' that region.  For Portugal, see if Spain had anybody blockading a Portugese fleet in Lisbon, for instance.

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
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RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/6/2008 12:02:01 AM   
Murat


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It's not a ceding issue it is a victory condition issue. Ceding is voluntary, surrender conditions are imposed. He beat Prussia, he asked for Portugal, AI said no for some reason. Original EIA allowed you to get ANY minor (although a lot of house rules went against this) that the vanquished nation owned regardless of it's location or your troop presence. EIANW either a) deviated from this and requires you to have a troop presence to be able to take a minor; or b) has a bug on this issue. Unlike ceding, in a surrender the only thing that matters is if the vanquished nation still owns it in the peace step. Another nation at war with the vanquised could have unbeseiged occupation of the minor's capital that they just got last month and still lose the minor if the victr takes it out from under them. This probably would have some diplomatic or military response, but it is allowed under the original EIA rules.

(in reply to Grognot)
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RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/6/2008 12:25:07 AM   
Grapeshot Bob


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Hmmm ...


I just want to be clear. Portugal was a Free State of PR and was offered as a possible province to take in the surrender choices. At the time I think Portugal was at war with GB and Turkey (as was PR).

Perhaps a Free State is different and the bug is that the AI offers it as a conquered province in the surrender screen?



GSB

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 13
RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/6/2008 12:34:44 AM   
Murat


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Well it is a little bit technical but:
a PROVINCE is something that started out as part of a major nation's home territory
a MINOR is a conquered or free state area that is outside of the home nations (all minors have a marker stating free state or conquered, Kingdoms do not show any such marker although they should have a free state marker).

All free states revert back to conquered when they are captured, surrendered or ceded. So in Portugal's case, under the old EIA rules it should have been available and given to you as one of your 3 'provinnce' picks unless EIANW was programmed with a deviation of the old EIA rules in this regard.

< Message edited by Murat -- 1/6/2008 1:16:00 AM >

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RE: Surrender Option Clarification - 1/6/2008 12:37:32 AM   
Grapeshot Bob


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Cool.

Thanks very much for all the effort you have put in helping me, Murat.


GSB

(in reply to Murat)
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