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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz?

 
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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/27/2007 2:55:34 AM   
civdiv

 

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Personally, I think East Front and West Front are basically PL and PB with some bells and whistles.

(in reply to a white rabbit)
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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/27/2007 4:35:58 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs
PanzerBlitz is probably one of the most eloquently designed games ever. In it's chess-like simplicity it allows for extremely competitive play. It also does one thing that every novice wargamer needs to learn. It teaches the doctrine of combined arms better than any game or book I've seen. Same for PanzerLeader.

As long as you use the "anti-panzerbush" opportunity fire rules to prevent the "I saw 100 tanks come down the road, round the corner, and hide themselves behind that grove of trees over there, Sir, and I couldn't fire a shot, because it wasn't our phase" syndrome.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 32
Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? Yes - 3/27/2007 6:12:12 AM   
Mobius


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Yes we still have a few vestiges. Even the best General article.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 33
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/27/2007 11:39:12 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs
PanzerBlitz is probably one of the most eloquently designed games ever. In it's chess-like simplicity it allows for extremely competitive play. It also does one thing that every novice wargamer needs to learn. It teaches the doctrine of combined arms better than any game or book I've seen. Same for PanzerLeader.

As long as you use the "anti-panzerbush" opportunity fire rules to prevent the "I saw 100 tanks come down the road, round the corner, and hide themselves behind that grove of trees over there, Sir, and I couldn't fire a shot, because it wasn't our phase" syndrome.


Well, you're thinking in real time and the game in played in phases/turns, so, in this situation you looked before you were supposed to also. Funny I played a 100 games of more of both and I never felt that way or that thought ever crossed my mind. But, then gain I play games as they were intended to be played. Strategically or tactically, I don't recall ever playing like HEY I'm Captain Tweety and I taw I taw a putty tat. lol I played them like chess games. You see your opponent do things it it as well and you have to deal with the same situation seeing before it's your turn to react. Too many people go overboard with this "realism" an "historical accuracy" thing, too over the top imho. It's just a game and they are made to be balanced and competitive not to recreate the war/battle tits for tats.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 34
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/27/2007 3:53:40 PM   
Barthheart


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Go here:

http://www.imaginative-strategist.layfigures.com/IMSTRAT%20PB%20Page.html

for some really cool PanzerBlitz stuff.

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Post #: 35
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/27/2007 6:27:12 PM   
jbunnelle


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Still have my old slipcase version of PB.  Thought about selling it but just couldn't, even though I haven't played since 1986 or so.

IMHO, I thought both East Front and West Front were nice equivalents.



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Post #: 36
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/27/2007 7:56:46 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: civdiv

Personally, I think East Front and West Front are basically PL and PB with some bells and whistles.


..me too..

..toaw however, mmm, dat's'a bunny that'l go the distance..


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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/29/2007 10:22:54 PM   
sysrkm


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Hi Stardog,

I remember them well. I bought a copy of each, wore them out playing them and bought another copy of each and then only played one of them once. They were great games as well as the third game in the series, Arab Israeli Wars, which was the best if you ask me.

If anyone wants to buy my copy of any of the aforementioned games email me at rob.mcclure@c-a-m.com. One of the concessions I made to the wife in order to have my own ham radio room was to clean out the closets full of war games. Everyone here along with my local gaming buddies get first dibs, then they go to the auction place.
I have lots of SL and ASL, as well as other AH games, punched and unpunched. Email me for a list.

I hate getting rid of them, but I'm doing a lot more ham radio nowadays than I am FTF board gaming.

Regards all,

Rob McClure, aka sysrkm aka KC5RET

(in reply to Stardog)
Post #: 38
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/30/2007 4:29:15 AM   
Brigz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs
PanzerBlitz is probably one of the most eloquently designed games ever. In it's chess-like simplicity it allows for extremely competitive play. It also does one thing that every novice wargamer needs to learn. It teaches the doctrine of combined arms better than any game or book I've seen. Same for PanzerLeader.

As long as you use the "anti-panzerbush" opportunity fire rules to prevent the "I saw 100 tanks come down the road, round the corner, and hide themselves behind that grove of trees over there, Sir, and I couldn't fire a shot, because it wasn't our phase" syndrome.

PASTERNAKSKI!!! Good to see you back on the old Matrix diatribe. Missed that razor sharp whit of yours.

I have to side with Ravenhood on the PanzerBlitz/PanzerBush argument. I've played these games with every possible variant to come along and I always go back to the basic PanzerBlitz sequence of play. As we have mentioned, PanzerBlitz is more like chess than a simulation. It's just plain fun and competitive. If I want a simulation I'll play something else, but if I want a fun, beer and pretzels game, basic PanzerBlitz is hard to beat. But then, I've also enjoyed playing with anti-panzerbush rules, but it ain't the same thing. I just like the simplicity of the game.

< Message edited by Dave Briggs -- 3/30/2007 5:14:50 AM >


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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/30/2007 4:34:09 AM   
freeboy

 

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Panzer Blitz, lots of fun.. especially with the ruler out to check line of sight and elevation... It was my first real serious wargame, played risk and some silly civil war game too. Most of the AH games above, lost my pnazer leaderstuff, loved third reich against another human,
Dday.. and others.
fyi wooden ships and iron men made it to pc
lol what a funny typo ships to Sh@@s sorry guys!

< Message edited by freeboy -- 3/30/2007 5:31:58 PM >

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 40
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/30/2007 6:19:51 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs
PASTERNAKSKI!!! Good to see you back on the old Matrix diatribe. Missed that razor sharp whit of yours.

I have to side with Ravenhood on the PanzerBlitz/PanzerBush argument. I've played these games with every possible variant to come along and I always go back to the basic PanzerBlitz sequence of play. As we have mentioned, PanzerBlitz is more like chess than a simulation. It's just plain fun and competitive. If I want a simulation I'll play something else, but if I want a fun, beer and pretzels game, basic PanzerBlitz is hard to beat. But then, I've also enjoyed playing with anti-panzerbush rules, but it ain't the same thing. I just like the simplicity of the game.

Just trying to keep my "whits" about me, Dave.

Well, it's hard to beat basic PanzerBlitz, to be sure, but Op Fire does a lot to help defenders, particularly in delaying positions. All it does is allow you to shoot at the dawgs you can see moving around out there before they bite you on the butt from the adjacent hex...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Brigz)
Post #: 41
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/31/2007 9:23:55 AM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

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Any one ever play "blind Panzerblitz"?

You need two players, two games, a screen of some sort to block the vision of the two players to eachothers boards, and a refferee. The reff checks line of sight for each player as they move and only tour opponents units in LOS appear on your board and vise versa. Adds a little flavor to the game.

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KED

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Post #: 42
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 3/31/2007 10:30:15 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay

Any one ever play "blind Panzerblitz"?

Sort of like "blind Tango," as danced by Pacino in "Scent of a Woman?" ("How much room have I got to work with, kid?")

I saw a moderator get threatened with physical harm one time in a game of this. "I can see the sonofab1tch from clear over here, @$$hole, whaddya mean I can't shell the $&#*er?" (yes, alcohol was a contributing factor to the dispute)

Seriously (who, me?), there were several attempts at double-blind board wargames in the early '80s (there was a company the name of which escapes me now that published three or four of them before going belly up - "Conflict Games," maybe?). This was an attempt to modify PB, and it was ridiculous. The beauty of this game system, as others more astute and less prone to sad attempts at humor than I have pointed out above, was its involvement of two people in a designed conflict laid out before them in simple, easy-to-handle components and mechanics.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Kevin E. Duguay)
Post #: 43
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/1/2007 5:45:36 AM   
old man of the sea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I am definitely a S. Craig Taylor and Steve Peak fan! I loved everything of theirs I ever bought...


Craig threw a coffee cup at me once in a meeting. That was cool!

E


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Post #: 44
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/3/2007 3:06:09 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sysrkm

Hi Stardog,

I remember them well. I bought a copy of each, wore them out playing them and bought another copy of each and then only played one of them once. They were great games as well as the third game in the series, Arab Israeli Wars, which was the best if you ask me.

If anyone wants to buy my copy of any of the aforementioned games email me at rob.mcclure@c-a-m.com. One of the concessions I made to the wife in order to have my own ham radio room was to clean out the closets full of war games. Everyone here along with my local gaming buddies get first dibs, then they go to the auction place.
I have lots of SL and ASL, as well as other AH games, punched and unpunched. Email me for a list.

I hate getting rid of them, but I'm doing a lot more ham radio nowadays than I am FTF board gaming.

Regards all,

Rob McClure, aka sysrkm aka KC5RET


..shame on you, it's only a woman for goodness-sake..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to sysrkm)
Post #: 45
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/20/2007 5:42:53 PM   
vadersson


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Hi guys,

Ah Panzer Blitz! I remember many rules arguments that took longer than the game. I also remember holding up a column of German armor with a Russian truck. Ah, those were the days. I still have PB and I am looking for PL.

If you want PB/PL on the computer check out the upcoming Release on the Matrix Campaign series redo. It was the old Talonsoft East Front, West Front and Rising Sun games redone for modern computers. My understanding is that East Front was designed originally to be Panzer Blitz for the computer. Then there was some sort of falling out and several (minor) things changed. (Overrun and CAT attack rules from PB are not the Close Assault rules for the Campaign series.) I think with options you can set it up as basically PB on the computer.

Anyone remember the joy of Starfleet Battles? I had at least 3 binders of rules for that game. Several hours for just a 1 on 1 ship battle. Yikes!

Ogre and GEV were great games too and very simple. I wish they would get computer treatment (besides the old Ogre for the Commodore 64.)

Thanks,
Duncan

(in reply to a white rabbit)
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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/20/2007 6:36:41 PM   
ravinhood


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Ahhh commodore 64, does anyone remember commodore 64 days? All those wonderful great games we used to play on it. Chips & Bits got a load of my money back in those days. Ahhhh who can forget "Sword of Fargoal"? ;)

Just think 25 years from now we'll be remembering these days Win95,98,XP playing on our new super duper triple core 10gig systesm with 2000gig video cards playing GGWAW XV lol Graphics will be great of course, the game will be the same ole same ole though lol HALFLIFE XXX and I do mean XXX lol as in triple X rated lol Can you imagine what Grand Theft Auto will be like then?? lol

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 4/20/2007 6:41:27 PM >

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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/20/2007 10:12:32 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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This series of games marked the beginning of my fall from grace with tactical wargaming. At this level, there was simply no accounting for the failure/inability of the enemy to react to my movement and fire in a timely fashion. Likewise, sitting back helplessly while my opponent moved or fired provoked in me the deepest of suspicion that there was something fundamentally unsound about tactical-level boardgames and miniatures, in terms of their alleged "realism," that is.

Other games would come out that sought to sort through the failings of Panzerblitz, the logical absurd conclusion of which was likely ASL, but none would ever deal effectively with the implications of introducing unlimited deliberation into an environment which was characterized by no such quality, none, not even a smidgen. And while I continued to play and enjoy the Avalon Hill, "classics-style games," like Afrika Korps and Anzio, I was never really bitten by the tactical bug, this in stark contrast to so many of my friends at "the club."

It was only with the introduction of the Close Combat series of computer games that I found myself willing to get involved in the whole dirty business of killing on this level. The game had simultaneous, real-time play, fog-of-war, and mechanics that were fabulously elegant in their apparent simplicity and obvious commitment to effective modeling of important aspects of battlefield combat.

But, while I was completely sold, many of my old buddies stuck with those nasty old cardboard counters and considered me a sort of graying-at-the-temples Quisling, a virtual sell-out to the world of "RTS-clickfest" style games. They were rather more open-minded about Steel Panthers and Combat Mission, but the "rules" underpinning these games always struck me as little more than computerized versions of Panzerblitz and ASL, or miniatures rules, for that matter.

The chasm's just as deep as ever, BTW. I'm just as devoted to board-wargaming, and just as ambivalent, indifferent perhaps, about those that are tactical in nature. I just can't buy the turns and pauses for planning. It's worth noting that remarkably fresh copies of Panzerblitz and its kin are located on a bookshelf behind me. There they shall likely remain untouched until some emboldened heir endeavors to hawk them off on Ebay at a hopefully distant date and hour.

Caveat emptor!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)





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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/20/2007 10:24:51 PM   
TheHellPatrol


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Of course i remember...they are what started it all those many years ago. I used to play with myself for weeks on end...ummm...err...you know what i mean.

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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/20/2007 10:38:34 PM   
lancerunolfsson

 

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I spent much time in the early through mid 70's solitaireing PB and occasionaly playing against live oponenents. Wargames were very uncool in the years right after Nam. But it really needed a OP fire rule otherwise "Panzer Bush" as units moved from cover to cover never getting shot. My PB Jones was fully satisfied by the Talonsoft Campaign series. When the Matrix edition East Front, West Front, Rising Sun, compilation comes out be sure to check it out. I have often described CS as PB on steroids.

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 50
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/20/2007 11:14:10 PM   
Brigz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lancerunolfsson

I spent much time in the early through mid 70's solitaireing PB and occasionaly playing against live oponenents. Wargames were very uncool in the years right after Nam.

I find this interesting. I was playing wargames face to face during the Viet Nam war era and a lot of the guys I played were super left wing anti-war types. But they sure loved their wargames. Go figure.

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Post #: 51
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/21/2007 1:09:27 AM   
pasternakski


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Here are the op fire rules friends of mine and I have used in PB (revised from the optional rules found in PL.


Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to lancerunolfsson)
Post #: 52
RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/21/2007 3:37:44 AM   
KG Erwin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs


quote:

ORIGINAL: lancerunolfsson

I spent much time in the early through mid 70's solitaireing PB and occasionaly playing against live oponenents. Wargames were very uncool in the years right after Nam.

I find this interesting. I was playing wargames face to face during the Viet Nam war era and a lot of the guys I played were super left wing anti-war types. But they sure loved their wargames. Go figure.


Dave, I am STILL an anti-war type, BUT, when necessary, I thoroughly believe in the American way of applying overwhelming firepower to save American lives. This means giving no mercy to the enemy -- the rule is simply this : you surrender and live or you resist and die.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 4/21/2007 3:51:10 AM >


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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/21/2007 4:06:47 AM   
parusski


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Oh do I remember Panzer Leader and Panzer Blitz. Those two games were my second and third wargames acquired-second and third to Squad Leader. I still have all three of those games. Just this past christmas I played all three games with my son when he came home from college.

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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/21/2007 4:10:53 AM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs


quote:

ORIGINAL: lancerunolfsson

I spent much time in the early through mid 70's solitaireing PB and occasionaly playing against live oponenents. Wargames were very uncool in the years right after Nam.

I find this interesting. I was playing wargames face to face during the Viet Nam war era and a lot of the guys I played were super left wing anti-war types. But they sure loved their wargames. Go figure.


Dave, I am STILL an anti-war type, BUT, when necessary, I thoroughly believe in the American way of applying overwhelming firepower to save American lives. This means giving no mercy to the enemy -- the rule is simply this : you surrender and live or you resist and die.


That's the only way to fight a war, American or otherwise. Apply as much force as you can muster in as short a time as possible...

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RE: Does anyone remember Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? - 4/22/2007 8:31:33 AM   
Ketza


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The summer of 1986 at MIT we played a huge game of squad leader/Cross of Iron that covered fighting along the Dnieper river where a Soviet parachute Brigade was cutoff trying to hold on to a bridgehead until relieved. We had enough counters to field a whole Soviet parachute brigade, a Panzer division, a Rumanian infantry brigade, a Soviet mech corp and a Soviet rifle division. In the end the Germans managed to eliminate the paratroops just as the bulk of the mech corp got across the river and there was a huge tank battle that the Germans won by the skin of thier teeth.

The 2 days we played that scenario was the most fun I had ever had at board wargames. A close second place was the 3 on 3 games of Drang Nach Osten or fire in the East we would play at different places along the East coast once a year.

My first game was D-Day from Avalon Hill. My second was PB.

Ahh those were the days.

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