From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
We will need to agree to disagree on this point
Monty's training exercises for his men were legendary in rebuilding the morale and professionalism of the Army in England in 41/42, 3rd Div was the best performing British Div in France in 40 when he commanded and he rebuilt shattered morale of the 8th Army and led them to victory - whatever the logistical superiority the army still had to use it and for that they needed leadership he organised them to fight and win. In large degree it was as a trainer of soldiers (and officers) that Monty was at his best.
Now I am not saying Patton was bad at it (far from it - post Kasserine he also rebuilt shattered morale and prepped a green army to beat the enemy at their own game and did it at a speed that surpised a British Army that had taken two or more years to learn lessons the US forces absorbed in months)
I read Monty's opinions of US forces in Sicily and he rated them very highly indeed especially the manouverability which 8th Army lacked I cannot remember which book it was in but he underestimated US forces and by the end of Sicily was a convert. Given that was what 4 months after Kasserine no one can say Patton wasnt good in this area.
I guess I pick Monty because of the impact he had on the forces he took over and the training he instilled and the confidence he built.
Patton was a lot more fire and brimstone which was probably better just before battle but Monty edges it for me in the weeks and months before that for prepping men to fight - but the fact is whichever you pick you don't win without training the weapon and they both won....
A very fair assessment. I highlighted in bold the sentence you provided that best sums up why I would pick Patton over Monty. He had a penchent for accomplishing in a fraction of the time what other commanders took far, far longer, if ever, to achieve.
And how do their butcher's bills compare?
How long did it take to subdue Metz?
How many times did he try to turn the flanks on the north coast of Sicily?
I'm not putting him down, but somewhere in that vast library you pretend to have read, isn't there something in there about the type of opposition 8th Army was facing in the mountains on Sicily, or 21st Army Group faced in Normandy?
Personally, I think it's idiotic to compare Patton vs. Montgomery since they were similar in their approach, and commanded very different armies in very different situations. Only someone small minded would take praise of one as criticism of another. There's plenty of praise, and plenty of criticism, to be spread around for both.
But if you're trying to convince us that in your vast scholastic career of "reading books" you've gotten a handle on the respective abilities of each, you haven't demonstrated it with your huffy pronounciamentos.
You don't even seem to be remotely aware how easily you were just manauvered into taking this petty, spiteful tact.
A while back some one posted a thread with a link to comic depictions of the various "types" of forum posters. You seem to be the embodiment of the "compulsive responder". How much time to you waste dredging up documentation in an effort to "come out on top" in every debate? I find it rather comical. I, personally, post from work, where I neither have access to colection of literature, nor the time to waste dredging up simple facts to reute your barrage of umimpressive "facts".
The barrage alone is comical. Try making arguments on your own merits rather than relying on the veracity of others to prop you up. You might actually find it enjoyable.
The silliness of making a comparison at all is without a doubt the most intelligent thing you have had to say. However, BOTH of us allowed ourselves to be drawn into this silliness.
p.s. Sorry, my recollection of the naming of the comic depictions of forum users was amiss, I wouldn't want to get my facts wrong. It is the Tireless Rebutter you remind me of: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm
< Message edited by HansBolter -- 11/1/2007 1:52:33 PM >