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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai!

 
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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/21/2007 2:02:27 AM   
ctangus


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From: Boston, Mass.
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Here's a summary of the damage:

Japanese

CV Akagi - Bomb hits 1 - 29/8/4
CV Soryu - Bomb hits 1 - 23/6/14
CV Shokaku - Bomb hits 17 - 96/61/49 1 knot
CV Zuikaku - Bomb hits 13, Torpedo hits 1 - 64/49/49 5 knots
BB Kongo - Bomb hits 1 - 6/0/1
CA Aoba - Bomb hits 1 - 6/2/15
CA Kinugasa - Bomb hits 1 - 3/0/3

188 carrier planes lost - 89 Kates, 60 Vals, 39 Zeros.

Allied

CV Enterprise - Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 4, sunk
CV Lexington - Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 6, sunk
CV Hornet - Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Formidable - Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Indomitable - Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BB Prince of Wales - Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BC Repulse - Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Chicago - Torpedo hits 2
CA Canberra - Bomb hits 1
DD Lamson - Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

289 carrier planes lost - 126 SBDs, 83 fighters of mixed type, 80 torpedo-bombers of mixed type.

Right now I've probably traded 2 CVs for 2 CVs - bad in the long run. In the short term it should increase my odds - Formidable and Hornet are out of the war for a long time at least and could very well still sink. I have a ton of subs in the area & have a chance to chase cripples.

I'm debating whether to chase or not with my CVs. I have 4 operational CVs and 2 operational CVEs. The enemy has at least 2 operational CVs (Saratoga & Yorktown) and it's possible Indomitable can still carry out flight ops. I'm still a long way from port and one more hit on either Soryu or Akagi would like close the flight decks and maybe put them in danger of sinking. Hmmm... I'll have to think about it.

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Post #: 61
RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/21/2007 3:21:24 AM   
ctangus


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I think I'm going to sleep on this. (Plus I'm carrying out Operation Gilligan - a Mariana's invasion - in another game )

KB, including the damaged Akagi & Soryu, currently hold about 281 planes, half of which are operational. I have 36 Zeros at Tarawa I could fly in. The CVEs have about 50 planes - most of which are operational. About 225 operational planes in all.

My opponent has deck space for about 180, maybe 230 planes (if Indomitable is open). He lost 289 of roughly 500 planes today = at most 210 planes left, or maybe 105 operational (at a similar rate). But he may not have replenished his losses at Noumea and probably doesn't have that 3rd CV. So maybe 90 operational planes at most. Probably less since I think I damaged more planes of his than the other way around.

My last strike was still strong:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29
D3A2 Val x 44
B5N2 Kate x 31

Allied aircraft The FAA CAP has all but been wiped out
Sea Hurricane x 2
Fulmar x 2

His last strikes were pretty pathetic:

Day Air attack on TF at 87,108

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 2
Albacore x 11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 87,108

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 30

Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 9
TBD Devastator x 2

He could have Marines nearby ready to fly in but intel (air balance numbers) reports that it's highly unlikely.

It certainly would be in-line with Japanese doctrine to try to win a decisive victory from this. I'd welcome comments/suggestions in the meantime...

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Post #: 62
RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/21/2007 5:31:09 AM   
Local Yokel


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Results could have been a lot worse for Japan - I dare say you chewed your nails to the elbow as the turn ran

Preservation of the surviving carriers to form part of the perimeter's defence is a good reason to RTB.

On the other hand, you're not likely to have so favourable opportunity again to do great damage to his carrier force. You now have an edge at the point of contact. Next time you'll likely be facing TBF's, massed 40mm flak and possibly even F6F's, so in fact this may be your ONLY opportunity to do serious harm before KB becomes a paper tiger.

Perhaps your need (or otherwise) for a 'fleet in being' should be the paramount consideration. Are you confident you can still get worthwhile deterrent value out of KB as the odds against it lengthen? If so than you probably need to retreat conserve. If not then it's worth going for broke.

A hard call - one I don't envy you!


_____________________________




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Post #: 63
RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/21/2007 6:26:41 AM   
ctangus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

Results could have been a lot worse for Japan - I dare say you chewed your nails to the elbow as the turn ran


LOL - that's for d@mn sure. Well, actually I didn't chew my nails but I grabbed a beer from the fridge after my first two strikes didn't get a single bomber through.

quote:

Preservation of the surviving carriers to form part of the perimeter's defence is a good reason to RTB.


Yea, and that agrees with my general strategy in this game so far. My general plan isn't to conquer the map but to establish a defensible perimeter then counter-attack vigorously whenever the allies try to advance. At least until late '43.

quote:

On the other hand, you're not likely to have so favourable opportunity again to do great damage to his carrier force. You now have an edge at the point of contact. Next time you'll likely be facing TBF's, massed 40mm flak and possibly even F6F's, so in fact this may be your ONLY opportunity to do serious harm before KB becomes a paper tiger.


That's what's so tempting. But it's also risky...

quote:

Perhaps your need (or otherwise) for a 'fleet in being' should be the paramount consideration. Are you confident you can still get worthwhile deterrent value out of KB as the odds against it lengthen? If so than you probably need to retreat conserve. If not then it's worth going for broke.


Having played from the other side into '44, I know that an intact KB can be a deterrent until at least mid-late '43. After that it can still be a nuisance on the flanks, but isn't a deterrent to any major op. Boy, I'm still not sure what to do but thanks for the input.

(in reply to Local Yokel)
Post #: 64
RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 12:56:54 AM   
ctangus


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Apr 20, 1942

The balance sheet is improving...

Battle of the Ellice Islands, Day Three

Admiral Chuckamoto ordered his operational carriers to cautiously advance, to be in a position to pick off enemy cripples. Subs were ordered to likely enemy locations.

In the early morning hours before dawn RO-65 tangled with 2 separate enemy destroyer screens. She managed to put a torpedo into DD Anderson and 2 shells into DD Scout. In return the enemy got 3 depth charges close but damage is minimal. (4/0/0)

The dawn came and the Kido Butai found itself within range of multiple enemy TFs. Just 60 miles away were CVs Hornet and Formidable. Force Z and Indomitable were 180 miles away.

There was a minor scare in the morning when radio intercepts indicated multiple enemy Hudson patrol bombers in the air, but none of them could locate our ships.

Subsequently the First Air Fleet, supplemented by CVE-born air, launched multiple strikes which were all unopposed. Hornet & Formidable were under cloud cover all day and the Force Z/Indomitable TF received most of the strikes. In addition to multiple bomb hits Indomitable ate three more torpedoes, POW one and CA Dorsetshire two.

In other strikes DD Anderson was hit by a bomb and a troop-carrying AK was hit by three.

4 Hudsons did try to attack KB but were all shot down by a strong escort of 58 zeros.

In the evening hours RO-65 was busy again and put 2 torpedoes into DD Lamson which sunk. The sub is out of torps now so will return to base.

In the final naval battle of the day, RO-64 slipped by an escorting destroyer and hit CV Formidable with a torpedo. She's not too formidable anymore as she sank immediately.

4 Kates & 1 Val were lost to AA fire today. 16 Fulmars, 14 SBDs and 7 Albacores appear to have been lost along with the Formidable.

It wasn't all good news. While she was still afloat at the end of the day, Shokaku's fate seemed inevitable (99/81/18, 0 knots, flt damage up 20 points) and she was ordered scuttled. Zuikaku still looks doomed too (72/68/17 - float damage up 19 points). I might however be able to get her to Tarawa & unload her parent airgroups. 720 miles to go - 6 days.




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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 1:16:34 AM   
ctangus


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Here's the summary of the damage so far.

Japanese

CV Akagi - Bomb hits 1 - 20/0/1 - she's out of danger
CV Soryu - Bomb hits 1 - 30/10/7 - flt damage went up 4 points
CV Shokaku - Bomb hits 17 - scuttled The first Japanese ship DD or larger to be lost.
CV Zuikaku - Bomb hits 13, Torpedo hits 1 - 72/68/17
BB Kongo - Bomb hits 1 - 6/0/1
CA Aoba - Bomb hits 1 - 6/2/15
CA Kinugasa - Bomb hits 1 - 3/0/3
SS RO-65 - hits 3 - 4/0/0

194 planes lost - 94 Kates, 61 Vals, 39 Zeros.

Allied

CV Enterprise - Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 4, sunk
CV Lexington - Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 6, sunk
CV Formidable - Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 5, sunk
CV Hornet - Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Indomitable - Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
BB Prince of Wales - Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BC Repulse - Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1
CA Dorsetshire - Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CA Chicago - Torpedo hits 2
CA Canberra - Bomb hits 1
DD Lamson - Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, sunk
DD Anderson - Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Manoa - Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Scout - Shell hits 2, on fire

330 planes lost - 140 SBDs, 99 fighters of mixed type, 87 torpedo-bombers of mixed type, 4 Hudsons.

Here's a pretty picture:




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< Message edited by ctangus -- 8/22/2007 1:17:00 AM >

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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 3:29:01 AM   
ctangus


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Plans for today

My CVs are retiring. I have few operational planes left and I'm slightly concerned that Soryu's float damage increased.

Also, all my troops have now disembarked in the Ellice Islands so there's no further need to cover them. My transports are also retiring. Not all the supplies that were loaded have landed but I have enough supply for now. And since I brought along some construction battalions Funafuti should have a size 1 airfield in 3-4 days.

With both the already existing damage & my subs I think I have a good chance of finishing off both Hornet & Indomitable. They both could very well sink without further damage & I should have a sub contact with each and every movement phase. It's not hard to predict where they'll be as everyone seems to be retiring towards Suva (nearest allied port). Just in case they retire towards Pago-Pago (next nearest allied port) I'm keeping one Glen-carrying sub in that direction.

While there's many things I could have planned better, I'm glad I sent about a dozen subs out as pickets for this op...

Long-term

Right now it's 3-1 CVs in my favor. Almost certainly 3-2. Worst case is 3-3 (there's still a small chance Soryu could sink). Best case is 5-2 - Soryu lives and Hornet/Indomitable both sink.

Even in a worst case scenario I should still have a CV superiority for the rest of the year at least. It certainly makes an offensive against New Caledonia more feasible. I'll think about it for a few turns.

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Post #: 67
RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 4:27:45 AM   
Local Yokel


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Good for you!

Presumably Yorktown and Saratoga bugged out.

Fingers now crossed for Zuikaku. I'm not surprised by the rise in flotation damage: the d/c crews must have had their hands full with 49 fires. No doubt she'll suffer further flot. damage, but IRL she was a tough and lucky bird, in name as well as nature, so maybe her virtual equivalent will be equally favoured. Hope you have a brace of AR's waiting for her at Kwajalein or wherever.

_____________________________




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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 4:46:17 AM   
ctangus


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Thanks!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

Presumably Yorktown and Saratoga bugged out.


They seem to have. I think they're in 1 or 2 of the TFs right near Suva. I didn't have any positive ID on them, but they didn't attack me, either.

quote:

Fingers now crossed for Zuikaku. I'm not surprised by the rise in flotation damage: the d/c crews must have had their hands full with 49 fires. No doubt she'll suffer further flot. damage, but IRL she was a tough and lucky bird, in name as well as nature, so maybe her virtual equivalent will be equally favoured. Hope you have a brace of AR's waiting for her at Kwajalein or wherever.


Kwaj has a naval HQ and 3 ARs. The port is maxed out (size 5). I'm also landing 2 Special Base Forces and a construction regiment at Tarawa to provide some extra engineers to build up it's port (2 + 6%). They're planning for other locations but they were in the neighborhood.

I'll certainly try my best to save her, but I don't want to get my hopes up - I expect we'll be seeing this, soon:




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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 12:13:33 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus

Here's the summary of the damage so far.

Japanese

CV Akagi - Bomb hits 1 - 20/0/1 - she's out of danger
CV Soryu - Bomb hits 1 - 30/10/7 - flt damage went up 4 points
CV Shokaku - Bomb hits 17 - scuttled The first Japanese ship DD or larger to be lost.
CV Zuikaku - Bomb hits 13, Torpedo hits 1 - 72/68/17
BB Kongo - Bomb hits 1 - 6/0/1
CA Aoba - Bomb hits 1 - 6/2/15
CA Kinugasa - Bomb hits 1 - 3/0/3
SS RO-65 - hits 3 - 4/0/0

194 planes lost - 94 Kates, 61 Vals, 39 Zeros.

Allied

CV Enterprise - Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 4, sunk
CV Lexington - Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 6, sunk
CV Formidable - Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 5, sunk
CV Hornet - Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Indomitable - Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
BB Prince of Wales - Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BC Repulse - Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1
CA Dorsetshire - Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CA Chicago - Torpedo hits 2
CA Canberra - Bomb hits 1
DD Lamson - Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, sunk
DD Anderson - Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Manoa - Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Scout - Shell hits 2, on fire


Bah, don't worry about your CV losses - they'll respawn! No, wait... Wrong AAR...

Seriously, this battle will probably haunt you in 1944, when the Allied carriers come back as Essexes, but until then a lot can happen - and right now, you're better off than before.

BTW, the outcome of this battle has restored some of my faith in the game engine. I think the losses for both sides are quite realistic.

_____________________________


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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 3:18:51 PM   
ctangus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Bah, don't worry about your CV losses - they'll respawn! No, wait... Wrong AAR...

Seriously, this battle will probably haunt you in 1944, when the Allied carriers come back as Essexes, but until then a lot can happen - and right now, you're better off than before.

BTW, the outcome of this battle has restored some of my faith in the game engine. I think the losses for both sides are quite realistic.


I'm not sure about it haunting me in 1944 - the emperor is certainly proclaiming a victory! KB will be outnumbered & outclassed by then anyway. And I have sunk at least one non-respawning RN carrier - those Corsair III/IVs are nasty.

I also still have a completely intact surface fleet.

What it has done is buy me time. I'm close to the limits of my planned expansion. I should have plenty of time to dig in & build HI & supply reserves while the allied navies recuperate.

More later today but I had to run the turn before I went to work. Hornet sunk & Mitscher went down with her. Indomitable evaded my subs, though. Soryu's flt damage went down 4 points to 6. Zui's flt damage went up 10 points to 78.

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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/22/2007 3:51:57 PM   
Feinder


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I think you definately came out ahead, worth the exchange.  I think you're going to lose Shok and Zui, but from that combat report, it looks like it will cost the Allies 4 USN CVs and RN-Indy(45).  That's gonna hurt.  You might as well "expend" your flight decks when you have an advantage, and actually get something in exchange for them (IMO).

Keep your training programs up tho.  Because there -will- be another mega-battle. 

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/23/2007 12:10:01 AM   
ctangus


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Tks for the thoughts. I'm generally happy with the results too, particularly since I wasn't planning a CV battle there. Indomitable is almost surely a goner - 5 torps - 2 days from port - 3 more movement phases for my I-boats to have a chance at her. We'll see.

I'm only just starting a training program. My losses have been low & I've wanted combat aircraft at the front while I expanded. I even have 14 IJN pilots in the pool right now! Between the pool and the fragments from Sho & Zui I'll be able to immediately rebuild Kaga & Hiryu's airgroups with trained pilots. The Akagi and Soryu airgroups still have about 80% of their pilots and will have time to train up rookies while their carriers are in the body & fender shop.

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Post #: 73
RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/23/2007 12:26:03 AM   
ctangus


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April 21st, 1942

Battle of the Ellice Islands, Day 4

I already mentioned the major events. Hornet sunk! Here's a screenshot.




My 3 CVLs & the newly arrived Junyo will be at Kwaj by the time my returning fleet arrives. Kaga & Hiryo will convert to A6M3s and we'll move against the lower Solomons. Buin should be a size 4 airfield by then.

BTW, Hiyo arrives in about a month.

A few things have been happening elsewhere.

4th Fleet

Well, the CV engagement was certainly the biggest news, but also LB-30s have started to raid Canton Island from Palmyra. We'll deal with that soon.

Burma

We continue to trade daily airraids against Myitkina & Akyab, though they're pretty weak.

On the 19th, just outside Akyab I-164 intercepted the last ship carrying a British AA unit and sunk it. The unit count at Akyab didn't increase so I think I bagged it in full.

3 more cowardly Chinese divisions were sent scurrying back to China.

China

More Chinese interlopers were kicked out of Sinyang.

A Chinese relief expedition of 6 units is marching towards Yenan. I only have a tank regiment blocking the road, so I'm sure they'll get through. My assaulting troops are rested again but my d@mn quartermasters aren't sending them supply. My solution is to curse and to drop off as much supply as possible at the nearest port. I'm tempted to shock attack even without full supply at the last possible moment in an effort to bring the forts down several levels before more commies arrive.

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< Message edited by ctangus -- 8/23/2007 12:27:29 AM >

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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/23/2007 2:39:50 PM   
ctangus


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April 22nd, 1942

4th Fleet

I-173 finds and sinks the AK (with troops aboard) that was damaged a couple days ago. However Indomitable evaded the best efforts of my submarine commanders and was not attacked. She's 60 miles from Suva.

Soryu's completely out of danger (33/0/0). Zui's a goner (79/84/2 - +7 flood) but I still have a small chance to make Tarawa & unload her parent airgroups. 4 days away...

China

Cursing worked and my troops at Yenan drew supply just as advanced elements of the Chinese relief force reached my blocking position. A shock attack is ordered for tomorrow - hopefully we can bring the forts down a few levels.

(in reply to ctangus)
Post #: 75
RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/24/2007 12:47:46 AM   
ctangus


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April 23rd, 1942



4th Fleet

Radio intercepts indicate that the Royal Navy CV Indomitable sunk approximately 10 miles from the harbor of Suva. The emperor has ordered a bottle of sake for all sailors of the Combined Fleet!

The fires are out on Zuikaku and neither the sys of flt damage increased! 79/84/0. 3 days from Tarawa but still 9 days from Kwaj.

Burma

Another allied reinforcement convoy heading to Akyab was detected and attacked by land-based air. The Dutch CLAA Jacob van Somethingorother was sunk and an AK was damaged by one bomb

China

A shock attack at Yenan reduced the forts from 7 to 1! I'd normally rest my troops a bit (high disruption, short on supplies) but there's a window of 1 or 2 days to bag some prisoners before Chinese break the encirclement. Another shock attack is ordered tomorrow.

We plan on keeping Asia safe from communism, after all...




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< Message edited by ctangus -- 8/24/2007 12:51:47 AM >

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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 8/24/2007 2:31:28 PM   
ctangus


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April 24, 1942

4th Fleet

Zuikaku's flt damage jumped precipitously to 94 points and was dead in the water (0 knots speed). With regret she was ordered scuttled.

Burma

The Akyab reinforcement convoy was attacked again by both subs & LBA and another light AA regiment was identified from corpses floating in the water.

China

Yenan was liberated from the tyranny of 65,000 Chinese communists.

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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 9/6/2007 2:13:03 AM   
ctangus


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April 25 - April 30, 1942

Well, the Zero bonus is now officially over.

4th Fleet

Looks like the allies might be up to something here. What appears to be a bombardment task force is on its way to Funafuti. Another strong TF is headed east to either Pago Pago or beyond on the way to Pearl/West Coast.

Subs will try to intercept the TF headed east while my samurai at Funafuti are digging their foxholes deeper. A strong surface TF is on its way back to the area from Kwaj.



KB has reorganized at Kwaj with a bunch of ships accompanying Akagi and Soryu back to the Home Islands. The rest of the fleet is now on its way to Truk.

Burma

The usual bombings.

The allies also keep trying to sneak ships into Akyab & I keep sinking them. I think I destroyed another Light AA Regiment a few turns ago.

Other

I've decided I'm a boring Japanese player - I'm not going to try to take Hawaii, the West Coast or even North Aus! I'm spending most of my time planning my defenses and digging in, but I've been considering 4 final offensives:

1. Operation Eskimo-Go. (Aleutians). Cancelled.
2. Operation Lumba-Go. (Lower Solomons & Santa Cruz Islands). About to launch.
3. Operation Indi-Go. (Akyab). Has been given the green light but won't launch for 1-2 months.
4. Operation Embar-Go. (New Hebrides & New Caledonia.) Still in the planning stages & the IJA & IJN aren't yet in agreement on whether it should be undertaken or not.

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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 9/6/2007 2:51:27 AM   
ctangus


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Intel screen for the end of April:




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RE: The Ever Rising Sun - Chuck vs Pat - Banzai! - 9/27/2007 1:34:18 AM   
ctangus


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May 1 - May 8, 1942

Pretty quiet as I'm trying to wrap up offensive operations & the allies don't have the strength yet to start their own.

4th Fleet

I-boats sink a US destroyer and a US submarine tender.

Southeast Fleet

The invasion forces for the lower Solomons have loaded and are sailing from Truk. I don't expect that they will be contested but just in case large carrier & surface forces will be in support.

Burma

Allied bombers from Akyab raided Rangoon. Damage wasn't too bad - I lost 2:9 IIRC. But it's a sign of things to come.

Well, the IJN still has teeth. A cruiser division will bombard Akyab in two days.




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