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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 1:38:45 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

(only one amphibious assault in the history of warfare was ever turned back at the water's edge, and it certainly wasn't in France)


....Dieppe is in France, no?

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 2:51:05 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

(only one amphibious assault in the history of warfare was ever turned back at the water's edge, and it certainly wasn't in France)


....Dieppe is in France, no?


I'd also ask how many were actually contested at the water's edge. The Japs gave up doing this fairly quickly, Anzio was opposed by two drunken Germans returning to the front from a party and before the first world war, it simply wasn't possible to cover extended coastlines given the problems of communication.

This may or may not be a valid statement, but I feel it draws the wrong conclusion.



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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 4:36:34 AM   
Yoozername

 

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Rommel was a well read author also.  Unlike Dorosh.

I think Rommel did have an understanding of what it would take to possibly stop a seaborne invasion.  A quick massive application of mobile forces within a day(s) was required.

I think history also needs to evaluate the troops, area, ammunition, and other problems Rommel faced defending France.  The amount of 'German' prisoners taken post-D-Day shows a lacking in troop quality.  Ost battalions and the like were a mistake.  Maybe best used arresting all the French prostitutes. In any case, the Germans had a large paper army IMO. Many elite divisions, but the Allies (USA, England and Canada) had real divisions.

The whole German Panzer Division/PanzerGrndr Division concept was bogus IMO for defending seaborne assaults.  What the Germans needed was  brigades with ammo dumps that could keep them fighting for 3 days dispersed everywhere. They should have evacuated many areas of the coast and had both armored and infantry type motorized units that could arrive at the threats and battle hard for a set time (basically a radius of action they could support in one nights march). Each 'bundle' would need to give its all till other over-nighters made it to the scene. keeping drunk French farmers away from the ammo/fuel dumps would have been a good SOP.

A seaborne invasion not only chooses where it likes best to invade, it also can ship in the best arty ever (battleships, cruisers, etc.) and usually air-power to bum-rush an area.  To defeat it means inflicting quick crippling casualties, and then a massive quick response to shut the door.  It means taking casualties in a short time also. The Germans could have put more technology towards fighting seapower. Something like a coast launched radio controlled torpedo to give some precision in KOing all those ships.

Don't blame Rommel because his hands were tied.  But he had a clue.  Only a runt REMF needs to take shots at a real soldier.

< Message edited by Yoozername -- 9/8/2007 7:38:34 AM >

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 5:24:21 AM   
morvwilson


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I think just about anyone on this blog could come up with a better way of using the available German resources in France in 1944. Only one problem, we did not have Adolf Hitler for a boss.

Gotta remember a few points, first: Hitler retained personal control of all armored divisions in france and would not release control of them until he was sure where the invasion was to take place.

Second: Even when it was obvious to all the educated officers in Hitler's staff where the invasion was, he would still not release the 15th army that was around the Dieppe/Callais area.

Third: The reserves, as ordered by Hitler, were located too far away from the front to be effective. Since the allies had control of the air, nothing could move during the day. The reserves could have traveled much faster if they could have used the rail system, but that was in a shambles after the pre-invvasion air raids.

In the end, I like Rommel as a general, but have difficulty in seeing his political side to qualify for the proposed list in this thread. Darius, Alexander, Ceasar, Marlbarough and Churchill all have political or diplomatic accomplishments you can point to.

Where are Rommel's political accomplishments?

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 5:29:14 AM   
morvwilson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

(only one amphibious assault in the history of warfare was ever turned back at the water's edge, and it certainly wasn't in France)


....Dieppe is in France, no?


I'd also ask how many were actually contested at the water's edge. The Japs gave up doing this fairly quickly, Anzio was opposed by two drunken Germans returning to the front from a party and before the first world war, it simply wasn't possible to cover extended coastlines given the problems of communication.

This may or may not be a valid statement, but I feel it draws the wrong conclusion.



I could be wrong here, but wasn't the first attempted landing on Guam by the Japanese in 1942 turned back by the USMC garrison? Again, I may be remembering the wrong island(might be wake) but I beleive they hid their 105's so effectively that they were able to bait in a Japanese destroyer close enough and sank it.

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Post #: 35
RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 6:29:30 AM   
Doggie


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quote:



I'm a Democrat, but Ronald Reagan earns kudos for his contributions in ending the Cold War and bringing down the Soviet Union.


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I've fallen and I can't get up!


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Post #: 36
RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 6:54:11 AM   
morvwilson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:



I'm a Democrat, but Ronald Reagan earns kudos for his contributions in ending the Cold War and bringing down the Soviet Union.


Gasp!!!! Can't breathe. Chest pain, arrghhhh. ***thud****

I've fallen and I can't get up!


lol

BRING OUT YOUR DEAD! (BANG)


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Post #: 37
RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/8/2007 4:13:09 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

(only one amphibious assault in the history of warfare was ever turned back at the water's edge, and it certainly wasn't in France)


....Dieppe is in France, no?


I'd also ask how many were actually contested at the water's edge. The Japs gave up doing this fairly quickly, Anzio was opposed by two drunken Germans returning to the front from a party and before the first world war, it simply wasn't possible to cover extended coastlines given the problems of communication.

This may or may not be a valid statement, but I feel it draws the wrong conclusion.



I could be wrong here, but wasn't the first attempted landing on Guam by the Japanese in 1942 turned back by the USMC garrison? Again, I may be remembering the wrong island(might be wake) but I beleive they hid their 105's so effectively that they were able to bait in a Japanese destroyer close enough and sank it.


And I believe that was Wake Island, the first attempt fairly soon after Pearl Harbour.

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/9/2007 8:48:16 PM   
105mm Howitzer


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OK People, Dieppe is in Belgium, ( although a stone throw away from France) And speaking of amphib. assaults turned back at the water's edge, wasn't Gallipoli ( in Turkey) the first assault of the 20th Century that failed? And in the ancient world, I think the very first recorded failed amphib assault occured between Greece and Crete. ( or somewhere else in the Aegean, someone correct me)

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Post #: 39
RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/10/2007 2:26:19 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 105mm Howitzer

OK People, Dieppe is in Belgium, ( although a stone throw away from France) And speaking of amphib. assaults turned back at the water's edge, wasn't Gallipoli ( in Turkey) the first assault of the 20th Century that failed? And in the ancient world, I think the very first recorded failed amphib assault occured between Greece and Crete. ( or somewhere else in the Aegean, someone correct me)

Ummm...last time I checked, Dieppe was in France.

The troops were ashore at Gallipoli for about 9 months so I don't think that qualifies as being "turned back at the water's edge".

Cheers, Neilster


Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 40
RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/10/2007 7:04:24 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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AFAIK Queen Vicky never commanded a thing, nor directed the foreign policy that resulted in anything much.  She was the titular CinC, but let's not go overboard otehrwise we'd better include god/allah (with or without an initial capital) since everyone always claimed to be doing his/her/its work!!

Tamerlane again here - head and shoulders above the rest of hte great monarch generals

there's a couple of lesser known romans who did quite well too that I know of - they weer never going to be top political leaders but militarily they weer superb..

Quintus Sertorius - set up a Roman administration in Spain in opposition to Pompey and defeated every army sent against him until assassinated by a subordinate who thought he could do as well (mistakenly of course...)
Publius Vendetius Bassus - defeated 3 Parthian armies, killing all of their commanders and a roman turncoat who accompanied them...then never heard of again


< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 9/10/2007 7:06:24 AM >

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/10/2007 7:28:51 AM   
ilovestrategy


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This was the mightiest, best and charismatic warrior and leader of all time! He knew not to take his men to Camelot, used the tactic of the Holy Hand Grenade and countered the question of the swallow at the Bridge of Death!

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/10/2007 3:42:44 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

AFAIK Queen Vicky never commanded a thing, nor directed the foreign policy that resulted in anything much.  She was the titular CinC, but let's not go overboard otehrwise we'd better include god/allah (with or without an initial capital) since everyone always claimed to be doing his/her/its work!!




was wondering how long it would take for you to comment on that little bone I tossed out. The reason I included her was the result of one of those tid bits of history included in the FYI coulmn in S&T magazine (a great source of of tid bits) which stated that more land was conquered/held in her name than any monarch in history...granted she had proxies to do the conquering and much had already been conquered before she took the throne..........

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Post #: 43
RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/10/2007 3:43:24 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy



This was the mightiest, best and charismatic warrior and leader of all time! He knew not to take his men to Camelot, used the tactic of the Holy Hand Grenade and countered the question of the swallow at the Bridge of Death!



African or European?

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/10/2007 8:16:49 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

AFAIK Queen Vicky never commanded a thing, nor directed the foreign policy that resulted in anything much.  She was the titular CinC, but let's not go overboard otehrwise we'd better include god/allah (with or without an initial capital) since everyone always claimed to be doing his/her/its work!!




was wondering how long it would take for you to comment on that little bone I tossed out. The reason I included her was the result of one of those tid bits of history included in the FYI coulmn in S&T magazine (a great source of of tid bits) which stated that more land was conquered/held in her name than any monarch in history...granted she had proxies to do the conquering and much had already been conquered before she took the throne..........



This leads us to an interesting question - how much "do it yourself" part is required in order to be considered a military leader? Does one have to accompany the troops to battle, or at least into the campaign region? Or is it enough to devise an overall plan (from the safety of the capital) and leave its execution to competent generals?

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/10/2007 10:48:30 PM   
Joram

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

My list...

Cyrus the Great
Alexander
Julius Caesar
Charlemagne
William of Normandy
Genghis Khan
Frederick the Great
George Washington
Napoleon


quote:

Cyrus the Great
Alexander
Julius Caesar
Charlemagne
William of Normandy
Genghis Khan
Frederick the Great
George Washington
Napoleon


I wouldn't put William the Conquerer in that list. He simply was at the right place at the right time. Pure luck really. What am I missing?

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/11/2007 3:37:36 AM   
sullafelix

 

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I'm pretty sure as far as land mass goes I would bet on Ogadai or Timur having more than Victoria.

As far as William the bastard it was just luck that had Hadrada paring down the Saxons before Senlac Hill. Also complete stupidity for once in his life for Harald to act the way he did outside of York. But then again Odin chooses when and at least he didn't die in bed. 

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/11/2007 4:44:07 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

I wouldn't put William the Conquerer in that list. He simply was at the right place at the right time. Pure luck really. What am I missing?


Actually I'd put his opponent Harold in there.

Believe it or not this "loser" had accomplished some spectactular feats as a general - in 1053-54 he led a cmapaign against the Welsh in which he consistantly surprised them by forced marches and innovative tactics (eg he made the huscarls leave behind their heavy armour and axes so they could be more effective in difficult terrain).

And in 1066 his efforts at marching up country to defeat the Normans and Tostig at Stamford Bridge, then march back down country to face william were outstanding.  He came within an ace of surprising William - Harold's army arrived at the battlefield on the 13th - the battle was fought only the next day so Williams scouts did him a singular service by spotting it - had he attempted to march off he would have been ambushed by hte Saxons and surely destroyed.

so for Harold 2 out of 3 wasn't good enough....

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/11/2007 6:03:22 AM   
Joram

 

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Yeah, I wasn't sure if I would put Harold as one of the best ever but I would certainly think he was more deserving than William.  But that's why we have these theoretical discussions because it's entertaining.  :)

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history? - 9/14/2007 2:15:39 PM   
Raverdave


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John Curtin......Australian Prime Minister WW2.  He stood up to Churchill 

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