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Looking for a new game - 11/11/2007 4:38:43 AM   
allthumbsed

 

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Hello, I am new to this forum, but I am not new to matrix games. I have tried a few of the games found on this site, and I was wondering if anyone can subject a good strategy games with a deep, solid political side as well. The last few games I tried were great strategy games, but the political aspects of them were very, 'surface' (if you know what I mean). Anyway, thanks in advance.

< Message edited by allthumbsed -- 11/11/2007 5:35:12 AM >
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/11/2007 5:32:17 AM   
jchastain


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It is not the newest game in the catalog, but have you looked at Crown of Glory?  Diplomacy is definitely a central element with a very powerful treaty editor, declarations of protectorates and a multi-polar diplomatic relations system.  I'll warn you that there is also a significant amount of economic planning and management.  But if that is in line with what you're looking for, you might want to take a look.

I haven't been involved with EiA and therefore cannot recommend it, in fact, it hasn't been released yet (though it is expected by year end) but you might look there as well if CoG doesn't appeal to you as the Napoleonic period just yields itself well to grand diplomacy.

Good Luck!

(in reply to allthumbsed)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/11/2007 5:36:38 AM   
allthumbsed

 

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Thank you, I will take a look. I would LOVE to find a game that was all politics, (internal, and diplomatic) I do remember one to do with the continental congress from WAY back, it had to do with gaining independence for England. You could try for full independence or, dominion status, etc. God I would love to find a modern game even half as fun.

(in reply to jchastain)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/11/2007 6:08:02 AM   
Neilster


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It won't be out for about 6 months (fingers crossed) but check out the World in Flames thread. It's a strategic level WW2 game that has a fair amount of politics. It's mostly a wargame though but it promises to be an absolute cracker.

Welcome to the forum, man.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to allthumbsed)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/11/2007 6:33:01 AM   
allthumbsed

 

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Sounds a lot like hearts of Iron. I am a huge Paradox fan. My favorite game of the last 4 years is crusader kings. God, I never get enough of that game.

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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/11/2007 6:40:03 AM   
ravinhood


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Did you get Deus Vult Althumbsed? It's available now.

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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/11/2007 6:45:34 AM   
allthumbsed

 

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Oh ya, and I haven't stopped playing it since. :) It really added a lot, for being such a small update.

< Message edited by allthumbsed -- 11/11/2007 7:58:58 AM >

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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/12/2007 8:21:54 AM   
ravinhood


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Most games I've played with political/ally aspects haven't ever done very well. Most of the politics in games are nothing more than a delaying action of when the AI is going to backstab you and attack. Or they just do rediculous things like sue for peace and give you 10000 of whatever the currency is and then the next turn or even the same turn declare war on you again. HOI has a lot of "events", but, I wouldn't say it's that political, much of the alliances in that game are set in stone anyways from the events. Like trying to get the US to side with you as Germany and attack Russia (not that you even need an alliance to attack Russia and win in that game). Not saying it can't or won't happen, but, it is definitely something that's a rarity. Galactic Civilizations II has some decent diplomacy of most all of them I've played though it is still very limited. It's more of a trading diplomacy (the one thing I find that's rather stupid in GC II is that enemies will trade with you even during a war with them lol), but, at least the alliances work in it. Oh and Spartan has another fair diplomacy system. There's over 50 diplomatic features in it and if you play conquer the map as I do you can get some decent alliances if you play it right, but, it's failure is that it won't backstab you and thus gives the player the advantage in the long run of picking their time to backstab the computer AI. Crusader kings had alliance diplomacy and that's about it. The alliances are usually weak ones, they don't last very long and it's rare the computer AI will ever come to your aid unless you have an extreme advantage and of course there's something in it for the alliance AI to take from you during the war.

For the most part political diplomacy just doesn't work in most games because the AI is lame using it. It's ok for trade agreements and short term alliances, but, when it comes to wheeling and dealing for provinces or border openings or even coming to your aid when needed they have all been pretty lame. There shouldn't even be border opening approval when people are playing against the AI because it's one of the biggest exploits players use to get close to the AI cities or capitals. I know I use it in every game that allows it. It's a pretty stupid AI that opens its borders and then allows you to set 3 full stacks of units on its capital doorsteps or any of its other towns/cities/planets and then just freely pick your time and moment to attack. Never liked that structure of open borders in games. Civilization does it, Age of Wonders does it, GalCiv does it, Spartan does it, in fact just about every game that has that open door policy. Humans cannot be trusted and thus AI's should be programmed to not trust them...ever.

(in reply to allthumbsed)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/12/2007 9:14:20 AM   
freeboy

 

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Well, the MTW2 diplomacy really did not work because in the words of Sega, "we used two conflicting sets of ia, the one for the diplomatic and one for the military"
The next generation total war, weather it worksor not is yet to be seen, tested?, should do a better job.
I actually think the diplomacy in Eropa Uni 3 is pretty cool, but like all ai only games they do tend to get dull.

Just a plug  , many matrix games are pbem compatible, lots of dimplomacy there! lol

(in reply to ravinhood)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/12/2007 1:54:45 PM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthumbsed

Sounds a lot like hearts of Iron. I am a huge Paradox fan. My favorite game of the last 4 years is crusader kings. God, I never get enough of that game.


Maybe a bit but it's hex-based and more like a traditional wargame as far as combat goes. It just has a lot of grand strategy, U.S. entry, resource transportation, production, lend-lease etc as well. Additionally there are nearly 100 optional rules to add more chrome if wanted.

The whole world is modelled at this scale (although this is a fairly zoomed in view. Mostly you would be looking at more of the map than this). There are about 70,200 hexes.

Cheers, Neilster











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< Message edited by Neilster -- 11/12/2007 1:59:58 PM >

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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/12/2007 3:35:18 PM   
Ironclad

 

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It does look impressive. How complex is it and any idea how good the AI will be?

For a game with an excellent combination of strategic play and tactical battles I would strongly recommend Forge of Freedom. Admittedly set in the Civil War it has very basic foreign diplomacy but it does include the effects on the war effort of internal politics ie State Governors.

< Message edited by Ironclad -- 11/12/2007 3:52:12 PM >

(in reply to Neilster)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/12/2007 5:14:22 PM   
Neilster


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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

It does look impressive. How complex is it and any idea how good the AI will be?

For a game with an excellent combination of strategic play and tactical battles I would strongly recommend Forge of Freedom. Admittedly set in the Civil War it has very basic foreign diplomacy but it does include the effects on the war effort of internal politics ie State Governors.


MWiF (Matrix World in Flames) is the long awaited computer version of the board wargame WiF. WiF is a complex game (especially if played with all the optional additions and rules) but one of the great things about MWiF is that the CPU will be doing all the time-consuming and mentally exhausting rule checking and arithmetic. This means that the extra chrome is really no burden and it greatly adds to the realism and interest.

Although there's a fair bit to learn, the vast majority of the game is spent in the combat impulses which are relatively quickly picked up (although the interplay of air, naval and land combat is very subtle). A lot of the tricky to remember stuff occurs at the end of each 2 month turn, where the convoy placement, production, partisans and a heap of other things takes place. Each turn consists of a semi-random number of alternating impulses by the Axis and Allies, with more in the summer months and less in the winter to model the effect of weather on campaigning.

Because it is a conversion of a board game that has gone through several revisions over many years, the system is pretty finely tuned and well balanced. Optional rules can be used to adjust the balance if one feels that is necessary too. An additional benefit is that there is a large pool of WiF experts who are providing help with the AI. If you go to the MWiF thread and look at the AI threads for each major power, it's amazing how the best strategies and tactics have been thrashed out among these guys. Here's an example: the AI thread for Germany...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=979605

I'm not a WiF expert but from what I've seen, the AI looks like it will be highly competent at least. Of course many people will want to play online and that will be possible through both TCP/IP and by email.

I think the best thing about the project is that the programmer Steve is an experienced Wiffer who is passionate about getting it right. He has wisely recruited the WiF community to contribute in various ways in a Wiki-like fashion, where he arbitrates where necessary. He's the first to admit this will radically improve the final product.

Here's some more examples of screens. The first is just to demonstrate various units and is not a realistic game screen. Also, all of the screenshots suffer both from a lack of final polish and from JPEG artefacts. The real game screens will be superior. Also, there's an error in the yellow (Chinese) infantry in the third screen. It should say "Non elite (black numbers)"

Cheers, Neilster











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< Message edited by Neilster -- 11/12/2007 5:18:32 PM >

(in reply to Ironclad)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/12/2007 6:42:59 PM   
Ironclad

 

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Thanks that is very helpful. I have dipped into the WiF forum occasionally but this is the first time that I have seen the counter information explained. A more complicated and detailed game about WW2 is definitely appealing, although hopefully not as demanding as WITP which has proved too much for me.

(in reply to Neilster)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/12/2007 7:24:15 PM   
EUBanana


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Wow.  WiF looks droolworthy.

I'll add that to my list...


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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/13/2007 2:40:14 AM   
allthumbsed

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

It does look impressive. How complex is it and any idea how good the AI will be?

For a game with an excellent combination of strategic play and tactical battles I would strongly recommend Forge of Freedom. Admittedly set in the Civil War it has very basic foreign diplomacy but it does include the effects on the war effort of internal politics ie State Governors.


Ya, after looking through the forums I Picked that one up yesterday. Being used to Paradox games I am finding it a tad complicated, but I am quite enjoying it. Does anyone know of any well done games about running for office (american or otherwise?) I have tried a few (I think that last one I tried was power politics) and none of them really clicked with me.

< Message edited by allthumbsed -- 11/13/2007 2:45:52 AM >

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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/13/2007 5:23:14 AM   
Neilster


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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

Thanks that is very helpful. I have dipped into the WiF forum occasionally but this is the first time that I have seen the counter information explained. A more complicated and detailed game about WW2 is definitely appealing, although hopefully not as demanding as WITP which has proved too much for me.

It's certainly not as complicated as WitP from what I've seen of that. Each land counter generally represents a corps sized unit (with exceptions. There can be divisional and even Army sized ones). Naval units usually represent 1 or 2 large ships or several escorts. Air units portray several hundred aircraft. If that sounds coarse-grained, trust me, there are still a lot of units when the whole Earth is the battlefield. The Eastern Front is a biiiig place, as is the Pacific Theatre and as the Allies you will have convoys stretching around the globe (with dastardly Axis submarines and raiders trying to take them out ).

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Ironclad)
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RE: Looking for a new game - 11/13/2007 5:27:02 AM   
Reiryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

It does look impressive. How complex is it and any idea how good the AI will be?

For a game with an excellent combination of strategic play and tactical battles I would strongly recommend Forge of Freedom. Admittedly set in the Civil War it has very basic foreign diplomacy but it does include the effects on the war effort of internal politics ie State Governors.


I agree with forge of freedom as as earlier mentioned, crown of glory. Both excellent games, but given the original poster's request for more diplomacy, then crown of glory would probably suit better.

I'd also add ageod's american civil war game also sold here. While the diplomacy is limited, the rest of the game is quite entertaining.

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