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Where's the Historical scenario?

 
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Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 10:38:35 AM   
chris0827

 

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The Southern Steel Scenario isn't even close.
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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 11:04:20 AM   
Hard Sarge


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what is wrong with it, in your point of view



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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 5:16:01 PM   
Gil R.


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The Southern Steel scenario is based on 1860 census figures. I'm not sure how it can get more historical than that.

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 5:35:47 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Well, it depends on what the person feels to be real, I am not sure if it is the numbers or what the complaint is, once he replies, then we can see and either debate or show the reasons why



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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 7:01:43 PM   
chris0827

 

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The starting forces are nothing like what existed in Nov 1861. 95,000 Confederates in Northern Va? They didn't have that many in the whole state. The Union forces in the Washington - Baltimore area are too large as well. Where did you get these numbers?

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 7:23:36 PM   
Johnus

 

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I thought that Southern Steel was the "more historical setup" beginning November 1861 and and Coming Fury was the "more historical setup" beginning July 61. Yes ??

Have started playing again. Looks real good so far.

Thanks.

< Message edited by Johnnie -- 3/17/2007 7:24:31 PM >

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 7:42:16 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chris0827

The starting forces are nothing like what existed in Nov 1861. 95,000 Confederates in Northern Va? They didn't have that many in the whole state. The Union forces in the Washington - Baltimore area are too large as well. Where did you get these numbers?


True. As a quick reference check, from Battle Cry of Freedom, "In October, McCLellan had 120,000 men while Beauregard and Johnston had only 45,000 in and near Manassas."

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 7:54:37 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

I thought that Southern Steel was the "more historical setup" beginning November 1861 and and Coming Fury was the "more historical setup" beginning July 61. Yes ??

Have started playing again. Looks real good so far.

Thanks.



SS is the "Historical setting) CF is a updated verison of the early campaign, not a historical verison of it

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 7:56:10 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris0827

The starting forces are nothing like what existed in Nov 1861. 95,000 Confederates in Northern Va? They didn't have that many in the whole state. The Union forces in the Washington - Baltimore area are too large as well. Where did you get these numbers?


True. As a quick reference check, from Battle Cry of Freedom, "In October, McCLellan had 120,000 men while Beauregard and Johnston had only 45,000 in and near Manassas."




Question, the CSA had 45,000 men in and around Manassas, what about the rest of Virg ?



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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 8:00:45 PM   
Gil R.


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We definitely want any and all suggestions regarding "Southern Steel." The relative sizes of the populations/economies should be about right, but let us know if there are any mistakes.

Also, I'm curious if people think it's actually fun, especially when playing the North, which can now buy just about anything it wants.

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 8:35:51 PM   
frank7350

 

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well, i think the issue of "fun" is kinda of irrelevant...  I mean, we've been waiting months for a historical setup...and one was promised..and now, we're being asked if the game is fun?  thats a separate issue.  theres alot of fun games out there....some of them even dabble in the civil war.  doesn't mean that they're historically accurate though.

and census figures don't equal army size.  depending on a multitude of factors, they may or may not be an accurate forecaster of army size. 



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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 8:39:27 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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The census wasn't used to in any way interpolate army size, just population data. As far as army size, deployment, etc. Gil and Eric will have to respond to that as to my knowledge they were the designers for the Southern Steel scenario. I would emphasize however that constructive criticism will be of greatest help to them in making any changes during the public beta period. Those of you who have a specific gripe on any of the scenario design, please be sure to list it specifically rathern than griping in general and even better point to backup sources, such as the poster above did. The latter will likely result in no changes as we won't know what actually bothered you.

As a side note, have you checked out the updated Coming Fury scenario with the settings I posted in another thread? I find it to be quite historical in terms of the starting deployments and how things transpire during gameplay.

And one final note - Gil wasn't asking if it's "fun" instead of asking what mistakes might be there. He asked to have mistakes reported first, then followed up by noting that he was also curious if it was fun. This is a legitimate concern since the Union in particular has both manpower and economy in abundance in this scenario.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 3/17/2007 8:42:14 PM >


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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/17/2007 8:46:48 PM   
chris0827

 

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This is what Johnston had
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?root=%2Fmoa%2Fwaro%2Fwaro0005%2F&tif=00948.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fsgml%2Fmoa-idx%3Fnotisid%3DANU4519-0005&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50

This is what McClellan had
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fsgml%2Fmoa-idx%3Fnotisid%3DANU4519-0005&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fwaro%2Fwaro0005%2F&tif=01205.TIF&pagenum=12

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/19/2007 2:06:17 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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So "the coming fury is the historical scenario? Is that correct?

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/19/2007 3:36:33 AM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

So "the coming fury is the historical scenario? Is that correct?


No. That's just a revised/improved version of the July scenario. "Southern Steel" is our standard scenario, but using more historical parameters for strength and economies.

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/19/2007 3:59:57 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Well, all the scenarios are historical - but Southern Steel is the most historical as far as the population and economies.

I find Coming Fury to be very historical as a starting point. To bring it up close to the right economic/population level I generally turn on Greater Population, Richer Economy and turn off Population Modifers. You can also add +1 or +2 power to the Union if you want and are playing as the CSA. I posted a screenshot of my preferred settings in another thread.

I think the main complaint about Southern Steel in this thread dealt with the Army/Force numbers and deployments, which hopefully Gil and Eric will take a look at.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/19/2007 4:17:19 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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Okie Doe. THanks Gil and Erik.

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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/19/2007 6:50:18 AM   
christof139


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On Map 39 of the West Point Atlas the disposition and strengths of forces are given for about the time of 11MAR62. USA, 1) Under McClellan at DC were 155,000 troops, of which it seems 45,000 were garrison troops, although these garrison troops may indeed be seperate from the figure of 155,000, and if so, that would mean there were 200,00 troops concentrate in the DC area; 2) Banks in the northern Shenandoah Valley around Harper's Ferry with 23,000; 3) Fremont in the Allegheny Mountains of western Virginia with 4,500; 4) Wool the Mexican-American War Veteran with 12,000 at Fortress Monroe.  CSA, 1) J.E. Johnston with 43,00 at Centreville and Manassas Junction that shortly retired southerly to Culpepper Court House; 2) Holmes with 6,000 at Fredericksburg; 3) Magruder with 13,000 opposite Wool at Fortress Monroe on the Peninnsula; 4) Huger with 9,000 at Norfolk; 4) Jackson with 4,200 at Winchester in the northern Shenandoah Valley opposing Banks; 5) E. Johnson with 3,000 at McDowell in the Allegheny Mountains opposing Fremont; 5) other small forces in southwestern Virginia.

In mid-March, 1862, these figures give the CSA about 78,000 to 80,000 or so troops, and the USA about 240,000 troops in Virginia. Of the possible 240,000 USA troops, it may be that the figure of 45,000 garrison troops in DC is counted twice, and if so that would mean there were 195,000 troops in the DC and Virginian theater. Many sources have more accurate info., and the early Eastern Theater is not my interest, and the OR has all this and more, not to mention the hordes of books written about these early times and the good old inet.

This is pertaining to the July 1861 Scenario. The West Point Atlas gives the troop strengths and dispositions of the troops in Virginia on 15JUL61 on Map 18. It does not list the strengths of the CSA forces under Magruder and Huger, nor of USA forces under Butler that were all repsectively concentrated around Yorktown, Norfolk, and Fortress Monroe. Although the strengths of these subsidiary forces are listed in many other sources, they may amount to only 10,000 - 15,000 or so troops per side.

The forces and their strengths in northern Virginia were as follows: USA, 1) Patterson with about 18,000 in the northern Shenandoah Valley along Cedar or Qpequan Creek north of Winchester and south of Charlestown and Harper's Ferry; 2) McDowell with about 35,000 troops ready for the field at DC, discounting fresh troops arriving every day.  CSA, 1) J.E. Jounston with 12,000 at Winchester in the northern Shenandoah Valley; 2) Beauregard with 20,000 at Manassas Junction; 3) Holmes with 3,000 at Aquia Creek Landing. 4) Small garrisons at Moorefield and Franklin in the Allegheny Mountains to the west of the Shenandoah Valley, and off-map there were small forces in southwestern Virginia. 5) The Richmond garrison and freshly arriving troops, which were also small in number at this time.

Using these figures quickly derived from the West Point Atlas and common sense, it can be seen that the USA had perhaps about 83,000 - 85,000 or so, probably more counting the fresh troops in DC, and the CSA maybe about 55,000 - 60,000 or so troops in mid-July of 1861.

Have fun, Chris


< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/21/2007 7:09:06 AM >


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RE: Where's the Historical scenario? - 3/19/2007 9:56:06 AM   
christof139


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quote:

In mid-March, 1862, these figures give the CSA about 78,000 to 80,000 or so troops, and the USA about 240,000 troops in Virginia. Of the possible 240,000 USA troops, it may be that the figure of 45,000 garrison troops in DC is counted twice, and if so that would mean there were 195,000 troops in the DC and Virginian theater. Many sources have more accurate info., and the early Eastern Theater is not my interest, and the OR has all this and more, not to mention the hordes of books written about these early times and the good old inet. Chris


There were closer to 240,000 (about 222,000) USA troops in the DC etc. region in March, 1862 according to the OR. Also, this document shows approximate troop strength back to Dec., 1861 when it was about 198,00. So, 195,000 total and absent troops for the USA in Nov., 1861 is close, although there were only about 169,000 present for duty, the remainder being sick, AWOL and/or in the Brig etc.

By mid-March, 1862 there were about 240,000 total and absent troops in the DC region, which region includes all of eastern and central Maryland including Baltimore, some parts of northern-most Virginia and I think also Deleware.

Chris








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< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/20/2007 3:57:01 AM >


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'What is more amazing, is that amongst all those approaching enemies there is not one named Gisgo.' Hannibal Barcid (or Barca) to Gisgo, a Greek staff officer, Cannae.
That's the CSS North Carolina BB-55
Boris Badanov, looking for Natasha Goodenov

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