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Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 4:21:16 AM   
Zorachus99


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The rule reads:

22.4.15 Chinese Warlords (PoliF option 71)
The Chinese warlord units represent forces loyal to one particular Warlord in China rather than the central Government. Each warlord unit has a city stated on the front of the counter. This is the warlord’s home city.

All Warlord units set up in every game on their home city and are controlled by the major power controlling the city.

Warlord units whose home city is controlled by the communist player are considered Communist units. If their city is Nationalist controlled, they are Nationalist units.

Warlord units are treated like any other unit for all purposes except that no unit may move nor advance after combat more than 2 hexes from its home city. They can attack from that 2nd hex to a hex where they could not move to, but could not advance after combat.

Example: The Lan-Chow warlord unit starts the game in Lan-Chow and is a Communist controlled unit. During the game, it moves to A0636 and participates in a communist attack to recapture a Japanese held Si-an. Although the attack is successful, the warlord unit cannot advance into Si-an, as that would put it beyond 2 hexes of Lan-Chow.
If forced to retreat from combat, the attacker must attempt to retreat them in such a way that they remain within 2 hexes of their city. However, if this is not possible, the unit is destroyed instead.

Destroyed warlord units return to the owner’s force like any other unit and may be rebuilt as usual. When they arrive as reinforcements, warlord units arrive in their home city.

When a warlord’s home city is conquered (or captured by the other Chinese faction), the warlord unit is immediately removed from the game, even before other combats are resolved (and ones that would have included their units).

Warlord units not currently in the game may be added to the force pools of the major power that controls their home city during any production step and may be built from this turn onwards.


My question:

1) Because this rule was set for the pacific map on pacific scale maps, shouldn't the warlord have a range of four hexes from its city instead of two?

_____________________________

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Post #: 1
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 4:35:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

The rule reads:

22.4.15 Chinese Warlords (PoliF option 71)
The Chinese warlord units represent forces loyal to one particular Warlord in China rather than the central Government. Each warlord unit has a city stated on the front of the counter. This is the warlord’s home city.

All Warlord units set up in every game on their home city and are controlled by the major power controlling the city.

Warlord units whose home city is controlled by the communist player are considered Communist units. If their city is Nationalist controlled, they are Nationalist units.

Warlord units are treated like any other unit for all purposes except that no unit may move nor advance after combat more than 2 hexes from its home city. They can attack from that 2nd hex to a hex where they could not move to, but could not advance after combat.

Example: The Lan-Chow warlord unit starts the game in Lan-Chow and is a Communist controlled unit. During the game, it moves to A0636 and participates in a communist attack to recapture a Japanese held Si-an. Although the attack is successful, the warlord unit cannot advance into Si-an, as that would put it beyond 2 hexes of Lan-Chow.
If forced to retreat from combat, the attacker must attempt to retreat them in such a way that they remain within 2 hexes of their city. However, if this is not possible, the unit is destroyed instead.

Destroyed warlord units return to the owner’s force like any other unit and may be rebuilt as usual. When they arrive as reinforcements, warlord units arrive in their home city.

When a warlord’s home city is conquered (or captured by the other Chinese faction), the warlord unit is immediately removed from the game, even before other combats are resolved (and ones that would have included their units).

Warlord units not currently in the game may be added to the force pools of the major power that controls their home city during any production step and may be built from this turn onwards.


My question:

1) Because this rule was set for the pacific map on pacific scale maps, shouldn't the warlord have a range of four hexes from its city instead of two?

Yes, I will make it 4 hexes not 2. This is similar to the setup restriction on the Communist Chinese changing from within 3 hexes of Sian/Lanchow to within 6 hexes.

I have written and tested code for the first 3 paragraphs.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 5:08:04 AM   
brian brian

 

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there is a distance restriction on setting up the ChiComms? I think that may be a ghost of WiF past?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 3
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 6:06:55 AM   
Zorachus99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

there is a distance restriction on setting up the ChiComms? I think that may be a ghost of WiF past?


That's a good question. The rules clearly read that the Nationalists and Communists do not co-operate.

summarized:

Control of a hex changes when:

IV: it is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa;


The city becomes a Primary supply source for the Communists and no longer supplies the Nationalists nearby, Per rule 2.4.2 Tracing supply

summarized:

A city controlled by the communist Chinese is not friendly to the nationalist Chinese (and vice versa), even though both are (nominally) on the same side

My expectation would be that the Nationalists and Communists should be able to change control of hexes as well, but the rules don't allow it. Luckily, a non-cooperating major power (China) may allow supply to be traced over it's hexes (which is a plus for the Chinese player).


< Message edited by Zorachus99 -- 9/15/2007 6:10:45 AM >


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Post #: 4
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 7:52:54 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

quote:

My question:

1) Because this rule was set for the pacific map on pacific scale maps, shouldn't the warlord have a range of four hexes from its city instead of two?

Yes, I will make it 4 hexes not 2. This is similar to the setup restriction on the Communist Chinese changing from within 3 hexes of Sian/Lanchow to within 6 hexes.

I have written and tested code for the first 3 paragraphs.

It should be more, as the number of hexes in MWiF has increased by more than a time 2.
We should look what distances it could cover on the WiF FE map (for example, it could go from Chengtu to Chungking, from Kunming to Kweiyang, from Kunming to Nanning, from Kunming to Hanoi, from Chungking to Kweiyang, and we should put a range that allows those distance.

Also, we once talked about adding a couple more.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 5
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 10:18:39 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

quote:

My question:

1) Because this rule was set for the pacific map on pacific scale maps, shouldn't the warlord have a range of four hexes from its city instead of two?

Yes, I will make it 4 hexes not 2. This is similar to the setup restriction on the Communist Chinese changing from within 3 hexes of Sian/Lanchow to within 6 hexes.

I have written and tested code for the first 3 paragraphs.

It should be more, as the number of hexes in MWiF has increased by more than a time 2.
We should look what distances it could cover on the WiF FE map (for example, it could go from Chengtu to Chungking, from Kunming to Kweiyang, from Kunming to Nanning, from Kunming to Hanoi, from Chungking to Kweiyang, and we should put a range that allows those distance.

Also, we once talked about adding a couple more.

The number of hexes in China increased by times 6 (I believe). Therefore the increase in the distance should be roughly times the square root of 6. 2 is closer than 3.

I am open to suggestions for additional Warlords. They are easy enough to add, but the decision should be made carefully.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 6
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 11:54:04 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

quote:

My question:
1) Because this rule was set for the pacific map on pacific scale maps, shouldn't the warlord have a range of four hexes from its city instead of two?

Yes, I will make it 4 hexes not 2. This is similar to the setup restriction on the Communist Chinese changing from within 3 hexes of Sian/Lanchow to within 6 hexes.

I have written and tested code for the first 3 paragraphs.

It should be more, as the number of hexes in MWiF has increased by more than a time 2.
We should look what distances it could cover on the WiF FE map (for example, it could go from Chengtu to Chungking, from Kunming to Kweiyang, from Kunming to Nanning, from Kunming to Hanoi, from Chungking to Kweiyang, and we should put a range that allows those distance.

Also, we once talked about adding a couple more.


Warlords could go from / to
Chengtu to Chungking, that are now 3 hexes apart.
Kunming to Kweiyang, that are now 5 hexes apart.
Kunming to Nanning, that are now 7 hexes apart.
Kunming to Hanoi, that are now 6 hexes apart.
Chungking to Kweiyang, that are now 4 hexes apart.
Chungking to Sian, that are now 7 hexes apart.
Peking to Tsinan, that are now 5 hexes apart.
Shanghai to Wuhan, that are now 6 hexes apart.

East-west distance (Lanchow / Chengtu / Kunming line to Shanghai Tsingtao line), China was 6 hexes large in WiF FE, it is now about 18 hexes in MWiF.
North-south distance (Peking Canton distance) in China was 9 hexes high in WiF FE, it is now 23 hexes high.

So I would conclude that the distance should be something around x2.5 or x3 for the Warlords distance to their city.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 7
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 12:16:05 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

quote:

My question:
1) Because this rule was set for the pacific map on pacific scale maps, shouldn't the warlord have a range of four hexes from its city instead of two?

Yes, I will make it 4 hexes not 2. This is similar to the setup restriction on the Communist Chinese changing from within 3 hexes of Sian/Lanchow to within 6 hexes.

I have written and tested code for the first 3 paragraphs.

It should be more, as the number of hexes in MWiF has increased by more than a time 2.
We should look what distances it could cover on the WiF FE map (for example, it could go from Chengtu to Chungking, from Kunming to Kweiyang, from Kunming to Nanning, from Kunming to Hanoi, from Chungking to Kweiyang, and we should put a range that allows those distance.

Also, we once talked about adding a couple more.


Warlords could go from / to
Chengtu to Chungking, that are now 3 hexes apart.
Kunming to Kweiyang, that are now 5 hexes apart.
Kunming to Nanning, that are now 7 hexes apart.
Kunming to Hanoi, that are now 6 hexes apart.
Chungking to Kweiyang, that are now 4 hexes apart.
Chungking to Sian, that are now 7 hexes apart.
Peking to Tsinan, that are now 5 hexes apart.
Shanghai to Wuhan, that are now 6 hexes apart.

East-west distance (Lanchow / Chengtu / Kunming line to Shanghai Tsingtao line), China was 6 hexes large in WiF FE, it is now about 18 hexes in MWiF.
North-south distance (Peking Canton distance) in China was 9 hexes high in WiF FE, it is now 23 hexes high.

So I would conclude that the distance should be something around x2.5 or x3 for the Warlords distance to their city.

So since it is 2 hex restriction in WIF FE, let's make it a 5 hex restriction in MWIF.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 8
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 6:46:30 PM   
Zorachus99


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The only thing I don't like about setting it to 5 hexes is that it's not consistent with all the other distance changes that have been made already.  All other restrictions have essentially been doubled or set to the European map scale.

Can I live with 5 hexes?  Sure, but I'm just more comfortable with 4.

Can you bug Harry for his input?   A wild guess is he was approximating a range in kilometers in a perfect world and decided two hexes worked as the best option.



_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 9
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 7:05:07 PM   
composer99


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The rule on how far Communists can be set up from Lan-Chow and Si-An [pardon me if I've mispelled these according to the spelling we are using in MWiF] is part of the scenario data and is found in the scenario booklet, in the set-up tables if nowhere else.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 9/15/2007 7:06:31 PM >


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Post #: 10
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 8:29:03 PM   
brian brian

 

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I think that is no longer the case, I've been looking through my ©2003 scenario rulebook and all it says is this:

"When setting up the Chinese, you set up the Nationalists first. The Communists are then set up. They may not be set up in a Nationalist occupied hex."

The various caveats for the scenarios always say the same thing "Communist China controls Lan Chow and Sian"

There is no mention of this in rule "20. Chinese communists" either.



I've been considering changing my stock Chinese set up to have the Nationalists cover Sian. Although the above set-up rule would not seem to prevent this the fact that Si-An is explicitly a Communist controlled hex would prevent it, and I think I will have to pull of a Mao-Chiang two-step on the first Allied impulse to accomplish this, if Umezu hasn't intervened in the equation yet.

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RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 8:42:16 PM   
composer99


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Have you looked at the set up charts at the back of the scenario booklet?

Edit: I just looked at the chart off the ADG site, and I don't see anything.

I will look at the scenario description for "Global War" unless someone is kind enough to post it here in between now and when I get home.

It may well be that there is no longer in WiF:FE a restriction in how far away the Communists are set up from Si-An and Lan-Chow. So many details to remember, so many to have to try not to...

< Message edited by composer99 -- 9/15/2007 8:49:32 PM >


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RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 10:43:34 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

The only thing I don't like about setting it to 5 hexes is that it's not consistent with all the other distance changes that have been made already.  All other restrictions have essentially been doubled or set to the European map scale.

What distance changes did we do that we used a doubling ?

MWiF China is 2.5-3 times the one of WiF FE in width and height, why should we only double the distance the Warlords must be from their home city ?
2.5 is a good compromise IMO.

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Post #: 13
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 10:44:23 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

It may well be that there is no longer in WiF:FE a restriction in how far away the Communists are set up from Si-An and Lan-Chow. So many details to remember, so many to have to try not to...

There is none.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 14
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/15/2007 11:47:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

It may well be that there is no longer in WiF:FE a restriction in how far away the Communists are set up from Si-An and Lan-Chow. So many details to remember, so many to have to try not to...

There is none.

Ok. I'll remove that check. I do still have Lanchow and Sian as Communist cities at start (as well as some of the new Chinese cities). Nationalist Chinese can not set up in Communist cities.

_____________________________

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Post #: 15
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/16/2007 11:10:03 AM   
Froonp


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The only restriction is that :
************************************
24.1.6 Setting up
When setting up the Chinese, you set up the Nationalists first. The Communists are then set up. They may not be set up in a Nationalist occupied hex.
************************************


< Message edited by Froonp -- 9/16/2007 11:11:55 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/16/2007 11:35:40 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The only restriction is that :
************************************
24.1.6 Setting up
When setting up the Chinese, you set up the Nationalists first. The Communists are then set up. They may not be set up in a Nationalist occupied hex.
************************************


Are you saying that the Nationalists are free to set up in Communist held cities?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 17
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/16/2007 11:59:59 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The only restriction is that :
************************************
24.1.6 Setting up
When setting up the Chinese, you set up the Nationalists first. The Communists are then set up. They may not be set up in a Nationalist occupied hex.
************************************


Are you saying that the Nationalists are free to set up in Communist held cities?

It is written that "you set up the Nationalists first", I'm not sure this means that the Nationalists are free to set up in Communist held cities.

If it was allowed, the city would then be turned to the Nationalists, which is not an advantage for the Chinese, as this means that there is now 1 less city to conquer for the Japanese to prevent more Communist reinforcements to enter the game.

But 24.1.6 also says
************************************
24.1.6 Setting up
(...)
If the set up gives you some latitude (e.g. “Europe” or “Burma”), you can set up the unit in any hex you or a co-operating major power controls in that place.
************************************
A Communist hex (only Communist cities can be Communist hexes in WiF) is not "any hex you or a co-operating major power controls", so I think that Nationalists are not allowed to setup in Communist cities, and vice versa.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 18
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/16/2007 12:13:12 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The only restriction is that :
************************************
24.1.6 Setting up
When setting up the Chinese, you set up the Nationalists first. The Communists are then set up. They may not be set up in a Nationalist occupied hex.
************************************


Are you saying that the Nationalists are free to set up in Communist held cities?

It is written that "you set up the Nationalists first", I'm not sure this means that the Nationalists are free to set up in Communist held cities.

If it was allowed, the city would then be turned to the Nationalists, which is not an advantage for the Chinese, as this means that there is now 1 less city to conquer for the Japanese to prevent more Communist reinforcements to enter the game.

But 24.1.6 also says
************************************
24.1.6 Setting up
(...)
If the set up gives you some latitude (e.g. “Europe” or “Burma”), you can set up the unit in any hex you or a co-operating major power controls in that place.
************************************
A Communist hex (only Communist cities can be Communist hexes in WiF) is not "any hex you or a co-operating major power controls", so I think that Nationalists are not allowed to setup in Communist cities, and vice versa.

Good. I'll leave that code as is then.

_____________________________

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Post #: 19
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/16/2007 3:34:16 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The rule on how far Communists can be set up from Lan-Chow and Si-An [pardon me if I've mispelled these according to the spelling we are using in MWiF] is part of the scenario data and is found in the scenario booklet, in the set-up tables if nowhere else.



Just for information:

Neither Lanchou nor Sian were controlled by Chinese Communists in WW2. They also didn't control any warlords.

Regards

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 20
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/16/2007 6:28:30 PM   
brian brian

 

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WiF has a long way to go in simulating that part of WWII. WarLords would indeed be rather hard to fit into their politics.


There would be nothing that prohibits the Communist units from setting up in a Nationalist city. Every hex in China not already taken by Japan is controlled by the Nationalists - except Lanchou and Sian. So the Nationalists can't set up in those two hexes but there wouldn't be any vice-versa on the Nationalist cities. You just can't stack the two sides together of course but there is no other restriction.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 21
RE: Chinese Warlords - 9/16/2007 7:18:05 PM   
Mziln


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China

quote:

20. Chinese communists

The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.

However, nationalist and communist Chinese units go into the same force pools. They are built by the nationalist player but he or she has no choice whether to produce nationalist or communist units. Apart from the above (and the placement of reinforcements ~ see 4.2), Communist and Nationalist Chinese count as one major power for all purposes (e.g. they can’t be conquered separately, declaring war on them is only one US entry effect, etc.).


(1) Controll of the city changes when a communist Chinese-controlled city is entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa
(2) A city controlled by the communist Chinese is not friendly to the nationalist Chinese (and vice versa), even though both are (nominally) on the same side.
(3) Chinese nationalist and communist units don’t co-operate.
(4) Chinese partisans only co-operate with Chinese communist units.
(5) Chinese communist units can only arrive as reinforcements in a city controlled by the communist Chinese. Similarly, Nationalist Chinese units can only arrive in a city controlled by the Nationalist Chinese. Chinese MIL may be removed from the force pool when the other faction controls their city.
(6) Both the Nationalist and Communist Chinese must agree before China can enter into a neutrality pact.
(7) China may not declare war.

Chang and Mao reached an agreement to throw out the Japanese first then resolve their differences. I would suggest that Communist and Nationalist China players do the same.

_____________________________


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Post #: 22
RE: Chinese Warlords - 10/15/2007 8:58:09 PM   
Largus_Means


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It was talked about else where, but I think that Warlords should be allowed to be setup within their provincial boundries, and that was talked about in the China Map forums. This is more historical and gives a little more leeway on the newly expanded maps. As per the WiF rules, they must stay within the provincial boundry or be destroyed.

Cheers

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 23
RE: Chinese Warlords - 10/15/2007 9:04:58 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Largus_Means

It was talked about else where, but I think that Warlords should be allowed to be setup within their provincial boundries, and that was talked about in the China Map forums. This is more historical and gives a little more leeway on the newly expanded maps. As per the WiF rules, they must stay within the provincial boundry or be destroyed.

Cheers

Problem is that MWiF don't know about province boundaries in China or elsewhere. Only the names of the provinces are on the map, but they are only decorum.

(in reply to Largus_Means)
Post #: 24
RE: Chinese Warlords - 10/15/2007 9:10:10 PM   
Largus_Means


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Largus_Means

It was talked about else where, but I think that Warlords should be allowed to be setup within their provincial boundries, and that was talked about in the China Map forums. This is more historical and gives a little more leeway on the newly expanded maps. As per the WiF rules, they must stay within the provincial boundry or be destroyed.

Cheers

Problem is that MWiF don't know about province boundaries in China or elsewhere. Only the names of the provinces are on the map, but they are only decorum.


Thats a shame, would have been a nice solution and given the provinces a greater feel of what was happening in China at the time.

Cheers

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 25
RE: Chinese Warlords - 10/15/2007 9:15:41 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Largus_Means

It was talked about else where, but I think that Warlords should be allowed to be setup within their provincial boundries, and that was talked about in the China Map forums. This is more historical and gives a little more leeway on the newly expanded maps. As per the WiF rules, they must stay within the provincial boundry or be destroyed.

Cheers

Warlords are restricted by distance from their home city - as per WIF FE.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Largus_Means)
Post #: 26
RE: Chinese Warlords - 10/15/2007 10:50:25 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Largus_Means
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Largus_Means

It was talked about else where, but I think that Warlords should be allowed to be setup within their provincial boundries, and that was talked about in the China Map forums. This is more historical and gives a little more leeway on the newly expanded maps. As per the WiF rules, they must stay within the provincial boundry or be destroyed.

Cheers

Problem is that MWiF don't know about province boundaries in China or elsewhere. Only the names of the provinces are on the map, but they are only decorum.


Thats a shame, would have been a nice solution and given the provinces a greater feel of what was happening in China at the time.

Cheers

Yes, but providing Provinces for China would demand to provide Provinces for a whole lot of countries. USSR, USA, Brazil, Yugoslavia, Argentina, Australia... would delay the game for years . Joking.

(in reply to Largus_Means)
Post #: 27
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