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KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 10:12:59 AM   
fcam1387

 

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Is it worth using my fully intact KB to raid the Indian / Ceylon ports (depending on where the British ships are) in Feb / March 1942, like the Japanese did historically? Should I hope to sink any ships in port or is Allied airpower too strong and do the costs outweigh the benefits at this point? I want to utilise my fleet power while I have the chance.

Any thoughts would be welcome.
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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 10:27:31 AM   
String


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If you can catch the royal navy, then yes. One approach to use might be the hammer and anvil group. Light carriers, CVE's, Kaga and perhaps even Akagi or Junyo if its available cruising towards ceylon openly from the east, while the fast carriers are pre-positioned far west of ceylon. With submarine pickets in place you should be able to detect the moment when your opponent gets scared and sends the fleet towards Karachi, then you spring the trap and smack him with a 400 plane strike out of the blue

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 10:42:37 AM   
fcam1387

 

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Am I wrong in presuming this has worked for you with stellar results? ;)

Is a port strike out of the question?

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 10:59:29 AM   
wild_Willie2


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I tried it ONCE....

Made a surprise attack on the port of karachi with the entire KB, for the occasion I equiped the Kb with as many kates as I had available.

I caught over 200 ships by surprise in Karachi harbour.

RESULTS:

I lost 90 kates due to the massed fire of 200 ships in the harbour. for the grand total of 3 ships sunk and 10 other damaged.

MORALE: You don't NEED CAP over a harbour to protect against airborne attacks, you JUST need 200 AK's disbanded in that port......

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 8/7/2007 11:00:50 AM >


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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 1:00:00 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcam1387

Am I wrong in presuming this has worked for you with stellar results? ;)

Is a port strike out of the question?


Colombo is probably size 9 by now and has repairyards. You are unlikely to sink any ships, although quite a few can be put out of commission.

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 1:22:30 PM   
Mike Solli


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I never bothered with sending carriers to the Indian Ocean.  Two daitai each of Zeros and Nell/Bettys plus some recon at the Andaman Islands does the trick.  It bottles up the British fleet.  If they're foolish enough to challenge me, they're dead.  British surface ships can't beat this during the first 18 months of the war.  Later, when the 4E bomber menace rears its ugly head, move the planes back to someplace like Tavoy and continue.

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 2:51:33 PM   
m10bob


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IMHO Colombo would be a great place for the Japanese to capture.
Nothing in the way of reinforcements from Aden get by and if controlled by Japanese bombers and a cruiser squadron or 2, they could wreak havoc on supplies coming in..
Raid, no, capturing, yes..
Then, the Allies are forced to provide a stronger sea lane defense from California to Australia.
S.E. Asia and China would suffer(for the Allies)..

< Message edited by m10bob -- 8/7/2007 2:53:00 PM >


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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 4:59:12 PM   
ny59giants


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As an Allied player, I pull back all but my ASW ships and a few repair ships to India/Aden after I lose search coverage over the Straits of Malacca and between Java/Sumatra. No sense in keeping those slow old BB's there as potential targets.
Next, I can base some B-17's there and then I convert one of the PBY squadrons from PI to Coronado's for the extra search range. In CHS, this theater of operations get a lot of LAA and HAA that I can place in various bases to keep the Japanese player honest.
I feel that a raid does nothing, but I would encourage it.
 

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 5:28:26 PM   
Feinder


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Given the fact that you’re talking your CVs, the most critical units in the entire war, it’s import and to ask, “What is the point of the raid?”  I have found, for both Japan and Allies, that an excursion just “to go bomb something" usually isn't worth the price you pay.  If you know a pair of BBs and escorts have been parked somewhere for a while, and you don’t have any reason to believe they’ll move – then sending your CVs to visit will likely be worth the effort.  But just sending to KB to Columbo just to bomb the little anchor without actually knowing that there’s something of value there, can be a big waste (or worse).  A sortie to go bomb whatever you find that nets a couple of MSWs, even if you don’t even suffer a paint scratch, has cost you fuel, time, routine sys dmg and ops losses, reveals your position, and means you didn’t use your hammer where it was most useful.

If you’re going to launch an op into IO (maybe go to capture Tricom/Columbo or more massive), then committing KB to bomb the port and control IO makes sense.

But going in without a real target, just go to make a nuisance of your self, isn’t worth it in my opinion.  Granted even 2x BBs + escorts that are anchored at Tricom or wherever, -is- a valid reason (but you better sink them, or didn’t really do anything but put 2 R-class BBs in the mud).  Maybe a large regular convoy that dumps at Diamond Harbor, is worth it (I would think mini-KB for this, not full-KB).  But without knowing your target and about 65% certainty that it will be there, I wouldn’t commit KB (or Allied CVs for that matter).

It’s been my experience that there are very few joy-rides that actually produce any sort of results that make their sortie worth while.

Clear objective is critical, Japan or Allies, every time I send my CVs somewhere it means asking:
1.  What sort of time commitment am I looking at?  Plan the op in such a way so that you can “cruise” to (and hopefully) from your destination.  Zooming around at full speed means you “burn up” your CVs in about 4 weeks (or less).  Cruise cuts down DRAMATICALY on the mundane sys dmg.  While it does make your ops take longer (sometimes you don’t have that luxury), it does considerably extend the life of your CVs before refit.
2.  What sort of fuel cost for the op?  Do I have stocks along the way, at destination, and on the way back, esp if I have to make a sudden change in plans?  I also –always- keep an AO convoy in the wake, because getting stuck in the middle of nowhere moving 1/0 is –very- bad for so many reasons.
3.  The enemy will know where I am, and may be able to guess the mission and how long you’ll be on station.  How does that affect my other ops currently running?  Where am I going to be exposed, and for how long?
4.  Can I task my CV group with auxiliary task to/from their primary mission?  What is the danger that an auxiliary task will disrupt the main mission?  Would being revealed in support of a secondary op, ruin any (necessary) surprise of the primary mission?  Should the auxiliary task be main mission, or maybe not even considered as secondary task if it might detract from the main mission.
5.  What sort of losses are expected/acceptable?  If I take losses at target, am I then prepared for another engagement if the enemy reacts?  Is there at least a Port(3) close by, if things go south?  Is there friendly LBA around to supplement my punch, or available to run to?
6.  After the op over, where can I retire to, that is safe with ample supplies/fuel and puts me in a position for my next operation.

Your CVs are your most critical assets.  They are the first thing I check every time I get a turn, and the last thing I check (just to make sure) before I send.  Your wife might ask for spontaneity, but your CVs are a mistress.  You had better plan the rendezvous or you’re liable to get caught with your pants down.

-F-

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 5:39:53 PM   
cavalry

 

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Question

How can you find out whats there - Colombo I mean as allied player I think I would put my CV there its jan 43 . I tried using Glen to fly recon but they do not want to fly , I suppose its got to be Emily .

Seems to me a strike there could eliminate the British threat

How is the British air in Jan 43 - seems likea lot of Liberators and P38 around from what I can see .

M

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 5:42:16 PM   
kaleun

 

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Wise advice

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 5:47:41 PM   
cavalry

 

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When kates attack a harbour they use 800kg bombs ( these are stiill good ) or Torps . Is it 50/50 chance ???
At Darwin I sank two brit BB 10/42 just with 800kg bombs from Betty and Nell

M

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 6:00:11 PM   
Feinder


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quote:

Question

How can you find out whats there - Colombo I mean as allied player I think I would put my CV there its jan 43 . I tried using Glen to fly recon but they do not want to fly , I suppose its got to be Emily .

Seems to me a strike there could eliminate the British threat

How is the British air in Jan 43 - seems likea lot of Liberators and P38 around from what I can see .

M


Multple sqadrons as recon can be good. the weather in SEAC is notorious for "suck", so the rain might be grounding you or who knows what. You probably own Andaman and/or Rangoon. Send multiple squadrons of Bettys on recon from mulitple bases to maiximize your chances of launch, and creat and additive effect for teh detect level. If you start seeing CA/BB at Columbo, there's probably something worth bombing. Then again, a bunch of recon over a base is genarlly an indicator that an ill wind is blowing. If you're "reasonably certain" that you -will- find something, maybe deploy your CVs W of Columbo (unpspotted), run the recons for a turn to confirm the target, then launch. You can be in a position to cut off retreat towards Karach/Aden. But if recon jsut reveals escort sized vessels, maybe return without the strike - you'd have burned fuel and time, but at least you haven't tipped your hand. You (should) only get a surprise strike liek that once in a game, don't waste ti on a bunch of AKs.

-F-

I can say as an Allied player in stock, I'm pretty confortable with my LBA's abiliity to defend in 1943. I would think sending KB to bomb IO (in range of pretty much everything), it just an opportunity for me to punch holes in flight decks. If you're "really winning" (have sunk several Allied CVs, for no loss of your own), it's a chance to even things up a bit (as Allies). If Allies have CVs about, it's a chance to blunt your a bit, befor my own CVs went after you.

Frankly, if you want to bomb something interesting, you might consider a raid vs. resources in India/Oz without an "X" (surprise obviously necessary). That would likely be a "backfield" target, less protected by LBA and flak (which is going to get pretty wicked for you 1943). Or a patrol into a convoy lane could net some results. But there are some big AFs in India (esp by 1943), and frankly, if I saw KB coming, I'd throw every plane on the continent at you. Early '42, I'd probably still throw every plane on the continent at you, but the results would like be considerably less useful (for me).

-F-

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 6:40:16 PM   
cavalry

 

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Thanks for the reply
In fact its the LBA that worry me

No CV has been lost on either side so sinking 2 allied CV there would allow me to focus on the real defence .

The secret is finding out whats there , i own Andy and Rangoon . I think sending Nell there is not a good idea as he will certainly realise whats up .


I need to know whats there ...

without the allies moving LBA to Colombo
Without Naval units wort attacking leaving columbo

M


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RE: KB raid advice - 8/7/2007 11:59:10 PM   
crsutton


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If the American carriers are still out there then you cannot afford to lose a single kate or val. It is not the planes you will need but the pilots.


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RE: KB raid advice - 8/8/2007 1:06:28 AM   
RevRick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

If the American carriers are still out there then you cannot afford to lose a single kate or val. It is not the planes you will need but the pilots.


Aye, that's the rub about a venture into the Indian Ocean. What will the cost be six months later, or a year later if you loose a significant portion (anything above 25%) of the CV attack pilots running into AAA or CAP. In three months the USN will have five or six CVs with some (relatively) good aircraft coming on line. Which poses the greater risk, and which poses the greater danger? Losing valuable pilots to sink old BBs and small CVs is not going to help when the major battle comes, and it will sometime, between the USN CVs and the KB.

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/8/2007 2:38:02 AM   
bobogoboom


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I just had an opponent venture into the indian ocean for a raid with a 3cvl carrier taskforce in early 1942 and he hit colombo and i was still able to get 2 swordfish through and sink a cvl. i just don't see it worth the risk unless you are going for a specific target or it is part of a invasion of some type. but if you do decide to go make sure to go with everything. my opponent also just lost 3cv's and 1 cve 1ca and 1 bb cause he thought my carriers were in oz waters and didn't send the whole kb when he raided the johnson island/ palyma area.

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RE: KB raid advice - 8/8/2007 5:12:45 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

When kates attack a harbour they use 800kg bombs ( these are stiill good ) or Torps . Is it 50/50 chance ???
At Darwin I sank two brit BB 10/42 just with 800kg bombs from Betty and Nell

M


Its a variable based on your airgroups experience. In PacWar, 80+ experience groups always used them (if I recall correctly), and Im guessing this is about the same.

(in reply to cavalry)
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