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RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 11:05:35 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

I started playing wargames in the 1960s, when they were relatively short and simple. Since then, games have got long and complicated, alas. Most modern games require players to spend their time on tedious chores that a real-life commander-in-chief would sensibly delegate to subordinates.

Are there any games these days designed for players who have jobs and families; who want a game that can be played to completion in a short period of time (say, half an hour to two hours?); who want to spend their playing time thinking about grand strategy and not fussing around with minor details?

I know what you mean. Look I don't know what rig or OS you're running but the best "simple" games with guts ever made were:

1. Civil War Generals 2 (with self-declaration of scenario end patch) - must be available somewhere.
2. The Ardennes Offensive 1 - was free for download somewhere, write to SSG.
3. Battles in Normandy - SSG/Matrix.
4. Squad Battles - HPS.
5. Panzer General 1.

If I could make a suggestion out of left field, I'd recommend the Age of Empires 3 franchise. It's a beautiful looking and playing thing with an immense change to player chores over AoE 1 and 2.

What we really need is a PC port of the Avalon Hill Great Battles of the American Civil War series. Div sized units, 1 day per turn, 1 mile per hex. Pure strategy. Simple rules. But as a board game - needing a huge table.

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)

Post #: 31

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 1:05:49 PM

Widell

Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollh�ttan, Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey
Thanks, ravinhood. I specialize in strategy rather than tactics, but I have played battle games occasionally in the past.

I'm a little surprised no one mentioned TOAW III? It's supposedly operational, but if you go for the smaller scenarios, you can get a quick game for a couple of hours without having to deal with much detail, but still be able to feel decently into the flow of the battle.

_____________________________

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)

Post #: 32

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 1:15:19 PM

Skeleton

Posts: 560
Joined: 3/14/2006
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As mentioned, SC2 with the expansion is fairly light and the A.I. on the higher settings is very good. Also, CEAW might be a choice, very very light. Also, as mentioned, Birth of America is a brilliant game without the complexity of AACW and can be played in a few hours. Let us know if you do find something and how your experience is. Cheers.

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)

Post #: 33

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 4:01:06 PM

ravinhood

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Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
@Sterecke yah know you fall into the same catagory as Jim_H, you're both trolling for a reaction out of me. You both seek that adverse reaction. :) Plus you both and a couple of others go into every thread drawing it off topic almost immediately with an attack on me. Now I ask you who's the real troll(s) here? ;)

A cookie of your own dough is sometimes hard to swallow ain't it

<cloak from RavinHood>
Anyone else notice that RavinHood can go on and on for pages when it comes to arguing daft points, but really has trouble with come-backs once you start to make fun of him ? It seems to really hurt him.

As I'm not a fan of torture I will restrain from making fun of him too much - just the occasional jab to keep him off-balance
</cloak from RavinHood>

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Lol Sterckx you give yourself too much credit. The day anyone can "hurt" me over the internet is the day I quit posting. But, you keep thinking you are "hurting" ole Ravinhood if that's what keeps your panties warm. ;) The point I prove everyday is most of you that respond to me are a troll. None of you can have a civil conversation except SOM because yah just can't stand that I have a negative view of games. Best go back and read what a troll is again Sterckxe. ;) Maybe some day you all will learn how to debate an issue without being like most politicians and start mud slinging instead of debating the issue/TOPIC at hand. ;) Hey and look this is page 2 and I'm still here. ;)

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 34

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 4:25:13 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Lol Sterckx you give yourself too much credit. The day anyone can "hurt" me over the internet is the day I quit posting. But, you keep thinking you are "hurting" ole Ravinhood if that's what keeps your panties warm. ;) The point I prove everyday is most of you that respond to me are a troll. None of you can have a civil conversation except SOM because yah just can't stand that I have a negative view of games. Best go back and read what a troll is again Sterckxe. ;) Maybe some day you all will learn how to debate an issue without being like most politicians and start mud slinging instead of debating the issue/TOPIC at hand. ;) Hey and look this is page 2 and I'm still here. ;)

"The point I prove everyday is most of you that respond to me are a troll"

Oh look, all those other drivers are all driving on the wrong side of the road ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

< Message edited by sterckxe -- 12/18/2007 4:26:20 PM >

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 35

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 5:08:23 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8567
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From: Scotland
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lmao

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Alba gu' brath

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 36

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 5:52:41 PM

leastonh1

Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
"The point I prove everyday is most of you that respond to me are a troll"
Oh look, all those other drivers are all driving on the wrong side of the road ...

Touche. 1-0 to Eddy

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 37

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 6:58:06 PM

hazxan

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey
Most modern games require players to spend their time on tedious chores that a real-life commander-in-chief would sensibly delegate to subordinates.

Are there any games these days designed for players who have jobs and families; who want a game that can be played to completion in a short period of time (say, half an hour to two hours?); who want to spend their playing time thinking about grand strategy and not fussing around with minor details?

I have the same question! I don't necessarily expect a complete game in 2 hours, but I do need to be able to make significant progress in that time. I liked Uncommon Valor but gave up when realising that at 3 or 4 hours per week playing time, it would take me longer than the real war to complete!! So WIP is obviously a non-starter with me.

Similarly, I gave up on AGEOD's Civil War game - I totally disagree with anyone who says this game is somehow slick or easy to play. Sure the underlying engine may be good, but the unhelpful interface coupled with AI turns taking 5+ minutes to complete (on a slightly better than average PC) just took away any enjoyment.

As PC's have got way powerful, it seems some wargame designers use that power to model in ever greater detail, resulting in these labor-intensive chores you describe.

My personal gripe is that too many games are getting away with a poor standard interface that doesn't help manage the extra details they're putting in. eg AGEODS ACW, the whole game is based on forming and managing the military heirarchy, yet the UI gives you *nothing* to do this

- other than a vague drag'n'drop and hope. No heirarchical OOB, surely a must-have? Not just me as questions on the basics of forming divisions appear frequently on the forums.

As well as the excessive 'clicks'n'drags' required to get anything done, many current wargames suffer from poor presentation of information. Funny that wargamers are supposed to hate eye-candy yet it's amazing how many games use tiny fonts and multiple forms to display numbers because most of the screen is taken up with 'immersion graphics'.

I recently tried FoF. From screen shots, the presentation looked good. The map is certainly clearer than AGEODS. After half an hour, though, I was tearing out what little of my hair is left

It seems every accepted idea of how to make a helpful, intuitive UI has been ignored in the game. Far too much hiding of vital info then revealing it by 'mouseover'. (a bad trend in general across many games these days).

Basically in my half hour with FOF I'm convinced there may well be a good game engine here - but I was never sure what I had selected or what commands were available. And I don't know that I'll ever bother to start it up again - especially with the ultra-long load time. Another problem with many current games. I understand that having historically accurate photos of 2,000 generals and their horses may be a vital immersion factor, but it would be nice to have an option to switch all unecessary detail off so that if we choose, we can play the game faster.

Back to the original question, and in contrast, how about TOAW?? There are plenty of excellent 2- 3 hour scenarios AND
even better, the UI is genuinely well done and intuitive. Advanced Tactics has certainly got good control of the 'chores' and is a game to play in short sessions, but the AI turn length (again several minutes for large scenarios) spoils it somewhat.

I often end up back playing CiV4 - and I sometimes suspect this game actually has more *genuine* strategic depth than those mentioned above. Chess is an example that you don't need 19,000 provinces, hourly turns and 2,000 general's beards accurately modelled to provide genuine strategy

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)

Post #: 38

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 7:47:51 PM

JudgeDredd

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From: Scotland
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I'm sorry, but after a half hour, for a game like FoF, you have missed it. That's nowhere near enough to cut into it...though I do understand that the interface can put you off in that time. It will be sad if you do not visit it again, because the game is, by far, imo, the best game from Matrix.

It is true that the UI is a bit clunky (I often right click when I should left click and vice versa), but getting past that, although takes a little time, allows you to see what the game is.

Also, I prefer the "mouse over and get info" option...AGEOD does it really well and I think more games could do with it. If it's done correctly and shows you what you need, it's invaluable to me.

However, I see you've mentioned both games where I'm defending one (FoF) for it's gameplay and the other (AGEOD) for it's presentation (in particular tooltip info)...so I will depart leaving it as horses for courses.

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 39

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 7:58:58 PM

cdbeck

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From: Indiana
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Calling the FoF UI a "bit clunky" is like saying WWII was a "bit of a skirmish."

I do understand common British under-exaggeration, so a "bit clunky" probably really means "downright prehistoric" in American.

FoF is a great game, but absolutely not "without chores." I love the fact that you can equip new weapons on specific units, change the economy of different states (and cities) and fight gigantic "miniatures" battles. I do not like the whole container aspect, that is so confusing and cumbersome to really irritate me.

Although not a Matrix game, Dominions 3 is another Grand Strategy with very few "chores". It is also Fantasy, so if you are want historical grand strategy, look elsewhere. You CAN play it in 1-2 hours, but it is so darned addictive that you won't WANT to play it for only 1-2 hours. The AI is pretty crappy, but the game plays a bit more like an solitaire empire builder where you "overcome" obstacles, rather than a wargame.

If I had to list what fits your bill most:
1. GG:AWD
2. Dominions 3
3. Advanced Tactics
4. TOAW III
5. Spartan/Gates of Troy series

I have not played the Napoleon in Italy or Napoleon's Campaigns, so I can't list them.

SoM

< Message edited by Son_of_Montfort -- 12/18/2007 7:59:04 PM >

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 40

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 8:06:30 PM

Jonathan Palfrey

Posts: 535
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From: Sant Pere de Ribes, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Gary Grigsby's World at War is exactly what he is after. You can play at least half the war in a couple of hours. I, personally, haven't played it much since my initial look into it for the very same reasons it would appeal to him. For me, it is too simple and the war goes by too fast. I started playing UV again last weekend and am leaning heavily toward picking up WiP soon to satisfy my need for an ultradetailed ultragrog grand strategic game, but for someone looking for a streamlined, fast paced grand strategic game WaW fits the bill completely.

First of all, thanks to everyone who has posted helpful suggestions here while I've been sleeping and working!

I already have Grigsby's World at War, I bought it in April 2005, and after a little experimentation I succeeded in playing a full game of it, which took me a whole morning. I mentioned to my diary at the time that it seemed "very complicated" -- this is a game whose manual runs to some 115 pages, so I don't see how anyone could call it simple! (A simple game, in case you want to know, would have a manual of one to four pages, like the early Avalon Hill board wargames.)

True, the playing time isn't excessive compared to a lot of other games, especially considering that it represents the whole Second World War; but I'm afraid the game totally failed to grab me, and I've never felt the urge to play it again. This is basically a subjective reaction, but I can find a few reasons:

1. The map doesn't give you much idea of what's going on. First, the screen is a distressingly small window on the world, and I failed to get much idea of the big picture by scrolling around. Second, even within a small area the map doesn't clearly show you what forces you've got in each region. As a visual device for assessing the game situation, the map seemed pretty non-functional to me.

2. The economic side of the game, the production queue, etc., seemed both complicated and unappealing -- and takes place off the map entirely.

3. I realized that I have a good reason for normally avoiding the Second World War and other 20th-century conflicts: the situation is inherently complicated, both strategically and tactically, and there's probably no way of making a simple game out of it, unless you abandon all hope of simulating reality and play it as a Risk variant.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 41

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 8:18:06 PM

leastonh1

Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
Calling the FoF UI a "bit clunky" is like saying WWII was a "bit of a skirmish." I do understand common British under-exaggeration, so a "bit clunky" probably really means "downright prehistoric" in American.

ROFL! SoM, that was a very racist thing to say...and I absolutely agree with you. Over to JudgeDredd....go for it....I'll hold the coats

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 42

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 8:20:22 PM

Jonathan Palfrey

Posts: 535
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From: Sant Pere de Ribes, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

Lastly, if you don't mind non-historical, Starships Unlimited is a very good 1-2 Grand Strategy 4X space game that has practically NO chores in it. I love the game, but it is the very essence of minimalist, semi-retro space fun. I believe there is demo floating around.

If you are interested in historical games, like For Liberty!(or Napoleon in Italy), Hussar games offers a free FULL VERSION of its first game 1848 and a nice demo of For Liberty!. Try these out to gauge if you would like Napoleon Italy.

Best,
SoM

Thanks, Montfortsson, those both sound like good and really helpful suggestions. I wouldn't have thought of looking at a space game, but now you mention it I don't know why not. I'm a long-time sf reader, after all.

And of course it would make sense to try a demo from Hussar Games before spending money. Well pointed out.

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 43

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 8:23:55 PM

Jonathan Palfrey

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From: Sant Pere de Ribes, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol
"51 here and I never liked Led Zeppelin. More of a Moody Blues fan here.

53 here and I have tracks by both Led Zeppelin and the Moody Blues in my iTunes library. Amongst much else...

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 44

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 8:24:53 PM

marcusm

Posts: 763
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: G�teborg/Sweden
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Look no further than TOAW3 or AT. Fits like a glove as we say.
Actually, anyone who needs more than those have way too much time on their hands.

Marcus

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)

Post #: 45

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 8:34:47 PM

Jonathan Palfrey

Posts: 535
Joined: 4/10/2004
From: Sant Pere de Ribes, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Look I don't know what rig or OS you're running but the best "simple" games with guts ever made were:

1. Civil War Generals 2 (with self-declaration of scenario end patch) - must be available somewhere.
2. The Ardennes Offensive 1 - was free for download somewhere, write to SSG.
3. Battles in Normandy - SSG/Matrix.
4. Squad Battles - HPS.
5. Panzer General 1.

If I could make a suggestion out of left field, I'd recommend the Age of Empires 3 franchise. It's a beautiful looking and playing thing with an immense change to player chores over AoE 1 and 2.

At the moment I'm using a Dell Inspiron 9400 laptop with 2 GHz dual processor and 2 GB of RAM, running Windows XP Pro. Thanks for the suggestions, mostly 20th century unfortunately. I've heard of Civil War Generals -- pretty old now, I think. I seem to remember trying a demo of The Ardennes Offensive years ago. Interesting that you recommend Age of Empires #3 -- I tried the demo of #1 when it first came out and I wasn't keen, but if it's much improved maybe I should bear that in mind.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 46

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 9:19:19 PM

TheHellPatrol

Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
"The point I prove everyday is most of you that respond to me are a troll"
Oh look, all those other drivers are all driving on the wrong side of the road ...

Touche. 1-0 to Eddy

Here's an example of a Troll...not just a Troll...the KING of Trolls:

(quote from ravinhood#2)<"I thought it was suppose to be released Sept 2007 what happened Arjuna? ;) "(quote from ravinhood #2)

Now why would he even post a reply in a forum of the game he calls a "kiddie clickfest"? Not just a post but another redundant remark which has absolutely no purpose

other than to be annoying, inflammatory

. Only ravintroll see's himself as the victim, the rest of us know who he really is...<insert adjective here>

.

_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

(in reply to leastonh1)

Post #: 47

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 9:26:37 PM

SeaMonkey

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JP you really owe it to yourself to try SC..the demo will do. First the WaW demo has a Battle of the Bulge scenario that gives you a feel for its operational capability and then has the strategic demo which was the original foundation for the game engine.

If you could find the SC1 demo, possibly you should try it first. Very simple with an elegant interface that can be played in a couple of hours without reading anything, pretty intuitive.

Finally you should know that this game has evolved over 5 years, with many adopted user ideas from the forum. It now(WaW) possess' a competent AI (they tell me), but I assure you the HtoH dynamics of PBEM are very fulfilling.

It is an easy game to play with a lot going on underneath the hood, the only micromanagement is in your head(contemplation) with a complicated Rocks, Paper, Scissors essence.

< Message edited by SeaMonkey -- 12/18/2007 9:28:17 PM >

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)

Post #: 48

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 10:09:24 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
"The point I prove everyday is most of you that respond to me are a troll"
Oh look, all those other drivers are all driving on the wrong side of the road ...

Touche. 1-0 to Eddy

Here's an example of a Troll...not just a Troll...the KING of Trolls:

(quote from ravinhood#2)<"I thought it was suppose to be released Sept 2007 what happened Arjuna? ;) "(quote from ravinhood #2)

Now why would he even post a reply in a forum of the game he calls a "kiddie clickfest"? Not just a post but another redundant remark which has absolutely no purpose other than to be annoying, inflammatory. Only ravintroll see's himself as the victim, the rest of us know who he really is...<insert adjective here>.

I guess you're going to like my reply then

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/m.asp?m=1651610&mpage=1&key=

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 49

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 10:40:22 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
"The point I prove everyday is most of you that respond to me are a troll"
Oh look, all those other drivers are all driving on the wrong side of the road ...

Touche. 1-0 to Eddy

And there goes Jim_H and Sterecke and JD proving my point today. ;) I win you always lose. ;)

@Sterecke notice who attacked who first? The OTHER guy, thus making him the troll not me. ;) I responded to the topic and a question. He responded with a trolling remark.

Hey Erik you gonna let this continue? Cause I can really get nasty if you ain't gonna do anything about THEM. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 12/18/2007 10:43:06 PM >

(in reply to leastonh1)

Post #: 50

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 11:01:03 PM

cdbeck

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From: Indiana
Status: offline

You know... speaking of "choreless Grand Strategy," I just found out that the Gametap Gold service (which costs $10 monthly) allows you access to Panzer General II and the Panzer General spinoff game! Not to mention also having Age of Sail III, Space Empires IV and V, Gates of Troy, Laser Squad Nemesis, Armored Fist 3 and... nostalgia getting the best of me... The Ancient Art of War series (at Sea and in the Sky)! I tried Gametap out a while back and they had limited selection... now it looks like they are catering to a more expanded market than people nostalgic for their Segas and Nintendos. Heck, they even said that Dangerous Waters is coming soon! I am seriously thinking about subscribing with this number of classic strategy games (that I never got to play when I was younger).

That being said, you can't go wrong with Starships Unlimited. I love the game for some quick, "nuke'm till they glow" fun. Don't expect Imperium Galactica, GalCiv, or MoO, but more a fast and furious, ship heavy exploration game.

And can we not get this thread locked please, aside from an apparent side conversation, this thread has some very interesting reading. Why not start a new thread called "Why RH sucks/is a God" and take it there?

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 51

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/18/2007 11:44:41 PM

Zap

Posts: 3705
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

And can we not get this thread locked please, aside from an apparent side conversation, this thread has some very interesting reading. Why not start a new thread called "Why RH sucks/is a God" and take it there?

SoM

RH wrote " I win you always lose. ;) "

The outright winner is not conclusive. Can't a coin toss be done. Then we would know for sure. "Heads ,I win. Tails you loose"

< Message edited by Zap -- 12/18/2007 11:54:55 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 52

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 12:12:12 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

You know... speaking of "choreless Grand Strategy," I just found out that the Gametap Gold service (which costs $10 monthly) allows you access to Panzer General II and the Panzer General spinoff game! Not to mention also having Age of Sail III, Space Empires IV and V, Gates of Troy, Laser Squad Nemesis, Armored Fist 3 and... nostalgia getting the best of me... The Ancient Art of War series (at Sea and in the Sky)! I tried Gametap out a while back and they had limited selection... now it looks like they are catering to a more expanded market than people nostalgic for their Segas and Nintendos. Heck, they even said that Dangerous Waters is coming soon! I am seriously thinking about subscribing with this number of classic strategy games (that I never got to play when I was younger).

That being said, you can't go wrong with Starships Unlimited. I love the game for some quick, "nuke'm till they glow" fun. Don't expect Imperium Galactica, GalCiv, or MoO, but more a fast and furious, ship heavy exploration game.

And can we not get this thread locked please, aside from an apparent side conversation, this thread has some very interesting reading. Why not start a new thread called "Why RH sucks/is a God" and take it there?

SoM

Agree SOM you and "I" are the only sane ones here. The rest are ranting and trolling. Well the usual rest I should say. The newcomers are being very polite as well. FYI you newcomers just ignore people like Sterecke, JD and Jim_H and oh I guess Hell Patrol as well and one of the SARGES and you'll have a wonderful time of gaining TRUTHFUL information from the likes of ME and SOM and WODIN and oh Veldor and a few others. Those few I mentioned just like to troll. If you notice they follow ME to a thread more often than I go into one they have started. ;)

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 53

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 1:47:10 AM

ezzler

Posts: 856
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Someone has to say it so ...

We want age of rifles .. we want Master of Magic .. we want Master of orion .. We want panzer General .. We want the grandest fleet .. we want Buzz Aldrins race into space .. We want Civil war generals .. We want Battle of britain .. [well some of us do }

In other words where are all the Wargame Lite OR if you like Pretzel Plus games.

boardwargaming has been moving to slicker more intuitive , swifter less time consuming games for a decade.

I look at the bombing the reich game and think I am not buying that again . Not because it won't be good , but it was a chore last time and looks even more detailed now.. WITP rides again.

Notagrog , i couldn't agree more. The drag and drop of ACW has left it unplayed on my Hd. The multiple multiple modifiers for each leader.. on and on it goes .. more depth, more features and a lot more time.

My hope lies in the lock n load conversions here.

And just for the exception that proves the rule all these klunky unfriendly interfaces and difficult implementaion methods seem to be being regulary addressed and helped along over at the WIF forum. Maybe this is the way to get a really decent game. { just takes 5+ years ! }

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 54

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 1:55:51 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz

Someone has to say it so ...

We want age of rifles .. we want Master of Magic .. we want Master of orion .. We want panzer General .. We want the grandest fleet� .. we want Buzz Aldrins race into space .. We want Civil war generals .. We want Battle of britain .. [well some of us do }

In other words where are all the Wargame Lite OR if you like Pretzel Plus games.

boardwargaming has been moving to slicker more intuitive , swifter less time consuming games for a decade.

I look at the bombing the reich game and think I am not buying that again . Not because it won't be good , but it was a chore last time and looks even more detailed now.. WITP rides again.

Notagrog , i couldn't agree more. The drag and drop of ACW has left it unplayed on my Hd. The multiple multiple modifiers for each leader.. on and on it goes .. more depth, more features and a lot more time.

My hope lies in the lock n load conversions here.

And just for the exception that proves the rule all these klunky unfriendly interfaces and difficult� implementaion methods seem to be being regulary addressed and helped along over at the WIF forum. Maybe this is the way to get a really decent game. { just takes 5+ years ! }

Amen Ezz where are all the FUN 2-4 hours wargames anymore?? Like Operation Crusader someone was just talking about. Where's the you get 4 provinces and I get four provinces and everyone else who plays gets four provinces and last man standing wins? Remember that bot football game? Was it called Cyber sports? I forget but it was like a wargame played like a football game and you launched missles and stuff to wipe out the other guys while running interference for your bot quarterback. Damn wish I could remember that game. It was a blast to play back in my Amiga days.

There was another one I had where each side got 4 or 6 robots and I believe there were up to four playable sides. And you snuck around and tossed grenades and shot at each other kinda like X-Com only vs each other in a small playing area with a few fences or walls to hide behind and bushes I think. Another fun 1-2 hour game for the AMiga.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 12/19/2007 1:58:20 AM >

(in reply to ezzler)

Post #: 55

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 2:00:01 AM

hazxan

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I'm sorry, but after a half hour, for a game like FoF, you have missed it. That's nowhere near enough to cut into it...though I do understand that the interface can put you off in that time. It will be sad if you do not visit it again, because the game is, by far, imo, the best game from Matrix.

Point taken! Maybe I'm hyper sensitive as designing software UI is part of my day job. There's a technique in software called "hallway testing" or similar. Basically you stop a random person in the hall, sit them down in front of your software to use it from scratch. It really shows up the clunks and flaws. So that first half hour is not invalid.

Also, virtually all games have a short-ish half life. The chance of me liking any game as much after 30 days as 30 mins is slim. eg I loved AGEODS game after half an hour, struggled with it after 2 weeks and gave up on it after 2 months!

Interested to hear Age of Empires 3 recommended. I generally can't get on with RTS's, but recently picked up AOE2 cheap and am having lots of guilty pleasure with it!

Back to original question. Why does a grand strategy game have to take 50+ hours to complete? To use the ACW as an example, I think AGEOD could have gone up a level of unit scale (divisions?), scrapped the lowest level, quartered the number of provinces and map size and the game would have been just as good - only playable twice as fast.

And now to speculate why so many here battle with unhelpful interfaces to get their gaming fix:
Imagine if AGEODS ACW (or FoF for that matter ) had the same engine but was 'skinned' so that it was total fantasy - infantry became orcs, cavalry were centaurs. Map the same but all state and town names changed so Washington was Helmsdeep etc. All Generals names changed to be suitably Tolkeinesque. Would those who like the current games actually still play it? The depth of strategy would be absolutely identical, but I'm guessing that a lot who love the current games would find the fantasy skin a total turn off and completely unplayable.

My (totally speculative) point being that for BIG historical strategy games, as long as the developers get a vast amount of historical names, references and events on display, the game engine itself is largely irrelevant.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 56

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 2:18:41 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 34830
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online

Allright, let's knock off the side discussions, this is too good a thread...

"In other words where are all the Wargame Lite OR if you like Pretzel Plus games."

They're out there and we certainly have quite a few in our catalog, but you may not hear about them the most as we tend to have a fairly "grognard" crowd. We do try to get a few "beer and pretzels" releases in each year however as we also enjoy games that don't make us work hard from time to time.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to hazxan)

Post #: 57

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 2:20:09 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

I would like the fantasy skin from the FOF game. Hell yeah, I'd be on cloud nine for a FOF type Fantasy game in the Lord of the Rings style of play. There's just not any good Lord of the Rings games out there to play. I have one from the C=64 days "War in the Middle Earth" and it suks for combat play, but, the map is huge (and the paper map that came with it is like 48x36 or 48x30 it's huge looks just like the one in the movie) and getting from the Shire to Mt. Doom is perfect with all the battles inbetween and stuff, but, the combat engine is one of the worst I ever saw.

Man I'd pay $60 for a good turn based Lord of the Rings type game. I really enjoy fantasy turn based games. But, there hasn't been a GREAT one since Master of Magic. Age of Wonders suks and HOMM is merely ok, it's not all that, but, II & III are pretty good. What I don't like in those types of Fantasy games is the LINEAR building sequences you always go thru. Build a town hall, then build a castle then build oh I forget, but, it was a linear sequence to good income by building in a certain order and if you didn't build in that order you fell behind and usually lost to other human players. I hate that crap. It's like reading the same book over and over with those same sequence build types of games. Even MOM has the linear build sequences, but, it does give you a bit more paths to take, but, you still gotta follow that gold pattern of building to keep up. Plus HOMM you always saw the goodies you were going to get, whereas in MOM you had to fight your way past the monsters and then you discovered what you were going to get after you beat them. MOM is still the best fantasy turn based game I've ever played. I played Fantasy General also and it just didn't compare.

(in reply to hazxan)

Post #: 58

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 2:26:44 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

Thanks, ravinhood. I specialize in strategy rather than tactics, but I have played battle games occasionally in the past.

Oh Erik mentioned "Carriers at War" yeah I'd recommend this one also as a quick 1-2 hour play type of game. If you like naval fighting games.

I'm hoping they can get "Europe Ablaze" as that was one of the other favorite games from SSG I enjoyed back in the day. It also was an easy 1-2 hour play. Quite easy to play, but, hard to master. I got stomped by the British airpower more times than once. hahah

The "Battlefront" game might be another that offers short playing times. I never got into the Battlefront series, but, I seem to recall them not taking very long when I played them years ago. Panzer something or other is the one I have. There's a Civil War series of these old SSG Battlefront type of games as well out there somewheres.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 12/19/2007 2:28:43 AM >

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)

Post #: 59

RE: Looking for strategy games without chores - 12/19/2007 2:33:33 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotaGrog
Point taken! Maybe I'm hyper sensitive as designing software UI is part of my day job. There's a technique in software called "hallway testing" or similar. Basically you stop a random person in the hall, sit them down in front of your software to use it from scratch. It really shows up the clunks and flaws. So that first half hour is not invalid.

All your statements echo what I've said for the last half-decade here. Somehow there is this flawed thought out there that Wargamers are "different" from every other person. Maybe just different or maybe "better", maybe "smarter", maybe "more tolerant". But in the end sorry to tell you all we are no different than anyone else.

A bad UI is a bad UI. Wargames are not anymore complex than plenty of business applications or even other games like certain MMOs out there. Yet any of those other things are far more intuitive to use than the average wargame.

quote:

And now to speculate why so many here battle with unhelpful interfaces to get their gaming fix:
Imagine if AGEODS ACW (or FoF for that matter ) had the same engine but was 'skinned' so that it was total fantasy - infantry became orcs, cavalry were centaurs. Map the same but all state and town names changed so Washington was Helmsdeep etc. All Generals names changed to be suitably Tolkeinesque. Would those who like the current games actually still play it? The depth of strategy would be absolutely identical, but I'm guessing that a lot who love the current games would find the fantasy skin a total turn off and completely unplayable.

Yup cuz wargamers are "better than that". Fantasy would be too much of a "game" and we don't play games we play "historical simulations" that "recreate history".

I gave up long ago on this though. I think part of the confusion lies in a misrepresentation by forum posters. People who are put off by poor UIs and such just go away and move on to other things. Its therefore more prevelant to see the average online wargamers care more about arguing over which hex a city really should be in or what exactly the modifier for something should be than they care about anything of any actual design consequence.

Sad to me really when 2000 hours are spent researching biographies and backgrounds for leaders and units most players probably never even read and only 2 hours go into researching how to best layout all the interfaces and controls. Perhaps this partially lies in where a developers motivation for making the game comes from in the first place.

This also feeds into the "no demo" argument in my opinion. A properly designed UI would make the game easy and fun to pickup and play regardless of ultimate difficulty. (A possible poor but interesting example is most MMO's. Do you know how ungodly complicated Everquest II is??? Yet anyone can download and play the demo, have fun, get hooked, and buy it without needing to read so much as a single page of print). All the other layers are there once your ready for them.

I've zero patience for a poor UI. I think for many of us its because we've seen what a good UI is both in gaming and elsewhere. Maybe wargames are going to forever continue to only cater to those sheltered few who play nothing else and "don't know any better". The "Historical Simulations" types who wouldn't dare play a "game".

I do think that Matrix, Developers, or anyone listen to feedback and act upon it. The truth is though that most players know better how to articulate a complaint about ultra minor historical accuracy improvement than they would a suggestion for UI improvement etc. Thus I think its just the general "sense" that thats whats of more importance (That is Minor historical nitpicks rather than UI optimizations).

At this point I've given up on ever seeing that change. I love that the average wargame can't seem to get past lining up a hundred buttons in a row and calling it done. Let's try a little harder than that next time pretty please?

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(in reply to hazxan)

Post #: 60