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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

 
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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/7/2013 12:51:12 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Change "Japanese Special Naval Landing Force Marine" To "Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces".

This was a common misconception but there were no Japanese Marines in World War II.

I can give you details if you would like them.

warspite1

Thanks, but the word Marine is not used on the counter. They appear as 1st SNLF Div, 2nd SNLF Div and SNLF.

The three SNLF units have the marine anchor symbol and are thus termed Marines for game purposes i.e. there are special rules that Marine units benefit from, and these, naturally apply to the SNLF.

Re your offer of details - do you have anything on the Japanese Army Landing Forces? There are two Japanese corps counters - one called Imperial Guard and the other LG Marine. These two appear to be "What if" counters but would be useful to know if there is any basis in fact for their appearance in the game?



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2311
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/7/2013 1:59:28 PM   
Neilster


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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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I remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Guard recruited heavily from Hokkaido because many men there were taller: nearly 6 feet tall wasn't uncommon.

Also, obviously there's this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard_(Japan)

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2312
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/7/2013 2:36:58 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Guard recruited heavily from Hokkaido because many men there were taller: nearly 6 feet tall wasn't uncommon.

Also, obviously there's this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard_(Japan)

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Unfortunately nothing in that indicates a marine or naval specialism.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 2313
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/7/2013 3:25:59 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Here is the Corps counter for the Japanese SNLF unit

[2175] [Japanese Special Naval Landing Force Marine]
.P Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.
.P During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at key points – often ahead of a larger force – to seize key objectives.
.P The forerunners of the SNLF (Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases.
.P The following units fought during World War II:
.P Kure naval base: 1st Kure SNLF, 2nd Kure, 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure
.P Maizuru naval base: 1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru, 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru
.P Sasebo naval base: 1st Sasebo SNLF, 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo
.P Yokosuka naval base: 1st Yokosuka SNLF, 2nd Yokosuka, 3rd Yokosuka, 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka
.P In addition to the above, there were small Guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton.
.P The SNLF units varied in size. At most, a single unit was likely to contain no more than 1,600 men – roughly two battalions in size. The smallest units contained around 750 men. For some operations, two units could combine to form a brigade sized outfit. The 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF’s were both airborne trained.
.P The division counters 2171 and 2172 provide details of some of the individual operations of the SNLF and these show at high level, how important these elite units were in the early stages of the war as the Japanese sought to expand their empire.
.P By June 1942, once the Japanese advance had been checked, the need for these troops was no longer as important. From elite, special purpose troops, they became nothing more than garrison troops that were, in many cases, annihilated as they sought to defend outposts in the Pacific; outposts that were taken one by one by the US juggernaut.


Special Naval Landing Forces not Special Naval Landing Force.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 10/7/2013 3:28:18 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2314
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/7/2013 3:50:30 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Here is the Corps counter for the Japanese SNLF unit

[2175] [Japanese Special Naval Landing Force Marine]
.P Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.
.P During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at key points – often ahead of a larger force – to seize key objectives.
.P The forerunners of the SNLF (Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases.
.P The following units fought during World War II:
.P Kure naval base: 1st Kure SNLF, 2nd Kure, 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure
.P Maizuru naval base: 1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru, 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru
.P Sasebo naval base: 1st Sasebo SNLF, 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo
.P Yokosuka naval base: 1st Yokosuka SNLF, 2nd Yokosuka, 3rd Yokosuka, 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka
.P In addition to the above, there were small Guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton.
.P The SNLF units varied in size. At most, a single unit was likely to contain no more than 1,600 men – roughly two battalions in size. The smallest units contained around 750 men. For some operations, two units could combine to form a brigade sized outfit. The 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF’s were both airborne trained.
.P The division counters 2171 and 2172 provide details of some of the individual operations of the SNLF and these show at high level, how important these elite units were in the early stages of the war as the Japanese sought to expand their empire.
.P By June 1942, once the Japanese advance had been checked, the need for these troops was no longer as important. From elite, special purpose troops, they became nothing more than garrison troops that were, in many cases, annihilated as they sought to defend outposts in the Pacific; outposts that were taken one by one by the US juggernaut.


Special Naval Landing Forces not Special Naval Landing Force.
warspite1

Why highlight Marine? As I said, it does not appear on the counter.

Re the name change, using Units plural and Forces plural in the same sentence does not sound right to me? Osprey Men-at-Arms series refers to both Force and Forces so not sure that my sentence was incorrect.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/7/2013 4:16:21 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2315
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/7/2013 3:51:06 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 3020
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Guard recruited heavily from Hokkaido because many men there were taller: nearly 6 feet tall wasn't uncommon.

Also, obviously there's this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard_(Japan)

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Unfortunately nothing in that indicates a marine or naval specialism.


Yep. Sounds hypothetical.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2316
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/8/2013 4:09:26 AM   
brian brian

 

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but oh so useful when commanding the red counters. World in Flames only looks complicated. Really it's just another sake-and-rice cakes affair.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 2317
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/8/2013 10:47:19 AM   
mldtchdog

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/23/2006
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quote:

Re your offer of details - do you have anything on the Japanese Army Landing Forces? There are two Japanese corps counters - one called Imperial Guard and the other LG Marine. These two appear to be "What if" counters but would be useful to know if there is any basis in fact for their appearance in the game?


Try looking up "Japanese Monograph No. 156" "Historical review of Landing Operations of the Japanese Forces"

It really only applies up to 1942.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 2318
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/8/2013 5:24:46 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Why highlight Marine? As I said, it does not appear on the counter.

Re the name change, using Units plural and Forces plural in the same sentence does not sound right to me? Osprey Men-at-Arms series refers to both Force and Forces so not sure that my sentence was incorrect.



Doesn't MWiF use the NATO unit symbols? NATO unit symbols show a marine capable unit.

Are you doing a unit description or forcing the players to read the descriptions to find out what the units can do?


It doesn't matter if you think "Special Naval Landing Forces" sounds right it is what they were called.

Example: What you suggest is the British "Commandos" change their name to the British "Commando".

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2319
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/8/2013 5:54:15 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Why highlight Marine? As I said, it does not appear on the counter.

Re the name change, using Units plural and Forces plural in the same sentence does not sound right to me? Osprey Men-at-Arms series refers to both Force and Forces so not sure that my sentence was incorrect.



Doesn't MWiF use the NATO unit symbols? NATO unit symbols show a marine capable unit.

Are you doing a unit description or forcing the players to read the descriptions to find out what the units can do?


It doesn't matter if you think "Special Naval Landing Forces" sounds right it is what they were called.

Example: What you suggest is the British "Commandos" change their name to the British "Commando".
warspite1

I didn't design the game - ADG did. Some counters state Inf or Arm or Mot etc and some don't. The SNLF - both corps and divisions are in the latter camp.

As I said, the word Marine does not appear on the counter.

Am I doing a unit description? Yes and I am explaining at high level what these counters represent in a historical sense.

Am I forcing players to read descriptions to know what they can do? No I am not forcing anyone to do anything. The write-ups are not designed to further a players rule understanding - they are just a bit of "chrome" to be read or ignored as required. The symbol on the counter tells a player what type it is and what it can do in consultation with the unit description chart (if they do not know already).

So when a respected publication like Osprey use force and forces interchangeably they are wrong?

Re Commandos - yes, the individual units currently in operation are 40, 42, 43 and 45 commando.

So by that reckoning I suspect its, for example, the 1st Kure Special Naval Landing Force

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/The-Royal-Marines/3-Commando-Brigade/45-Commando

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/9/2013 12:08:52 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2320
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/9/2013 1:01:31 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I didn't design the game - ADG did. Some counters state Inf or Arm or Mot etc and some don't. The SNLF - both corps and divisions are in the latter camp.

As I said, the word Marine does not appear on the counter.

Am I doing a unit description? Yes and I am explaining at high level what these counters represent in a historical sense.

Am I forcing players to read descriptions to know what they can do? No I am not forcing anyone to do anything. The write-ups are not designed to further a players rule understanding - they are just a bit of "chrome" to be read or ignored as required. The symbol on the counter tells a player what type it is and what it can do in consultation with the unit description chart (if they do not know already).

So when a respected publication like Osprey use force and forces interchangeably they are wrong?

Re Commandos - yes, the individual units currently in operation are 40, 42, 43 and 45 commando.

So by that reckoning I suspect its, for example, the 1st Kure Special Naval Landing Force



Number 40, 42, 43 and 45 commando taken as a group all together are now called just "a British Commando"?


One U.S. Marine Corps.
One Fleet Marine Force Pacific (FMFPAC).
One Fleet Marine Force Atlantic (FMFLANT).
One U.S. 1st Marine Division.
All are Marine Amphibious Forces but are not a Marine Amphibious Force.

The counter represents a corps size unit of several Special Naval Landing Force units. It is therefore "Special Naval Landing Forces".

Marine is not on the counter because the counter itself shows it as having Marine capability (at least it does in VASSAL). It is not made up of Marines it is made up of Navy personell. Therefore Marine should NOT be in the discription.

There is absolutly NO reason to have Marine in the unit description.



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 10/9/2013 1:22:40 AM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2321
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/9/2013 3:47:48 AM   
Neilster


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Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
I was in the RAAF at 76SQN. We were at the same base as 3SQN, 77SQN and 2OCU but we were all in the Air Force.

I'm not buying into this debate because I think both arguments have merit. If there was only one MWiF SNLF unit then Extraneous would definitely be right, but there isn't.

In general Extraneous, your attitude gets people instinctively offside. Instead of suggesting changes, you demanded them. It's rude. I noticed you complaining on another thread recently that people weren't responding to you. That's probably because they'd rather not have anything to do with you.

Cheers, Neilster

Edited to add a bit

< Message edited by Neilster -- 10/9/2013 4:30:41 AM >

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2322
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/9/2013 4:17:30 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I didn't design the game - ADG did. Some counters state Inf or Arm or Mot etc and some don't. The SNLF - both corps and divisions are in the latter camp.

As I said, the word Marine does not appear on the counter.

Am I doing a unit description? Yes and I am explaining at high level what these counters represent in a historical sense.

Am I forcing players to read descriptions to know what they can do? No I am not forcing anyone to do anything. The write-ups are not designed to further a players rule understanding - they are just a bit of "chrome" to be read or ignored as required. The symbol on the counter tells a player what type it is and what it can do in consultation with the unit description chart (if they do not know already).

So when a respected publication like Osprey use force and forces interchangeably they are wrong?

Re Commandos - yes, the individual units currently in operation are 40, 42, 43 and 45 commando.

So by that reckoning I suspect its, for example, the 1st Kure Special Naval Landing Force



Number 40, 42, 43 and 45 commando taken as a group all together are now called just "a British Commando"?


One U.S. Marine Corps.
One Fleet Marine Force Pacific (FMFPAC).
One Fleet Marine Force Atlantic (FMFLANT).
One U.S. 1st Marine Division.
All are Marine Amphibious Forces but are not a Marine Amphibious Force.

The counter represents a corps size unit of several Special Naval Landing Force units. It is therefore "Special Naval Landing Forces".

Marine is not on the counter because the counter itself shows it as having Marine capability (at least it does in VASSAL). It is not made up of Marines it is made up of Navy personell. Therefore Marine should NOT be in the discription.

There is absolutly NO reason to have Marine in the unit description.


warspite1

Is there a Japanese speaker in the house!?

US Marines. They are known as the Marines. But one would say "units of the Marine Corps" - "not units of the Marines Corps"

Units and Forces in the same sentence just sounds wrong.

Mmmm still not sure about this - probably easier to change the sentence!

Re the second point, I just don't understand what you are saying and its probably better we drop this completely non-point. All I can say for the umpteenth time is that Marine IS NOT on the counter or unit description.

As I've said, the counters state SNLF, 1st SNLF Div or 2nd SNLF Div only. For symbols they have an anchor to denote Marine capability for Game Purposes.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/9/2013 4:23:55 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2323
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/9/2013 7:03:49 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

[2175] [Japanese Special Naval Landing Force Marine]
.P Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.
.P During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at key points – often ahead of a larger force – to seize key objectives.
.P The forerunners of the SNLF (Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases.
.P The following units fought during World War II:
.P Kure naval base: 1st Kure SNLF, 2nd Kure, 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure
.P Maizuru naval base: 1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru, 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru
.P Sasebo naval base: 1st Sasebo SNLF, 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo
.P Yokosuka naval base: 1st Yokosuka SNLF, 2nd Yokosuka, 3rd Yokosuka, 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka
.P In addition to the above, there were small Guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton.
.P The SNLF units varied in size. At most, a single unit was likely to contain no more than 1,600 men – roughly two battalions in size. The smallest units contained around 750 men. For some operations, two units could combine to form a brigade sized outfit. The 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF’s were both airborne trained.
.P The division counters 2171 and 2172 provide details of some of the individual operations of the SNLF and these show at high level, how important these elite units were in the early stages of the war as the Japanese sought to expand their empire.
.P By June 1942, once the Japanese advance had been checked, the need for these troops was no longer as important. From elite, special purpose troops, they became nothing more than garrison troops that were, in many cases, annihilated as they sought to defend outposts in the Pacific; outposts that were taken one by one by the US juggernaut.


Is this exactly the way the write up is viewed by the player?



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2324
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/9/2013 11:18:32 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

[2175] [Japanese Special Naval Landing Force Marine]
.P Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.
.P During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at key points – often ahead of a larger force – to seize key objectives.
.P The forerunners of the SNLF (Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases.
.P The following units fought during World War II:
.P Kure naval base: 1st Kure SNLF, 2nd Kure, 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure
.P Maizuru naval base: 1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru, 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru
.P Sasebo naval base: 1st Sasebo SNLF, 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo
.P Yokosuka naval base: 1st Yokosuka SNLF, 2nd Yokosuka, 3rd Yokosuka, 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka
.P In addition to the above, there were small Guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton.
.P The SNLF units varied in size. At most, a single unit was likely to contain no more than 1,600 men – roughly two battalions in size. The smallest units contained around 750 men. For some operations, two units could combine to form a brigade sized outfit. The 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF’s were both airborne trained.
.P The division counters 2171 and 2172 provide details of some of the individual operations of the SNLF and these show at high level, how important these elite units were in the early stages of the war as the Japanese sought to expand their empire.
.P By June 1942, once the Japanese advance had been checked, the need for these troops was no longer as important. From elite, special purpose troops, they became nothing more than garrison troops that were, in many cases, annihilated as they sought to defend outposts in the Pacific; outposts that were taken one by one by the US juggernaut.


Is this exactly the way the write up is viewed by the player?


warspite1

No - this is how it is viewed

Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.

During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at key points – often ahead of a larger force – to seize key objectives.

The forerunners of the SNLF (Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases.

The following units fought during World War II:

Kure naval base: 1st Kure SNLF, 2nd Kure, 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure

Maizuru naval base: 1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru, 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru

Sasebo naval base: 1st Sasebo SNLF, 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo

Yokosuka naval base: 1st Yokosuka SNLF, 2nd Yokosuka, 3rd Yokosuka, 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka

In addition to the above, there were small Guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton.

The SNLF units varied in size. At most, a single unit was likely to contain no more than 1,600 men – roughly two battalions in size. The smallest units contained around 750 men. For some operations, two units could combine to form a brigade sized outfit. The 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF’s were both airborne trained.

The division counters 2171 and 2172 provide details of some of the individual operations of the SNLF and these show at high level, how important these elite units were in the early stages of the war as the Japanese sought to expand their empire.

By June 1942, once the Japanese advance had been checked, the need for these troops was no longer as important. From elite, special purpose troops, they became nothing more than garrison troops that were, in many cases, annihilated as they sought to defend outposts in the Pacific; outposts that were taken one by one by the US juggernaut.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2325
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/10/2013 2:40:37 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
I will supply a link to the Ospry book since you didn't. Ospry is the best provider of military prints for painting for miniatures war games.

Special Naval Landing Forces published by Qsprey


quote:

"Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions."

"Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF or Tokubetsu Rikusentai) - which were generally deployed in units of a brigade or smaller - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two division counters."



quote:

"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed"

When using a singular subject you can't use "were".

You can use either
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF) - which were generally deployed" or
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which was generally deployed"



quote:

"During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did."

"During World War II the Japanese did not operate their landing forces as an separate marine force."


quote:

"The forerunners of the SNLF (Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases."

"The SNLF were first used during "the Shanghai Incident" which was a short war between the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan (January 28 - March 3, 1932). Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases."


quote:

"The following units fought during World War II:

Kure naval base: 1st Kure SNLF, 2nd Kure, 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure

Maizuru naval base: 1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru, 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru

Sasebo naval base: 1st Sasebo SNLF, 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo

Yokosuka naval base: 1st Yokosuka SNLF, 2nd Yokosuka, 3rd Yokosuka, 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka

In addition to the above, there were small Guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton."



"All of the SNLF's bore the name of a major Japanese naval base for administrative purposes. The following units fought during World War II
1st Kure SNLF (Landing at Legaspi, Philippines), 2nd Kure (Landing at Jolo Island, Philippines), 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure.

1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru (Landing at Wake Island), 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru.

1st Sasebo SNLF (Landing on Menado, Celebes), 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo.

1st Yokosuka (Parachuted onto Menado airfield, Celebes), 2nd Yokosuka (landings at Miri, Seria, and Lutong, Sarawak), 3rd Yokosuka (landing at Koepang, Timor Island), 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka."


References (both sites show diferent information from the same sorce)
Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces by Mike Yaklitch, Allan Alsleben and Akira Takizawa

Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces by Mike Yaklitch, Allan Alsleben and Akira Takizawa

quote:

Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF or Tokubetsu Rikusentai) - which were generally deployed in units of a brigade or smaller - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two division counters.

During World War II the Japanese did not operate their landing forces as an separate marine force. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at key points - often ahead of a larger force - to seize key objectives.

The SNLF were first used during "the Shanghai Incident" which was a short war between the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan (January 28 - March 3, 1932). Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases.

All of the SNLF's bore the name of a major Japanese naval base for administrative purposes. The following units fought during World War II:

1st Kure (landing at Legaspi, Philippines), 2nd Kure (landing at Jolo Island, Philippines), 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure.

1st Maizuru, 2nd Maizuru (landing at Wake Island), 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru.

1st Sasebo (landing on Menado, Celebes), 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo.

1st Yokosuka (Parachuted onto Menado airfield, Celebes), 2nd Yokosuka (landings at Miri, Seria, and Lutong, Sarawak), 3rd Yokosuka (landing at Koepang, Timor Island), 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka.

In addition to the above, there were small guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton.

The SNLF units varied in size. At most, a single unit was likely to contain no more than 1,600 men - roughly two battalions in size. The smallest units contained around 750 men. For some operations, two units could combine to form a brigade sized outfit. The 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF’s were both parachute trained.

The division counters 2171 and 2172 provide details of some of the individual operations of the SNLF and these show at high level, how important these elite units were in the early stages of the war as the Japanese sought to expand their empire.

By June 1942, once the Japanese advance had been checked, the need for these troops was no longer as important. From elite, special purpose troops, they became nothing more than garrison troops that were, in many cases, annihilated as they sought to defend outposts in the Pacific; outposts that were taken one by one by the US juggernaut.



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 10/10/2013 2:42:18 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2326
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/10/2013 7:46:21 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous





quote:

"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed"

When using a singular subject you can't use "were".

You can use either
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF) - which were generally deployed" or
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which was generally deployed"
warspite1

I wasn't. I was talking about units. Please re-read the sentence.

Good catch on Guard (guard) though. I also prefer parachute to airborne too - I will amend.






< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/10/2013 7:47:07 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2327
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/11/2013 3:51:44 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.

It doesn't sound right because of the way you use the word "unit" and "units" in the same sentence.

Your subject should be the SNLF not units. That is why I edited the sentence to...


Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF or Tokubetsu Rikusentai) - which were generally deployed in units of a brigade or smaller - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two division counters.




Kaigun ~ Naval
Tokubetsu ~ Special
Rikusentai ~ Landing Force


Kaigun Tokubetsu Rikusentai ~ Naval Special Landing Force
Kaigun Rikusentai ~ Naval Landing Force
Tokubetsu Rikusentai ~ Special Landing Force


Note: There are some words English that have no counterpart in Japanese. I do not know if "Rikusentai" has a plural or it can be assumed when needed. Japanese grammar is different than English grammar.

Kanjidict 1.7.2

This is the best site I can find for translating romanji (Romanized Japanese) to English and it only does it on a word for word basis.


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2328
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/11/2013 6:34:04 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.

It doesn't sound right because of the way you use the word "unit" and "units" in the same sentence.

Your subject should be the SNLF not units. That is why I edited the sentence to...


Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF or Tokubetsu Rikusentai) - which were generally deployed in units of a brigade or smaller - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two division counters.




Kaigun ~ Naval
Tokubetsu ~ Special
Rikusentai ~ Landing Force


Kaigun Tokubetsu Rikusentai ~ Naval Special Landing Force
Kaigun Rikusentai ~ Naval Landing Force
Tokubetsu Rikusentai ~ Special Landing Force


Note: There are some words English that have no counterpart in Japanese. I do not know if "Rikusentai" has a plural or it can be assumed when needed. Japanese grammar is different than English grammar.

Kanjidict 1.7.2

This is the best site I can find for translating romanji (Romanized Japanese) to English and it only does it on a word for word basis.

warspite1

Okay I will take an executive decision and end it there.

I guess neither of us know 100% what the answer is and so I will go with what I think is right. My subject in that sentence is most definitely the units, and not the SNLF, if we can't agree on that I guess the grammar is secondary


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2329
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 2:25:59 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
How original, a unit write up on units.

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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2330
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 4:41:53 AM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1054
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How original, a unit write up on units.


Actually, 'Special Units'.

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2331
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 6:13:44 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How original, a unit write up on units.


Actually, 'Special Units'.


No he said his subject was "the Units" not "Special Units".

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

My subject in that sentence is most definitely the units, and not the SNLF, if we can't agree on that I guess the grammar is secondary



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 2332
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 6:15:48 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How original, a unit write up on units.
warspite1

Oh dear....... Why? Why? You just can't help yourself can you? What was controversial about my statement?

I am writing about the SNLF. This was was made up of individual units and in one sentence I referred to those units rather than the SNLF as a whole and you get all sarcastic. So what are you saying? If I write about a corps I cannot mention the divisions within? If I write about a division I cannot mention the battalions and brigades? I just do not understand you.

I have found your assistance with the write-ups really helpful and have always been happy to say so publicly. But you just seem incapable of letting any point go. Its pathological - the need to have the last word all the time.

Okay. I'm wrong and you have been right about everything all along - I trust that satisfies.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/12/2013 7:30:12 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2333
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 3:18:00 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How original, a unit write up on units.
warspite1

Oh dear....... Why? Why? You just can't help yourself can you? What was controversial about my statement?

I am writing about the SNLF. This was was made up of individual units and in one sentence I referred to those units rather than the SNLF as a whole and you get all sarcastic. So what are you saying? If I write about a corps I cannot mention the divisions within? If I write about a division I cannot mention the battalions and brigades? I just do not understand you.

I have found your assistance with the write-ups really helpful and have always been happy to say so publicly. But you just seem incapable of letting any point go. Its pathological - the need to have the last word all the time.

Okay. I'm wrong and you have been right about everything all along - I trust that satisfies.


I are sorry. Your grammer were not important anymore subject not important ma to.

Figure it out you.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2334
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 3:24:58 PM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1054
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How original, a unit write up on units.
warspite1

Oh dear....... Why? Why? You just can't help yourself can you? What was controversial about my statement?

I am writing about the SNLF. This was was made up of individual units and in one sentence I referred to those units rather than the SNLF as a whole and you get all sarcastic. So what are you saying? If I write about a corps I cannot mention the divisions within? If I write about a division I cannot mention the battalions and brigades? I just do not understand you.

I have found your assistance with the write-ups really helpful and have always been happy to say so publicly. But you just seem incapable of letting any point go. Its pathological - the need to have the last word all the time.

Okay. I'm wrong and you have been right about everything all along - I trust that satisfies.


I are sorry. Your grammer were not important anymore subject not important ma to.

Figure it out you.




This is why you should drink after you post.

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2335
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 3:53:09 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Going through the write-ups I was surprised to see no Danish write-up so here it goes:

[2677] [Danish Copenhagen Militia - by Robert Jenkins]
.P The Danish Army in World War II is represented by this solitary, low value counter with the name "Copenhagen Militia".
.P In the late thirties, with Adolf Hitler becoming ever more bold in his territorial ambition, the Danish government sought to increase the country's defence forces. At the time of the German invasion of Denmark on the 9th April 1940 - Operation Weserübung-Sud - the Danish Army consisted of the following:
.P A general headquarters under which there were two infantry divisions, each with four infantry regiments, one cavalry regiment, 1 or 2 artillery regiments, and supporting engineer and anti-aircraft battalions. In detail these were:
.B Jutland Division: 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th Infantry Regiments, Jutland Dragoon Regiment, 3rd Field Artillery Regiment, 14th Anti-Aircraft (AA) battalion and 2nd Engineer Battalion.
.B Zealand Division: 1st, 4th, 5th and Guards Infantry Regiments, Guards Hussars Regiment, 1st and 2nd Field Artillery Regiment, 13th AA Battalion and 1st Engineer Battalion.
.P In addition, seven companies of infantry were employed as garrison troops on the island of Bornholm.
.P At full strength (c.85,000 men), these forces could have presented a strong, if ultimately short-term, barrier to any aggressor. However the army that faced the German attack contained nothing like this level of manpower.
.P After Poland was invaded in September 1939, so starting World War II, the Danish government ordered a partial mobilisation of its reservists. Unfortunately these men were then released from duty at the height of the "phoney war". As a result, the Danish Army at the time of the subsequent German attack, stood at less than 15,000 men - many of whom were not fully trained. None of the units, except one AA battalion, was up to strength.
.P In consequence of the above and the Danish government's decisions that day, the German attack on Denmark proved to be the briefest ground campaign in the history of warfare. The Danes had forewarning of the attack. The Danish ambassador had been told by the Germans themselves, the latter assuring him that the Germans were only coming to the Danes assistance to stop a Franco-British attack!
.P The invasion began at 0415hrs on 9th April 1940. Despite knowledge of what was about to happen the Danish armed forces were not ordered to take up defensive positions. Even at this late stage the government was hoping that by not provoking the Germans they would not attack.
.P The Germans launched a co-ordinated strike; on land from across the border in the south of the country; from the air paratroopers were landed in key places and the tiny Danish airforce was practically wiped out on the ground; and more troops were debarked from ships. The most important of the seaborne attacks being that of a battalion of troops from the 308th Regiment that were onboard the German vessel Hansestadt Danzig in Copenhagen harbour. The troops swiftly debarked and, after surprising the port's garrison troops, headed straight for the Amalienborg Palace.
After a brief firefight between the Germans and troops from the King's Life Guard, the Danish King, Christian X, against the wishes of the Commander of the Army, General William Prior, decided that further fighting was pointless. At 0700hrs the order was given to cease firing.
.P The Danes lost 16 men killed and 20 wounded. The number of Germans lost has never been ascertained, but it is widely believed that their casualties were considerably more than their enemy.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/12/2013 4:13:58 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 2336
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 5:22:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How original, a unit write up on units.
warspite1

Oh dear....... Why? Why? You just can't help yourself can you? What was controversial about my statement?

I am writing about the SNLF. This was was made up of individual units and in one sentence I referred to those units rather than the SNLF as a whole and you get all sarcastic. So what are you saying? If I write about a corps I cannot mention the divisions within? If I write about a division I cannot mention the battalions and brigades? I just do not understand you.

I have found your assistance with the write-ups really helpful and have always been happy to say so publicly. But you just seem incapable of letting any point go. Its pathological - the need to have the last word all the time.

Okay. I'm wrong and you have been right about everything all along - I trust that satisfies.


I are sorry. Your grammar were not important anymore subject not important ma to.

Figure it out you.




This is why you should drink after you post.


Zorachus99 I know this is beyond your comprehension but I will try to reach your level of understanding.

When speaking or writing you are to try and match the level of comprehension of your audience. Since warspite1 chose to forgo grammar I wrote so he can understand.

I wrote to warspite1's level of comprehension.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 2337
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 5:27:14 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7980
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Interesting... an idiot who can discern levels of comprehension.

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Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2338
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 5:36:50 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Interesting... an idiot who can discern levels of comprehension.


And now we hear from the troll paulderynck putting in his worthless two cents.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 2339
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/12/2013 5:50:46 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How original, a unit write up on units.
warspite1

Oh dear....... Why? Why? You just can't help yourself can you? What was controversial about my statement?

I am writing about the SNLF. This was was made up of individual units and in one sentence I referred to those units rather than the SNLF as a whole and you get all sarcastic. So what are you saying? If I write about a corps I cannot mention the divisions within? If I write about a division I cannot mention the battalions and brigades? I just do not understand you.

I have found your assistance with the write-ups really helpful and have always been happy to say so publicly. But you just seem incapable of letting any point go. Its pathological - the need to have the last word all the time.

Okay. I'm wrong and you have been right about everything all along - I trust that satisfies.


I are sorry. Your grammar were not important anymore subject not important ma to.

Figure it out you.




This is why you should drink after you post.


Zorachus99 I know this is beyond your comprehension but I will try to reach your level of understanding.

When speaking or writing you are to try and match the level of comprehension of your audience. Since warspite1 chose to forgo grammar I wrote so he can understand.

I wrote to warspite1's level of comprehension.


warspite1

I could quite justifiably get a tad miffed at that comment. But I do not wish to fall out with you and so would instead ask you please to explain what exactly the issue is with the unit / units.

No I am not talking about the SNLF Force / Forces as clearly neither of us are experts and we have to agree to disagree.

I am talking about post 2327 and the latest subject of your ire and which has led to the latest unpleasantness.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2340
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