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Quick supply question - 1/13/2007 11:14:48 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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I've seen this asked before over the last couple of months but didn't remember the answer, sorry.

If I surround a unit and destroy it, I seem to remember reading that a portion of its equipment would go into the enemy replacement pool.

If I surround it during one turn and destroy it the following turn, I seem to recall none of the equipment went into the enemy pool since it started the turn surrounded and out of supply.

Is this the case? I wanted to be sure because I'm about to start FITE and I want to give the Soviet player as little free replacements as possible, he already has enough.

regards,
IronDuke



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RE: Quick supply question - 1/14/2007 1:18:55 AM   
larryfulkerson


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I believe both of your statements about supply, equipment going back to the replacement pool, etc. to be correct.  Good luck on your contest.

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
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RE: Quick supply question - 1/14/2007 1:45:20 AM   
Nemo69


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Memory serves you right indeed. From the manual, section 13 (italics mine.):
quote:

Much of the equipment “lost” during combat is not actually destroyed.
Instead, it is considered damaged or temporarily unserviceable.
This damaged equipment goes to the Replacement Pool unless the owning unit is Out of Supply. In the case of Air and Naval equipment, the fraction of damaged equipment going to the Replacement Pool is proportional to the owning unit’s Proficiency.


Good luck with your game!

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/14/2007 11:24:37 AM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

I've seen this asked before over the last couple of months but didn't remember the answer, sorry.

If I surround a unit and destroy it, I seem to remember reading that a portion of its equipment would go into the enemy replacement pool.

If I surround it during one turn and destroy it the following turn, I seem to recall none of the equipment went into the enemy pool since it started the turn surrounded and out of supply.

Is this the case? I wanted to be sure because I'm about to start FITE and I want to give the Soviet player as little free replacements as possible, he already has enough.

regards,
IronDuke





Big mistake here. Esentia of FiTE is advance and advance. Not with red status units if you play right. And I've seen some SF proposals here like stoping on line Riga etc. nonsense advance on all fronts as Soviets cannot cover everything well and grab what you can in 32 turns before autumn mud.

Re: encircled units - some can be encirled and destryoyed later but not too many 1 in 50. Because if you encircle unit and wait one turn to destroy it you lose time and that is most important to not lose. Look at Soviet rail capacity - he is able to move that many divisions no matter if you encircle and wait one turn or not.

< Message edited by Monkeys Brain -- 1/14/2007 11:40:05 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Quick supply question - 1/15/2007 12:18:52 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

Re: encircled units - some can be encirled and destryoyed later but not too many 1 in 50. Because if you encircle unit and wait one turn to destroy it you lose time and that is most important to not lose. Look at Soviet rail capacity - he is able to move that many divisions no matter if you encircle and wait one turn or not.


I'd say anything that's encircled which isn't blocking your advance should be destroyed later- but four or five turns down the line, when it's already starved to death, not the next turn.

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Post #: 5
RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 3:23:14 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

Re: encircled units - some can be encirled and destryoyed later but not too many 1 in 50. Because if you encircle unit and wait one turn to destroy it you lose time and that is most important to not lose. Look at Soviet rail capacity - he is able to move that many divisions no matter if you encircle and wait one turn or not.


I'd say anything that's encircled which isn't blocking your advance should be destroyed later- but four or five turns down the line, when it's already starved to death, not the next turn.


I destroyed everything first up in our first game (we had to stop in the late thirties due to the disappearing Soviet Army bug - we've restarted with Doug's (gratefully received) re-write.

Anyway, I found progress a little slow and by the Mud I was stopped between Smolensk and Vyasma and along the Dniepr although I had several bridgeheaqds across particularly in the north where I had advanced towards Vorozhba and he held the line of the Sula to the south of this bulge. I thought a strike for Vyasma in the north was well obtainable, and Kharkov was possible with the Typhoon option as well since I had strong Armoured forces across the Dniepr at Dneiprotovsk.

What early destruction seemed to have done is feed countless new units as I had destroyed them before waiting until the following turn when they hit no supply. I had records of units destroyed and thought I had destroyed 217 Divisions together with another 60 odd Brigades/Regiments but the defences were deep everywhere I wanted to move.

The Army was in fair shape so I didn't fear the winter counterattack, but was worried I had been stopped well short of a good first year stop line. This time I want to go deeper. I've destroyed three Divisions and a handful of border units outright to create the gaps I've wanted to pour the Panzers through, but otherwise just enveloped Soviet units and pushed deep instead. I think I have around forty Soviet Divisions with no prospect of escape after the first move but it is a fine line waiting for them to starve as opposed to taking them out early and freeing up the infantry sealing the pocket.

One last question. I hit the airfields relentlessly. By the end of the turn before the clock ran out, I was looking at an air report saying I had lost around 100 and the enemy had lost approx 2700. The end of turn save says I have destroyed almost 5000 Soviet aircraft.

Which is correct, is FOW playing a part or some other process? Is 2700 or 5000 a good start? The last time the end of turn said closer to 1500 and by turn 32 I was having to concentrate the Luftwaffe to get results since the Soviet Air force were at all the crucuial points in their 100s. I clearly can't have done well, last time, to be on the end of such unhistoricity.

Looking back I made some big errors I plan to correct I'm a better player than that game suggests but my opponent played really well, defended well, and I made a big error in the Ukraine looking back and wasn't bold enough in the period immediately after the fall of Smolensk.

Regards,
IronDuke

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 3:30:57 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

Memory serves you right indeed. From the manual, section 13 (italics mine.):
quote:

Much of the equipment “lost” during combat is not actually destroyed.
Instead, it is considered damaged or temporarily unserviceable.
This damaged equipment goes to the Replacement Pool unless the owning unit is Out of Supply. In the case of Air and Naval equipment, the fraction of damaged equipment going to the Replacement Pool is proportional to the owning unit’s Proficiency.


Good luck with your game!


Thanks for the quote and the wishes. I'll need a little luck he was a doughty and resolute defender lat time. I'm going to have to raise my game, but I've made a pretty good start.

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 11:12:13 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

What early destruction seemed to have done is feed countless new units as I had destroyed them before waiting until the following turn when they hit no supply.


Mm. Note that if you wait to destroy them, you're also delaying their reconstitution. A division can't be trapped in a pocket and appearing on the railhead at the same too. Also, it's better if they're evaporated in a worse supply state, as they will come back in that same supply state.

quote:

I think I have around forty Soviet Divisions with no prospect of escape after the first move but it is a fine line waiting for them to starve as opposed to taking them out early and freeing up the infantry sealing the pocket.


So make sure you use the worst scraps of units you can find to seal the pocket, plus perhaps one good regiment to try for RBCs. Use common sense; obviously a fresh armoured division might try to break out, but if it's a collection of 3-4s and so forth you can just lightly screen it. In Fire in the East the Axis player has scads of small units which have enough infantry to hold against this sort of thing, and to this you can add broken down fragments of exhausted infantry.

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 12:29:36 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

Re: encircled units - some can be encirled and destryoyed later but not too many 1 in 50. Because if you encircle unit and wait one turn to destroy it you lose time and that is most important to not lose. Look at Soviet rail capacity - he is able to move that many divisions no matter if you encircle and wait one turn or not.


I'd say anything that's encircled which isn't blocking your advance should be destroyed later- but four or five turns down the line, when it's already starved to death, not the next turn.




I, of course disagree and Ben I think that you didn't played this scenario to know for sure. You just throw at us your smartness and I am talking from experience. To encircle his units you need lot of your units and they are also needed at the front. It is better to destroy his units and THEN to rest these units to get a green status units and then just rotate exhausted units with them. To not talk about communication and supply etc related with some units sitting behind.


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Post #: 9
RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 1:33:47 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

I, of course disagree and Ben I think that you didn't played this scenario to know for sure. You just throw at us your smartness and I am talking from experience. To encircle his units you need lot of your units and they are also needed at the front.


So you use fragments and crappy rear area stuff. Those flak regiments have enough infantry to hold, as do the numerous superfluous MP battalions and so on.

Moreover, in the opening stages of Fire in the East, the German player actually has more units than the Russian. Due to the scale, each turn those Russian units are cut off from supply they're losing masses of supply and readiness and ultimately masses of equipment. It is far, far more economical to starve them out.

FWIW I have played the scenario- though not the whole thing and only hotseat.

quote:

To not talk about communication and supply etc related with some units sitting behind.


Naturally anything blocking your route of advance or a rail line you need to repair needs to be shoved off it- though you may find it easier to retreat such units into the boondocks than to destroy them in place.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 1/16/2007 1:49:05 PM >


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Post #: 10
RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 3:57:24 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:



So you use fragments and crappy rear area stuff. Those flak regiments have enough infantry to hold, as do the numerous superfluous MP battalions and so on.

Moreover, in the opening stages of Fire in the East, the German player actually has more units than the Russian. Due to the scale, each turn those Russian units are cut off from supply they're losing masses of supply and readiness and ultimately masses of equipment. It is far, far more economical to starve them out.

FWIW I have played the scenario- though not the whole thing and only hotseat.




Ben,

It would work that way if your "crappy" units (Sec, MP, Jaeger etc...) are available and at the spot needed - if you don't encircle his units on 6 SIDE he have option if not routed to ESCAPE on one hex and block for example your 6 HQ's or 6 infantry regiments who WILL THEN PAY MP THAT ARE MUCH NEEDED FOR MOVING FORWARD. Been there done that.
That is bigger damage than to actually destroy the unit and not think about it and believe me as map is huge you would have lot of that situation when those half encircled units would make problems to you. If you enircle it with mech, armour and inf regiments and wait for SEC units to take over you lose a lot of time.

Maybe I am wrong but my game is very good without waiting to destroy soviet unsuplied units.

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 4:23:26 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

It would work that way if your "crappy" units (Sec, MP, Jaeger etc...) are available and at the spot needed - if you don't encircle his units on 6 SIDE he have option if not routed to ESCAPE on one hex and block for example your 6 HQ's or 6 infantry regiments who WILL THEN PAY MP THAT ARE MUCH NEEDED FOR MOVING FORWARD.


So block him on six sides. That's six battalions. Since such pockets typically contain a couple of divisions, it seems like a reasonable trade. If the contents of the pocket are smaller (but can't be RBCed) then you might even be able to break the independent battalions down to guard them.

quote:

If you enircle it with mech, armour and inf regiments and wait for SEC units to take over you lose a lot of time.


Well, if enemy units are in the path of your mechanised units, they need to be pushed away anyway, to where the infantry can hold them while the panzertruppen move on and the rear area units move up.

Obviously there's a trade-off involved in this approach, but I reckon it's one worth making. From what I've seen of the scenario, in the early going the German has more force than he needs to keep pushing. If you shove all the infantry and the chaff forward with the armour, you'll find them getting attrited (especially with regards supply) ahead of time. I'm more inclined to preserve this force whilst limiting what the Russians have.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 1/16/2007 4:38:23 PM >


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RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 5:07:57 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

Obviously there's a trade-off involved in this approach, but I reckon it's one worth making. From what I've seen of the scenario, in the early going the German has more force than he needs to keep pushing. If you shove all the infantry and the chaff forward with the armour, you'll find them getting attrited (especially with regards supply) ahead of time. I'm more inclined to preserve this force whilst limiting what the Russians have


I really respect what Larry is doing with his AAR and eventually he will beat Soviets :-)

Look at Soviet replacements and those cities that lower Soviet replacements... Your theory would be FINE if you manage to:

1) actually destroy all those unsuplied Soviet units

and

2) reach this line before mud season come in

Murmansk, try to take Leningrad !! which will unhinge his all northern front, and allow Fins to advance (!).
On the Moscow front try to take Moscow (tough) but at least got a VERY NEAR Moscow, take Bryansk, Orel (!important), Tula (IF POSSIBLE!!!), Kharkov (IS A MUST!!! because his reinf. get here and 10% of repl.). Odessa must be cleared ASAP. Sevastopol must be seized ASAP. Stop line for AGSOUTH - try to take Stalino, Voroshilovgrad and GATE TO CAUCAUS ROSTOV.
EDIT: Stop line for AGCENTER/SOUTH on Kursk way - take Kursk and TRY TO TAKE VORONEZH (IF POSSIBLE!)

So Ben don't talk SF stories because you don't know this scenario as much as I do.

You can destroy many Soviet division BUT IN A LONG RUN you need to advance AS FAR AS POSSIBLE into Soviet Union, if you can do both I will say bravo to you but anyway second objective is most important to reach a line that I have outlined. That is in fact more than historically Germans did. And voila you will then beat Soviets I think because later on attrition war will not be so high for you like if you didn't lowered Soviet repl. rate.

Don't forget that on turn 43! I think Soviet get's also gear in production! So speed is most esential.
Now print this my post with large fonts and put it on the wall if you want to play this game as Germans.


EDIT2: tactically what this strategy will bring you dear reader? Well, you will enormously lower Soviet repl. rate and bring it on a more par with you. As many Soviet units are on INTERNAL support your opponent will get nervous but any of his counterattack will just suit you. You will eventually tear him down as a beast and give yourself opportunity to finsih the beast later on. That is like boxing match if you stop Tyson will get on his feet and knock you down eventually.

Monkeys Brain expert on FiTE lol





< Message edited by Monkeys Brain -- 1/16/2007 5:27:05 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 6:06:10 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
I destroyed everything first up in our first game (we had to stop in the late thirties due to the disappearing Soviet Army bug - we've restarted with Doug's (gratefully received) re-write.


Did you save the file and send it to Ralph?

We keep hearing about this problem, but no one provides what we need to debug it.

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Post #: 14
RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 6:19:34 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

So Ben don't talk SF stories because you don't know this scenario as much as I do.


Perhaps- but I do know TOAW.

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 7:41:03 PM   
larryfulkerson


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Sure would be fun to watch the AAR of Golden D. and Monkey B. playing each other in FitE.  Just a thought.

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 7:47:02 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Sure would be fun to watch the AAR of Golden D. and Monkey B. playing each other in FitE. Just a thought.



Hahaha... But we monkeys only can play with our bananas

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Post #: 17
RE: Quick supply question - 1/16/2007 10:10:24 PM   
freeboy

 

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or joy stick?

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 12:28:21 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
I destroyed everything first up in our first game (we had to stop in the late thirties due to the disappearing Soviet Army bug - we've restarted with Doug's (gratefully received) re-write.


Did you save the file and send it to Ralph?

We keep hearing about this problem, but no one provides what we need to debug it.


I didn't. My opponent is a Mod over at Rugged Defence and he sorted out what happened and got hold of Doug.

I am fairly sure I will have completed PBEMs in the outbox I can retrieve and his PBEMs to me before hand so I can do this if it would help.

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 12:32:23 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Sure would be fun to watch the AAR of Golden D. and Monkey B. playing each other in FitE.  Just a thought.


Yeah - time for money where the mouth is you think?!!

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RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 2:47:13 AM   
ralphtricky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
I didn't. My opponent is a Mod over at Rugged Defence and he sorted out what happened and got hold of Doug.

I am fairly sure I will have completed PBEMs in the outbox I can retrieve and his PBEMs to me before hand so I can do this if it would help.

Can I get a copy of the PBL FIles on the turn that it blew up, and maybe thurn before?

I'm pretty sure I fixed it, but it wouldn't hurt...

Thanks,
Ralph

ralphtrickey (at) hormail (dot) com


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My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

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Post #: 21
RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 3:08:51 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
I didn't. My opponent is a Mod over at Rugged Defence and he sorted out what happened and got hold of Doug.

I am fairly sure I will have completed PBEMs in the outbox I can retrieve and his PBEMs to me before hand so I can do this if it would help.

Can I get a copy of the PBL FIles on the turn that it blew up, and maybe thurn before?

I'm pretty sure I fixed it, but it wouldn't hurt...

Thanks,
Ralph

ralphtrickey (at) hormail (dot) com



I can get you my AXIS out, and his subsequent Soviet in. When I next opened it, the road to Moscow was open! The more I think about it, the less appealing the idea of a fix is...

Anyway, it is Dan's game, and I just noticed you fixed it in the other linked forum (although I haven't heard from him today about what he received.

I can happily forward the files if the above facts don't change the situation for you?

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Post #: 22
RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 11:24:12 AM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

It would work that way if your "crappy" units (Sec, MP, Jaeger etc...) are available and at the spot needed - if you don't encircle his units on 6 SIDE he have option if not routed to ESCAPE on one hex and block for example your 6 HQ's or 6 infantry regiments who WILL THEN PAY MP THAT ARE MUCH NEEDED FOR MOVING FORWARD.


So block him on six sides. That's six battalions. Since such pockets typically contain a couple of divisions, it seems like a reasonable trade. If the contents of the pocket are smaller (but can't be RBCed) then you might even be able to break the independent battalions down to guard them.

quote:

If you enircle it with mech, armour and inf regiments and wait for SEC units to take over you lose a lot of time.


Well, if enemy units are in the path of your mechanised units, they need to be pushed away anyway, to where the infantry can hold them while the panzertruppen move on and the rear area units move up.

Obviously there's a trade-off involved in this approach, but I reckon it's one worth making. From what I've seen of the scenario, in the early going the German has more force than he needs to keep pushing. If you shove all the infantry and the chaff forward with the armour, you'll find them getting attrited (especially with regards supply) ahead of time. I'm more inclined to preserve this force whilst limiting what the Russians have.


..
quote:

So block him on six sides. That's six battalions
..

..are you advising unit break-down here ?..if so, shame on you..

..however, i am getting the impression that t3 also takes into account enemy-controlled hexes when calculating supply, so maybe a full suround isn't needed any more..


< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 1/17/2007 11:39:00 AM >


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Post #: 23
RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 11:42:17 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..are you advising unit break-down here ?..if so, shame on you..


Why?

quote:

..however, i am getting the impression that t3 also takes into account enemy-controlled hexes when calculating supply,


I'm fairly sure you're wrong.

quote:

so maybe a full suround isn't needed any more..


For purposes of supply, you would only need two units, on opposite sides of the enemy unit. They would each block supply through two of the remaining four hexes. However the enemy unit would then be able to move, and that can only be allowed under certain circumstances. One could certainly give the enemy the freedom to move in some direction you find congenial- against the coast or a super river to reduce the number of surrounding units you need, toward some marshland, or into another pocket.

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Post #: 24
RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 11:43:38 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

Hahaha... But we monkeys only can play with our bananas


Pretty pleased this was your response. I really don't have the time to take up a PBM game of Fire in the East right now.

_____________________________

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"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 25
RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 12:14:00 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

Hahaha... But we monkeys only can play with our bananas


Pretty pleased this was your response. I really don't have the time to take up a PBM game of Fire in the East right now.


Me neither :)

That was Larry's idea, and ok I have anything against it, just FiTE is really mostrous scenario and I don't play any TOAW game in a haste - I think about every move when I play TOAW. I know that there are people who played TOAW like 15-20 games at the same time. I cannot do that. I play TOAW to relax and to think and to read books while I play. I am not playing that like checkers or backgammon.

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Post #: 26
RE: Quick supply question - 1/17/2007 12:42:47 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..are you advising unit break-down here ?..if so, shame on you..


Why?

quote:

..however, i am getting the impression that t3 also takes into account enemy-controlled hexes when calculating supply,


I'm fairly sure you're wrong.

quote:

so maybe a full suround isn't needed any more..


For purposes of supply, you would only need two units, on opposite sides of the enemy unit. They would each block supply through two of the remaining four hexes. However the enemy unit would then be able to move, and that can only be allowed under certain circumstances. One could certainly give the enemy the freedom to move in some direction you find congenial- against the coast or a super river to reduce the number of surrounding units you need, toward some marshland, or into another pocket.


..maybe, it's the US civil war 2008 scen, and units that don't have a clear supply route under (unknown as yet) conditions, but not surrounded, lose the "disband" button, a sign of being out of supply..

..and that without having super-river or other uncrossable hex-sides in the calculation..

..thinking on't, in this scen, over 4 enemy controlled hexes

..i did say "impression"...


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 27
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Quick supply question Page: [1]
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