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Camps? Where are they? - 12/1/2006 8:40:42 PM   
Temple

 

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OK, another weird problem. I just started the standard campaign in the intermediate rules and I can't find out where to select to build camps. And I don't see any camps. I'm perplexed. I played through a Basic game and just assumed that camps don't show up there, but now I'm thinking either they are missing or I'm befuddled.

Here's what I see when I select the build screen for New York City.






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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/1/2006 9:10:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


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you need to be in the advance building set up I believe, from the set up screen, I think you are still under the level needed to see camps, your still missing a number of buildings you can build on that list

< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 12/1/2006 9:14:57 PM >


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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/2/2006 12:49:59 AM   
Temple

 

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OK, I started an advanced game and yup the option is present. There should be an asterisk next to the mention of Camps on page 80 noting that they only show up in the advanced game. 

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/2/2006 12:51:43 AM   
Hard Sarge


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it been a while since I was in the rules, but I thought it was set up that way

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 7:36:27 AM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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In the manual, camps are clearly described in the basic game rules as though they're present in the basic game. Other, more advanced buildings aren't described there at all.

This seems to be an error either in the manual, or in the game. It would seem quite reasonable to me to have camps in the basic game. Perhaps it's an error in the game. If so, will it be fixed in a patch?

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 7:52:37 AM   
Shoot Me_I Explode


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On page 90 of the manual it says camps do not count toward the number of buildings supported by a mansion yet in game they do.  If you dont have the mansion to support the camp then you can not build the camp.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 8:37:35 AM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shoot Me_I Explode

On page 90 of the manual it says camps do not count toward the number of buildings supported by a mansion yet in game they do. If you dont have the mansion to support the camp then you can not build the camp.


Um, this is not the issue. The issue is that we can't build camps in the basic game at all. They're not just greyed out; they're not even on the list.

Without camps, I suppose casualties are never replaced, veteran units gradually diminish to zero, and the only way to get new troops is to build new units. This seems unsatisfactory even in a basic game.

< Message edited by Jonathan Palfrey -- 12/7/2006 10:17:37 AM >

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 4:24:41 PM   
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Yes, there is a problem that camps are mentioned as though they are available in the Basic Rules when they are in fact not available.  On the developer forum we've had a lengthy discussion in regard to the best way of addressing this.  Currently our favorite solution is to keep camps advanced and to give each side a fixed reinforcement rate every turn (so many 1000's for US and a different number for the CS...)  Please let us know what you'd think of this solution...


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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 4:29:53 PM   
jonreb31


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shoot Me_I Explode

On page 90 of the manual it says camps do not count toward the number of buildings supported by a mansion yet in game they do. If you dont have the mansion to support the camp then you can not build the camp.


Um, this is not the issue. The issue is that we can't build camps in the basic game at all. They're not just greyed out; they're not even on the list.

Without camps, I suppose casualties are never replaced, veteran units gradually diminish to zero, and the only way to get new troops is to build new units. This seems unsatisfactory even in a basic game.


I'd like to add that replacements will not magically become Veterans in a veteran unit. They will lower the overall quality of the unit a little, but increase their numbers. Quality of reinforcements depends on National Will.

If you really want camps that bad play on a higher setting. Basic is basic.


< Message edited by JonReb -- 12/7/2006 4:42:11 PM >


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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 4:53:56 PM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonReb

If you really want camps that bad play on a higher setting. Basic is basic.



According to the manual, camps are basic.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 5:08:45 PM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Yes, there is a problem that camps are mentioned as though they are available in the Basic Rules when they are in fact not available. On the developer forum we've had a lengthy discussion in regard to the best way of addressing this. Currently our favorite solution is to keep camps advanced and to give each side a fixed reinforcement rate every turn (so many 1000's for US and a different number for the CS...) Please let us know what you'd think of this solution...



Thanks for the reply. Yes, if you don't want camps in the basic game for some reason, your alternative seems OK. No objection from me.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 5:27:33 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Yes, there is a problem that camps are mentioned as though they are available in the Basic Rules when they are in fact not available.  On the developer forum we've had a lengthy discussion in regard to the best way of addressing this.  Currently our favorite solution is to keep camps advanced and to give each side a fixed reinforcement rate every turn (so many 1000's for US and a different number for the CS...)  Please let us know what you'd think of this solution...



FWIW that makes sense to me too. Keep the Basic Rules basic.

< Message edited by elmo3 -- 12/7/2006 5:36:16 PM >

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 10:15:07 PM   
Alex Gilbert

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shoot Me_I Explode

On page 90 of the manual it says camps do not count toward the number of buildings supported by a mansion yet in game they do.  If you dont have the mansion to support the camp then you can not build the camp.


This confused me as well. As it currently stands, camps do NOT count against the support limits, however, you still need at least 1 free spot to build them. That is, if you have a mansion, you need to have 3 or less buildings to buy a camp there, but after the camp is built, you will still have the extra support spot available. Not sure if this was the way it was intended, but either way, it has not been a big deal in my games since there is always SOME city with extra space.

Alex

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/7/2006 10:17:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


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not sure if that was the plan, but from what I have seen, you have to have space open, to build a camp, but you do not use that space if you do build it

and yes, it can be confusing until you get used to it, but once you are, you do not even think about it




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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/8/2006 12:43:00 AM   
ericbabe


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I will change the game so that camps can be built even when the city is at its support level.

I would like to keep the Basic rules free of camps.  I'm trying to keep Basic as simple as possible.  We'll add the camp section to a rules errata and add the constant reinforcement rules.  Any suggestions for the size of the constant reinforcements?


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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/8/2006 1:12:46 AM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I would like to keep the Basic rules free of camps. I'm trying to keep Basic as simple as possible. We'll add the camp section to a rules errata and add the constant reinforcement rules. Any suggestions for the size of the constant reinforcements?



I copied a file off the Web sometime from the U.S. Civil War Center estimating statistics for America's major wars. It reckons that the USA recruited a total of 2803300 soldiers and the CSA 1064200 -- though that apparently counts people more than once if they were recruited more than once.

You could divide these figures by the number of turns in the game, roughly speaking; but then there'd be no men left over for completely new units. I don't know how you want to play that. You could end up with the USA having more replacements than it could use if you're not careful.

I seem to remember reading that the USA tended to recruit men into new units (leaving existing units undermanned) while the CSA tended more sensibly to recruit them into existing units if possible. But don't rely on me for this, my memory may be garbled.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/8/2006 10:33:31 AM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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Here's some more information from McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom, Chapter 10, Part IV:

"The normal complement of a regiment in both the Union and Confederate armies was a thousand men formed in ten companies ... [However,] Within a year of its organization a typical regiment was reduced to half or less of its original number by sickness, battle casualties, and desertions. Instead of recruiting old regiments up to strength, states preferred to organize new ones with new opportunities for patronage in the form of officers' commissions and pride in the number of regiments sent by the state. Of 421,000 new three-year volunteers entering the Union army in 1862, only 50,000 joined existing regiments. Professional soldiers criticized this practice as inefficient and wasteful. It kept regiments far below strength and prevented the leavening of raw recruits by seasoned veterans. In 1862 and 1863, many old regiments went into combat with only two or three hundred men while new regiments suffered unnecessary casualties because of inexperience."

The emphasis is mine.

McPherson seems to be talking mainly about the US Army here, but he doesn't actually compare the US and CS Armies in this respect. I still think I've read elsewhere that the problem of understrength regiments was worse in the US than in the CS Army.

< Message edited by Jonathan Palfrey -- 12/8/2006 11:15:38 AM >

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/8/2006 11:06:20 AM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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More information from the Web:

"The War Department in 1861 considered making recruiting a Federal responsibility, but this proposal seemed to be an unnecessary expense for the short war initially envisioned. Therefore, responsibility for recruiting remained with the states, and on both sides, state governors continually encouraged local constituents to form new volunteer regiments. This practice served to strengthen support for local, state, and national politicians and provide an opportunity for glory and high rank for ambitious men. Although such local recruiting created regiments with strong bonds among the men, it also hindered filling the ranks of existing regiments with new replacements. As the war progressed, the Confederates attempted to funnel replacements into units from their same state or region, but the Federals continued to create new regiments. Existing Federal regiments detailed men back home to recruit replacements, but these efforts could never successfully compete for men joining new local regiments. Thus, the newly formed regiments had no seasoned veterans to train the recruits, and the battle-tested regiments lost men faster than they could recruit replacements. Many regiments on both sides were reduced to combat ineffectiveness as the war progressed. Seasoned regiments were often disbanded or consolidated, usually against the wishes of the men assigned."

The emphasis is mine.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/8/2006 5:21:39 PM   
jimwinsor


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Yeah this was my impression as well...both sides had trouble getting volunteers to join existing regiments, but the CSA was a bit better at it than the Union.

In game terms I suppose, we could say the CSA "built more camps" than the USA.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/20/2006 6:36:37 AM   
satchel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey
Without camps, I suppose casualties are never replaced, veteran units gradually diminish to zero, and the only way to get new troops is to build new units. This seems unsatisfactory even in a basic game.


This is unsatisfactory and unrealistic. Without reinforcements, the "Basic" game drags, especially the endgame.

The Basic game needs some reinforcement mechanism.



< Message edited by satchel -- 12/20/2006 7:23:07 AM >

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/20/2006 7:14:20 AM   
jimwinsor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: satchel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey
Without camps, I suppose casualties are never replaced, veteran units gradually diminish to zero, and the only way to get new troops is to build new units. This seems unsatisfactory even in a basic game.


This is unsatisfactory. The lack of being able to reinforce units affects gameplay greatly. What is supposed to be the "Basic" setup becomes a logistical mess with a cumbersome endgame.


Unsatisfactory perhaps, but not necessarily ahistorical.

Both sides had difficulties fielding replacements for existing regiments. Reason being, a new volunteer generally prefered joining a newly formed regiment, where he could perhaps start out at a higher rank. As a consequence existing brigades tended to dwindle; the famed Irish brigade was down to the size of a small regiment at Gettysburg IIRC...yet existed on paper as a full brigade.

Yes this was an administrative and logistical nightmare as you point out...yet neveretheless this was not far from how they did it back then.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/20/2006 7:14:43 AM   
jsaurman

 

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Why not tie the basic game "camp" value to a factor of victory points?   I would make it something like 500 troops for every victory point plus say 2K for each point of national will.  So at the beginning of the game, you would be getting 500 troops every game, and would have to raise new regiments to get things done.  Once the war started to go your way, and you had 12 victory points and +3 national will, you would be getting 6000 plus 6000, which is 12000 reinforcements per turn.  
That seems about the same level it would be if I were building camps in the advanced game.
That also seems to fit in with history, as recruits like to get on the bandwagon with a winner, not with a loser.  If things go badly, recruiting should dry up.

JIM

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/20/2006 7:16:32 AM   
satchel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Unsatisfactory perhaps, but not necessarily ahistorical....this was not far from how they did it back then.


Maybe I was thinking from a more modern perspective. I can't argue against historicity.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/20/2006 5:51:35 PM   
ericbabe


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For the Basic Rules (or any rules in which "Advanced Buildings" is turned OFF), the USA and CSA will have constant levels of reinforcements -- presently the numbers are 20,000 for the USA and 10,000 for the CSA, but these numbers will be moddable in the Data\AcwConstants.txt file.  The "Invalid Corps" upgrade will modify this number, just as it modifies reinforcements in the advanced rules. 

These numbers are based on data that the USA had about 2,500,000 men during the war and the CSA about 1,250,000.  The Civil War lasted about 48 months, or 96 of our turns, so this gives almost 2M US troops and almost 1M CS troops, and assuming that the player starts with a few hundred thousand and recruits/requisitions a few hundred thousand more, gives approximate historical totals (the historical numbers include some troops out West that aren't on our map).  The numbers are comparable to what players can get from Camps in the Advanced game -- though in the Advanced game (depending on the other options) it can take a while to build the 20-30 additional camps required to get this level of reinforcements, it is also possible in the Advanced game to get more reinforcements than this from more Camps.

I considered briefly modifying these numbers by things like National Will, but since this rule will be for the Basic Game I'd like to keep it as simple as possible.


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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/20/2006 6:00:29 PM   
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Do camps pull from the manpower pool? It would seem to me that the game has two methods for creating troops, one is building new units and the second is reinforcing existing units through the use of camps. Both are historical options. If the camps pulled from the manpower pool, then the more camps the player builds the less new unit he should be able to raise. If the system works this way, then it leaves it up to the player to choose his preferred method. If it does not work this way, then it is unrealistic and should be changed.  As for the basic game, maybe give the player a setup option that allows him to pick the reinforcement rate. The higher the rate the more manpower used thereby reducing the number of new units that can be raised.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/21/2006 9:47:39 AM   
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Replacements generated from Camps do not lower the manpower levels of cities, only building new units does that.

I can see how this might seem at first to be unrealisitic, however...the way I rationalize this is that Camps are facilities that scrape up men to use for replacements from other recruiting sources not represented by manpower points.  One source would be rounding up deserters (which were actually quite numerous throughout the war).  Another might be prisoner exchanges (which early in the war were fairly common).  A third might be conscripts drawn from the dregs of 19th century society, unemployed idlers whose contributions to society were so minimal so as to not contribute to Manpower (which may be defined as a measure of the economically productive members of society).

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/21/2006 11:00:22 PM   
spruce

 

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I think infantry construction should be somewhat less expensive - division container production also less expensive - and camps a little more expensive.

Granted if you rely solely on camps - you'll get brigades at 4.000 strength - but your "coverage" of the battlefield will be lower. You'll have crack containers, but fewer of them ... and this is dangerous - for sure against human players - who will blast trough your lines and then you'll have to catch them up and then there's nobody guarding the back door (or front door) .

Camps are not directly imbalancing the game (all those reinforcments), camps are indirectly imbalancing the game as they topple the ratio =

(amount of soldiers in the field) / (payed supply cost)

the supply cost is payed for a brigade - and those "fat" brigades will make a huge difference on your money balance each turn. And your "fat" corps will stand the test in relation to a standard game "minor" army - but with one huge difference - the cost to pay for all this stuff...

another amplifier for imbalancing is the fact that you don't need to put your units on high supply anymore (to favour reinforcment of battered units) - the reinforcments will go automatically to the battered brigades as the non-battered are just full ! This saves also many of your resources ...

using this approach over a longer period of time - simply will make you rich and will allow to buy all sorts of goodies. During my last CSA game I was traveling around on Union soil with the biggest siege gun works - ever seen by men ... he he ...  and I build many Ironclads so I could blockade the port of Washington - now that's a statement !

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/21/2006 11:49:08 PM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Replacements generated from Camps do not lower the manpower levels of cities, only building new units does that.

I can see how this might seem at first to be unrealisitic, however...the way I rationalize this is that Camps are facilities that scrape up men to use for replacements from other recruiting sources not represented by manpower points. One source would be rounding up deserters (which were actually quite numerous throughout the war). Another might be prisoner exchanges (which early in the war were fairly common). A third might be conscripts drawn from the dregs of 19th century society, unemployed idlers whose contributions to society were so minimal so as to not contribute to Manpower (which may be defined as a measure of the economically productive members of society).


In that case, do the large numbers of men that can apparently be drawn from camps seem realistic?

It would make more sense to me to say that all new soldiers come from the same manpower pool, whether they're assigned to existing regiments or to new ones. Surely recruits from any source could have been assigned either to existing regiments or to new ones in reality.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/23/2006 7:57:15 PM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

For the Basic Rules (or any rules in which "Advanced Buildings" is turned OFF), the USA and CSA will have constant levels of reinforcements -- presently the numbers are 20,000 for the USA and 10,000 for the CSA, but these numbers will be moddable in the Data\AcwConstants.txt file. The "Invalid Corps" upgrade will modify this number, just as it modifies reinforcements in the advanced rules.

These numbers are based on data that the USA had about 2,500,000 men during the war and the CSA about 1,250,000. The Civil War lasted about 48 months, or 96 of our turns, so this gives almost 2M US troops and almost 1M CS troops, and assuming that the player starts with a few hundred thousand and recruits/requisitions a few hundred thousand more, gives approximate historical totals (the historical numbers include some troops out West that aren't on our map). The numbers are comparable to what players can get from Camps in the Advanced game -- though in the Advanced game (depending on the other options) it can take a while to build the 20-30 additional camps required to get this level of reinforcements, it is also possible in the Advanced game to get more reinforcements than this from more Camps.

I considered briefly modifying these numbers by things like National Will, but since this rule will be for the Basic Game I'd like to keep it as simple as possible.



Your argument seems right that the US should recruit about 20,000 per turn and the CS about 10,000. But you seem to be proposing to direct all these recruits into existing regiments, whereas in reality most of them (88% of them in the case of the US in 1862) went to form new regiments.

Also, it strains credibility a bit to imagine the CS maintaining the same constant rate of recruitment into 1865, with a lot of its original territory captured or inaccessible. I think the loss of territory may be even more significant than the National Will factor.

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RE: Camps? Where are they? - 12/24/2006 12:15:23 AM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey
Your argument seems right that the US should recruit about 20,000 per turn and the CS about 10,000. But you seem to be proposing to direct all these recruits into existing regiments, whereas in reality most of them (88% of them in the case of the US in 1862) went to form new regiments.


The Union did tend to form new regiments instead of mustering troops into old ones, but I believe these new regiments were often attached to already existing brigades. Even though units such as the Iron Brigade and First Vermont Brigade sustained heavy losses (First Vermont suffered the highest loss of any brigade in U.S. history, and the Iron Brigade suffered the highest proportionate loss of any brigade in the Civil War, if I remember correctly), new regiments were added to them to augment their strength, and they continued to exist throughout the war.


quote:


Also, it strains credibility a bit to imagine the CS maintaining the same constant rate of recruitment into 1865, with a lot of its original territory captured or inaccessible. I think the loss of territory may be even more significant than the National Will factor.


Sure, couldn't agree more, but this is just for the *Basic Rules*. For the Basic Rules I want to keep things as simple as possible.



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