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Tibbetts has passed on - 11/1/2007 7:13:32 PM   
spence

 

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071101/ap_on_re_us/obit_tibbets
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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/1/2007 9:20:04 PM   
joey


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I heard about it this morning also. I notice he wanted no funeral and no grave stone. I guess he considered the ramifications of those.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 2
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/1/2007 9:34:10 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I heard about it this morning also. I notice he wanted no funeral and no grave stone. I guess he considered the ramifications of those.

Sounds as though it could have caused issues...I'm surprised. I doubt 98% of America even knows who he was.

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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/1/2007 9:49:19 PM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I heard about it this morning also. I notice he wanted no funeral and no grave stone. I guess he considered the ramifications of those.

Sounds as though it could have caused issues...I'm surprised. I doubt 98% of America even knows who he was.


The lunatic fringe in the 2% is enough.


_____________________________

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Tho. Jackson

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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/1/2007 10:03:31 PM   
sprior


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Another link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7073441.stm

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(in reply to AU Tiger_MatrixForum)
Post #: 5
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 12:45:15 AM   
BrucePowers


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He said he wanted his ashes spread over the English Channel.

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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 4:09:42 AM   
Ian R

 

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I think it speaks very ill of the sensationalist press and its muck rakers to attack people like Bomber Harris and Tibbetts - they did their job when their country asked them to. Why have they been selected for criticism now? Why not the Chiefs of Staff who gave them their orders?

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Ian R

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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 4:33:53 AM   
joey


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It sure says something about society. Doesn't it?

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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 4:45:46 AM   
Fishbed

 

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quote:

I think it speaks very ill of the sensationalist press and its muck rakers to attack people like Bomber Harris and Tibbetts - they did their job when their country asked them to. Why have they been selected for criticism now? Why not the Chiefs of Staff who gave them their orders?


Well Tibbetts had a job to do. He wouldn't have done it, someone else would have.
Now Bomber Harris wasn't some flight officer who was supposed to listen to his hierarchy. Im pretty sure some Bomber Command crews are pretty convinced there were different ways to do the job Bomber Harris was "asked" to. But sure he knew so much better than those flying lunatics...


< Message edited by Fishbed -- 11/2/2007 4:51:51 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 10:50:15 AM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

It sure says something about society. Doesn't it?


Not society...It sez a lot about the media.


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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 3:48:17 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

He said he wanted his ashes spread over the English Channel.


Yes; at one time he was a bomber pilot in Europe and crossed the Channel many times.

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Post #: 11
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 3:52:43 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I think it speaks very ill of the sensationalist press and its muck rakers to attack people like Bomber Harris and Tibbetts - they did their job when their country asked them to. Why have they been selected for criticism now? Why not the Chiefs of Staff who gave them their orders?


Tibbits got the OK for his mission from the highest authority in the land: President Truman.

_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 12
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 3:54:44 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I heard about it this morning also. I notice he wanted no funeral and no grave stone. I guess he considered the ramifications of those.


Re Washington Post: "In interviews, Gen. Tibbets said he did not want a funeral or headstone because he did not want to attract protesters to his burial site."



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Post #: 13
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 4:07:31 PM   
Joe D.


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Excerpts from Tibbits obit in today's Washington Post:

"... Gen. Tibbets was depicted by Hollywood leading man Robert Taylor in "Above and Beyond," a 1952 fictional account of the airman's life leading to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima ...

... His decorations included the Distinguished Service Cross, the Legion of Merit and the Distinguished Flying Cross ...

.. Gen. Tibbets was angered by the planned 50th anniversary exhibit of the Enola Gay at the Smithsonian Institution, which included a long explanation of the suffering caused by the atomic attacks. He and veterans groups said there was not enough about Japanese villainy during the war. The Smithsonian exhibit, at the National Air and Space Museum, went ahead without commentary or analysis ...

... Tibbets said that he met with President Harry S. Truman in 1948 in the Oval Office and that the president asked the airman if he had regrets. As he would for the rest of his life, Gen. Tibbets replied that he had none and had done his duty to protect the country ... "

Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.




_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 14
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 4:12:40 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I think it speaks very ill of the sensationalist press and its muck rakers to attack people like Bomber Harris and Tibbetts - they did their job when their country asked them to. Why have they been selected for criticism now? Why not the Chiefs of Staff who gave them their orders?

Who are the sensationalists and muck rakers....I have yet to hear a story of Tibbetts that was not respectful.

Edit: by the way, heard an interview with Tibbetts later in his life. Turns out part of the reason he didn't want to be buried was that he wanted his ashes scattered over the North Sea. He said, "Some of my most peaceful times flying were over the North Sea"

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 11/2/2007 4:24:08 PM >


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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 4:49:47 PM   
Ian R

 

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I've seen plenty from the champagne socilaist "journalists" who are all too eager to quote the mayor of Dresden or Hiroshioma: "X is a war crim" stuff. They do it to be sensational, get a by-line to self agrandize and generate advertising revenue, not for any reason to do with reporting anything resembling news.

Shame on them.

I'm not sure which country you're in, niceguy2005, perhaps you have escaped seeing it - if so, good.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 11/2/2007 4:51:21 PM >


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Ian R

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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 5:32:07 PM   
Klahn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.



I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing. These were the same people that threw themselves and their infant children over cliffs rather than be captured by American forces. They willfully flew aircraft into ships. The only fate they were afraid of was defeat by the Soviets. Historical documents from Japan show that the decision to surrender was based totally on the Soviet war declaration. The atomic bombings were hardly even mentioned in the discussions.

That being said, the United States certainly didn't know any of this at the time. The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on... Gen. Tibbets has every reason to be proud of his service. He performed his duties honorably and deserves the respect reserved for all veterans of that war. I'm quite happy that he was able to live the rest of his life with a clear concience.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 17
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 5:36:05 PM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryvan




I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing. These were the same people that threw themselves and their infant children over cliffs rather than be captured by American forces. They willfully flew aircraft into ships. The only fate they were afraid of was defeat by the Soviets. Historical documents from Japan show that the decision to surrender was based totally on the Soviet war declaration. The atomic bombings were hardly even mentioned in the discussions.

That being said, the United States certainly didn't know any of this at the time. The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on... Gen. Tibbets has every reason to be proud of his service. He performed his duties honorably and deserves the respect reserved for all veterans of that war. I'm quite happy that he was able to live the rest of his life with a clear concience.



Here we go again...



Edit: The Mods may want to go ahead and lock this thread now.


< Message edited by AU Tiger -- 11/2/2007 5:41:24 PM >


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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 6:16:05 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I think it speaks very ill of the sensationalist press and its muck rakers to attack people like Bomber Harris and Tibbetts ...


Who are the sensationalists and muck rakers .... I have yet to hear a story of Tibbetts that was not respectful ...


Fortunately you won't hear disrespect in an obit, but Tibbits complained about what reporters had either written about him and his mission, or attributed to his critics in today's Washing Post story; in fact the Post had to use an "expletive deleted" to describe what Tibbits said re this kind of "reporting".

I can only imagine what was said re Harris; no one likes the idea of bombing civilian populations. But Tibbits claimed there wasn't a war fought w/o civilain casulaties and that it was their "tough luck for being there" or words to that effect!

I guess that makes him the perfect personality type to drop an A-bomb on someone.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to niceguy2005)
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RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 6:29:36 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryvan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.


I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing
...


I think that after the 2nd A-bomb the Japanese realized their entire culture and way of life was going up in smoke; rumor was the Allies only had one A-bomb.

quote:


... The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on ...


Author Kurt Vonegut basically felt the same way re the fire storm that consumed Dresden; there was never the moral outcry as was over Hiroshima.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Klahn)
Post #: 20
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 6:35:07 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryvan




I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing. These were the same people that threw themselves and their infant children over cliffs rather than be captured by American forces. They willfully flew aircraft into ships. The only fate they were afraid of was defeat by the Soviets. Historical documents from Japan show that the decision to surrender was based totally on the Soviet war declaration. The atomic bombings were hardly even mentioned in the discussions.

That being said, the United States certainly didn't know any of this at the time. The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on... Gen. Tibbets has every reason to be proud of his service. He performed his duties honorably and deserves the respect reserved for all veterans of that war. I'm quite happy that he was able to live the rest of his life with a clear concience.



Here we go again...





Well, gee... Didn't we know in advance that this would happen?

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Post #: 21
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 6:40:05 PM   
BrucePowers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Excerpts from Tibbits obit in today's Washington Post:

"... Gen. Tibbets was depicted by Hollywood leading man Robert Taylor in "Above and Beyond," a 1952 fictional account of the airman's life leading to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima ...

... His decorations included the Distinguished Service Cross, the Legion of Merit and the Distinguished Flying Cross ...

.. Gen. Tibbets was angered by the planned 50th anniversary exhibit of the Enola Gay at the Smithsonian Institution, which included a long explanation of the suffering caused by the atomic attacks. He and veterans groups said there was not enough about Japanese villainy during the war. The Smithsonian exhibit, at the National Air and Space Museum, went ahead without commentary or analysis ...

... Tibbets said that he met with President Harry S. Truman in 1948 in the Oval Office and that the president asked the airman if he had regrets. As he would for the rest of his life, Gen. Tibbets replied that he had none and had done his duty to protect the country ... "

Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.






Very true. One of my co-workers' father was slated for that op. My mother and father, both in Europe in WWII, could have ended up over there.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 22
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 7:35:34 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I think it speaks very ill of the sensationalist press and its muck rakers to attack people like Bomber Harris and Tibbetts ...


Who are the sensationalists and muck rakers .... I have yet to hear a story of Tibbetts that was not respectful ...


Fortunately you won't hear disrespect in an obit, but Tibbits complained about what reporters had either written about him and his mission, or attributed to his critics in today's Washing Post story; in fact the Post had to use an "expletive deleted" to describe what Tibbits said re this kind of "reporting".

I can only imagine what was said re Harris; no one likes the idea of bombing civilian populations. But Tibbits claimed there wasn't a war fought w/o civilain casulaties and that it was their "tough luck for being there" or words to that effect!

I guess that makes him the perfect personality type to drop an A-bomb on someone.

Joe, I can't disagree with you...sounds like Tibbetts was the best man for the job.

If ever there was a solemn duty to be performed that must have been it and by all accounts he carried it out with great professionalism and honor. He saw a lot of things over the course of his life and was at an age in the 60s and 70s when a man tends to look back on his legacy. Must have been a hard thing to do considering what was going on in America at that time. I'm sure the reporters then were very unkind.

It's also a shame that a man's funeral becomes a political statement, for one side or another. It should be a time for family and friends.

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Post #: 23
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 7:41:09 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:


... The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on ...


Author Kurt Vonegut basically felt the same way re the fire storm that consumed Dresden; there was never the moral outcry as was over Hiroshima.



I think I'd have to agree with Kurt...God willing we'll never see another war like that.

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Post #: 24
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 7:46:12 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I've seen plenty from the champagne socilaist "journalists" who are all too eager to quote the mayor of Dresden or Hiroshioma: "X is a war crim" stuff. They do it to be sensational, get a by-line to self agrandize and generate advertising revenue, not for any reason to do with reporting anything resembling news.

Shame on them.

I'm not sure which country you're in, niceguy2005, perhaps you have escaped seeing it - if so, good.

I'm from the U.S. I have never seen an article like that from a reputable source and I don't read or listen to the hate mongering fringe, left or right.

If you have a source with an actual quote I'd be interested, I'd love to send the author a nasty-gram. However, it would be best to send it PM as I think this sort of stuff should be done off line.

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Post #: 25
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/2/2007 10:52:30 PM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryvan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Amen to that; some of us might not be posting here as our fathers were slated to invade Japan after defeating Germany.



I don't think the a-bomb shortned the war by more than a day or two. There never would have been an invasion of Japan. The event that made Japan surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The Japanese were not afraid of death by atomic bombing. These were the same people that threw themselves and their infant children over cliffs rather than be captured by American forces. They willfully flew aircraft into ships. The only fate they were afraid of was defeat by the Soviets. Historical documents from Japan show that the decision to surrender was based totally on the Soviet war declaration. The atomic bombings were hardly even mentioned in the discussions.

That being said, the United States certainly didn't know any of this at the time. The atomic bombings were no more morally wrong than the fire bombing of Japan's paper cities, the fire-storms over Germany, the indiscriminate bombing and rocket attacks on London, the maltreatment of POWs, the rape of Nanking, and so on... Gen. Tibbets has every reason to be proud of his service. He performed his duties honorably and deserves the respect reserved for all veterans of that war. I'm quite happy that he was able to live the rest of his life with a clear concience.


One can debate the morality of using atomic bombs and their effect of ending the war quicker all day long and still not settle a thing. People have their opinions and you/I/we/they are unlikely to change them.

There is no morality in war. Morality is a luxury that only a people living in peace can enjoy. Some countries try to maintain a semblance of morality during war, others could care less.

IMO, had the bombs not been dropped, Japan may have to chosen to continue resistance until invaded and conquered. Its very unlikely that a simple declaration of war by Russian would have prompted their surrender. Without the bombs, Japan would need to be invaded.

The question is would have been the Russians or the US to first invade? Its highly likely that without the bombings to prompt the surrender, Russia would have invaded northern Japan and conquered or controlled a large portion of the home islands before the US was able to land. Had that happened we would have had a situation similar to that in Europe after the war. But instead of an "Iron Curtain" we would be calling it a "Rice" or "Bamboo" curtain.

Today's moralists are the same ones that wanted immediate action following 9/11 and are now crying loud and long about how immoral it is that they got what they asked for.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
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(in reply to Klahn)
Post #: 26
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/3/2007 6:02:18 AM   
whippleofd

 

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Ya know Chez, I agree with you Chief.

But all these replies are missing the point.

Another WW2 vet has passed away.

Be it an Officer of a B-29, be it a squad leader of something we will NEVER know, be it a top turrent Sgt of a B-17. I have just one thing to say...

*salutes*

Those of you who want to debate this.... SHAME ON YOU!

Whipple

_____________________________

MMCS(SW/AW) 1981-2001
1981 RTC, SD
81-82 NPS, Orlando
82-85 NPTU, Idaho Falls
85-90 USS Truxtun (CGN-35)
90-93 USS George Washington (CVN-73)
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(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 27
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/3/2007 6:36:11 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipple

Ya know Chez, I agree with you Chief.

But all these replies are missing the point.

Another WW2 vet has passed away.

Be it an Officer of a B-29, be it a squad leader of something we will NEVER know, be it a top turrent Sgt of a B-17. I have just one thing to say...

*salutes*

Those of you who want to debate this.... SHAME ON YOU!

Whipple


And I absolutely agree with you. It matters not their rank, their position or their duty in war. The fact is that the vast majority of combatants, friend and foe, fought as honorably as they could under extreme circumstances that few of us have ever experienced.

Whether its Tibbits, Sakai, or any one of the millions of people called upon to do their part, they did it to the best of their ability and they deserve our respect.

Chez


_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

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Post #: 28
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/3/2007 6:47:07 AM   
Nikademus


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R.I.P.



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Post #: 29
RE: Tibbetts has passed on - 11/3/2007 6:52:04 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I've seen plenty from the champagne socilaist "journalists" who are all too eager to quote the mayor of Dresden or Hiroshioma: "X is a war crim" stuff. They do it to be sensational, get a by-line to self agrandize and generate advertising revenue, not for any reason to do with reporting anything resembling news.

Shame on them.

I'm not sure which country you're in, niceguy2005, perhaps you have escaped seeing it - if so, good.

I'm from the U.S. I have never seen an article like that from a reputable source and I don't read or listen to the hate mongering fringe, left or right.

If you have a source with an actual quote I'd be interested, I'd love to send the author a nasty-gram. However, it would be best to send it PM as I think this sort of stuff should be done off line.


The anniversery of Dresden is next following by Hiroshima. I'll try and remember to PM you with a URL when the usual rubbish appears.


_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 30
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