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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/21/2008 6:41:12 AM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would keep it to the more famous ships..like Bismarck, Hood, Prince of Wales, Yamato, Musashi, Murat, and add in a couple locations where ships were sunk en masse like Midway, Pearl, Taranto harbor, Ironbottom sound, PQ17..I wouldn't get too crazy..I do want to play this some time

Murat ?
And no Yorktown, Lexington, Wasp or other CV ?


I only put Murat down because it was a Russian BB so that by itself makes it unique plus the fact it was sunk by a stuka.

If it was up to me, I would only put down those that were pretty famous or were lost in some unique fashion or some famous battle. It would be nice to have a little "blurb" to go along with when and how it was sunk.

It would also be easier this way too..so in the case of the Yorktown..you could include it in the general location of the "Battle for Midway" write-up that also includes the Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, and Soryu.

The same would go with the Lexington with a "Coral Sea" write-up that indicates that was the first carrier to carrier battle.

As for the Wasp, it was just a lucky sub hit..nothing remarkable about how or when it was lost..the Hornet..same goes there unless you have a write-up for the eastern solomons battle.

You have to draw the line somewhere..

I would include those ships sunk in port if it was a result of a unique event..I'm doing this from memory..so there are bound to be more but I would include the following:

Royal Oak - sunk by U-47 in what was supposed to be an impenetrable Scapa Flow at the outset of the war
Bismarck and Hood - needs no explanation..famous encounter
Prince of wales and Repulse - 1st capital ships sunk at sea solely by airpower
Marat - only Russian BB sunk and by a stuka at that
Italian BBs at Taranto - famous encounter..sunk by a bunch of torpedo biplanes
BB's at Pearl Harbor - needs no explanation..famous encounter
Lexington and Shoho? I think that's right..Coral Sea..first carrier to carrier battle
Carriers sunk at Midway..again no need for explanation..include yorktown and all 4 Japanese carriers sunk
Graf Spee - another famous encounter..not too many pocket BB's out there..let alone in the south Atlantic
Ironbottom sound - here I would list a few of the famous ships collecting barnacles there..including BB's Kirishima, Hiei, maybe the Juneau with the 5 Sullivan brothers, Pt 109, possibly a few more
Musahsi - just because its one of the 2 biggest
Yamato - same as above
Tirpitz - just cuz it caused the allies such a headache just by sitting in a Fjord
PQ 17 - a pretty disasterous encounter in the arctic
USS Indianapolis - cuz they all got ate by sharks..and they had just delivered the 1st a-bomb
Shinano - sunk on maidan voyage and step-sister to the Yamato
Taiho - sunk on maiden voyage

I'm sure I could think of more..but these are ones that really stick in my mind as worthy of an extra write-up.

Andy


< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 5/21/2008 6:44:35 AM >

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Post #: 571
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/21/2008 7:00:32 AM   
Sabre21


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Another option..and I know Steve will love me for this..is to put a little set of crossed sabres at places of famous battles..not too many mind you..but this could include those ships sunk and the strategic or tactical outcome..

This could be naval, ground, and air. So one could be "Battle of the Atlantic"..covers the story about the U-boats, then you have "Battle of Britain",
also Stalingrad, Kursk, Midway, Guadacanal, Coral Sea, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Philipine Sea, Singapore, El Alamein, Tobruk, Dunkirk, Pearl Harbor,
...these are battles that I believe had a serious impact on the outcome of the war..there are no doubt more..and I could list several hundred others battles but they don't have the importance as I think those above do.

There are also special events that could warrant a battle write-up..like Dolittle's Raid, the Dieppe Raid, the assault on Eban Emael, Merril's Marauders,
or even more large scale operations like "Barbarossa" or "Torch".

Ok..time to get back to these air-write-ups..I've procrastinated long enough

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Post #: 572
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/21/2008 8:08:27 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Another option..and I know Steve will love me for this..is to put a little set of crossed sabres at places of famous battles..not too many mind you..but this could include those ships sunk and the strategic or tactical outcome..

This could be naval, ground, and air. So one could be "Battle of the Atlantic"..covers the story about the U-boats, then you have "Battle of Britain",
also Stalingrad, Kursk, Midway, Guadacanal, Coral Sea, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Philipine Sea, Singapore, El Alamein, Tobruk, Dunkirk, Pearl Harbor,
...these are battles that I believe had a serious impact on the outcome of the war..there are no doubt more..and I could list several hundred others battles but they don't have the importance as I think those above do.

There are also special events that could warrant a battle write-up..like Dolittle's Raid, the Dieppe Raid, the assault on Eban Emael, Merril's Marauders,
or even more large scale operations like "Barbarossa" or "Torch".

Ok..time to get back to these air-write-ups..I've procrastinated long enough

While interesting, these are out-of-scope for MWIF product 1. In particular, anything other than placing a simple label on the map would require additional code.

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Post #: 573
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/21/2008 10:41:59 AM   
Norman42


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quote:

This entire region I described is full of lakes, forests, small rivers, swamps, peat bogs, Glacial Morraines, etc.


Having lived in the region as well, and hunted and fished through all these areas, I can back this up.

I cannot think of any terrain in the world that would be harder to campaign through. The wilderness on both sides of the border in Northern Minnesota/Ontario are truely the extreme definition of 'rough terrain' and liberally sprinkling swamps in this region is quite realistic; you literally can't walk 500 feet without falling into a small lake/river/bog, or walking straight off a rocky escarpment... into another lake or bog.

'Mesabi Range' (or 'Iron Range', I've heard both used for the iron mining region North and West of Duluth) would be acceptable for the resource here.

Don't get me started on the size of the mosquitoes there. I swear one carried off a moose I shot...



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Post #: 574
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/21/2008 4:09:31 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Astarix
I've lived in the Upper Midwest for 40 years.  Spent a lot of time hunting and fishing in Northern Minnesota.  No better place on Earth, even if the Winters can get insanely cold.

It looks like you know the area quite well Jason.

Could you help me having a better understanding of what you propose to change, by editing the attached reduced screenshot ?
Just using Paint and marking F for Forest, S for Swamp and M for mountain, and drawing blue lines for rivers should be enough for me.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 575
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/21/2008 11:59:38 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Astarix
You should lable the RP hex in Northern Minnesota, The Mesabi Range.  In the Chippewa Language it means "Giant".  The ore deposits in this area were discovered in 1887 and began being commercially exploited in 1895.  From the turn of the 20th Century until today, Northern Minnesota has produced 75% of the domestically mined Iron Ore.  There is an Open Pit Iron Mine just outside of Hibbing called the Rust-Hull-Manoming mine that has produced 700million tons of comercial grade ore since it opened.  It is the largest Open Pit Iron Mine in the world and the second largest Open Pit Mine in North America.  During WWII this single mine produced 25% of all the Iron Ore used in the U.S.

I have lebelled it Hibbing, as I prefer to label RP hexes with a city / town name. However, I also put the Mesabi Range name as a geographical feature (white).

quote:

Final couple of points.  In Michigan between the upper and lower peninsulas there is a railroad crossing that I don't believe existed during this time.  Its in the same Hex as the Crossing Arrow, which is known as the Mackinac straits.  Also, there should be a River Hexside where the rail line crosses from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan Into Canada.  This river hexside connects Lake Superior to Lake Huron and is the location of the Soo Locks, which were built in the 20's to allow Ore Carriers from Duluth to access the steel mills in the cities along the Shores of Lake Michigan and Lake Erie.

This river hexside is already there, but partly hidden by the border with Canada.
As for the railroad crossing at Mackinac straits, it exists on the WiF FE maps, and the 1940 maps I have show railways on both sides of the straits, so for the MWiF game, there is a crossing.

Could you make me a sketch map of which hexes you'd see as forested, and which you'd sea swamp or mountain ? Also add the rivers you think should be present.

Converting clear hexes to forest in north easterern Minnessota and northern Wisconsin seems to make sense from what you say and from the map I look at, but for the mountains hexes I am less sure.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 1:08:10 AM   
sajbalk


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I will state for the record that the map of Iowa looks just fine.

As to the Easter Eggs, I like them. They add a little fun to the game, and this is the purpose for the game. Map clutter at normal resolutions should not be a problem.

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Post #: 577
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 1:24:57 AM   
Sewerlobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42
you literally can't walk 500 feet without falling into a small lake/river/bog, or walking straight off a rocky escarpment... into another lake or bog.


You write with a frustrated tone of one who has tried -- again and again. 496 -- 497 -- 49 aaagh! --- 1 -- 2

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Post #: 578
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 4:10:16 AM   
Astarix

 

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As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

About the Mackinac crossing, there was no crossing of the Mackinac straits until they opened the Highway bridge in 1962. The winds in the straits can hit 100miles per hour. There may have been rail lines into the hexes on either side of the straits, but actually building a trestle over 9 miles long in those straits would have been an engineering nightmare. The Interstate 75 bridge that exists there now, took 4 years to construct, and is one of the longest suspension bridges on the planet. There are ports on the southern side of the Upper Peninisula that are connected by rail, which I believe, represents the rail line you are talking about. On the Lower Peninsula rail lines run along both shores of the Peninsula, but there was no possible way that a rail trestle could have crossed the straits and still allowed Shipping traffic through the straits. The rest of the rail lines in this area are accurate.

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.






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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 5:20:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Astarix

As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

About the Mackinac crossing, there was no crossing of the Mackinac straits until they opened the Highway bridge in 1962. The winds in the straits can hit 100miles per hour. There may have been rail lines into the hexes on either side of the straits, but actually building a trestle over 9 miles long in those straits would have been an engineering nightmare. The Interstate 75 bridge that exists there now, took 4 years to construct, and is one of the longest suspension bridges on the planet. There are ports on the southern side of the Upper Peninisula that are connected by rail, which I believe, represents the rail line you are talking about. On the Lower Peninsula rail lines run along both shores of the Peninsula, but there was no possible way that a rail trestle could have crossed the straits and still allowed Shipping traffic through the straits. The rest of the rail lines in this area are accurate.

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.






I take it that S is for swamp and W is for forest (woods)? M is for?

What Patrice meant by the straits hexside is that a ferry can be used to connect rail lines. For example, the rail line crossing the Kerch straits in Crimea can be used as if it were a continuous rail line for the purpose of rail movement.

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Post #: 580
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 8:36:30 AM   
Astarix

 

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M = Mountain.  In a previous post I mentioned that these "hills" are not very high, but they are very rugged granite and basaltic formations.  The highest peaks in the Lake Superior Highlands may only be around 2500 feet above sea level with average elevations are in the 1400-1800 feet above sea level, but I can tell you from driving and hiking this area, that its every bit as nasty as any mountains you have been in, for all its lack of altitude.  I know that forest is used to denote rough terrain, but some of these areas really do derserve the designation of mountain. 

A little more info on the Iron Mines in Minnesota.  There are actually, or were in the time frame of WWII, 3 major Iron Ranges.  From South to North, they were the Cuyuna, centered just North of the Brainerd and Mill Lacs Lake area in the towns of Crosby and Ironton.  The Mesabi Range, which runs generally NE, for 110 miles, from the towns of Cohasset and Grand Rapids, in the Southwest portion, through Hibbing, Chisholm, and Virgina and finally ending at Babbit in the Northeast.  The final range is the Vermillion Range, which runs generally NE for about 30 miles starting at the southern shore of Lake Vermillion and including the towns of Tower, Soudan, Ely and Winton.  The Railroad I drew in runs from the eastern most sections of the Mesabi and Vermillion ranges down to the Harbors of Beaver Bay and Taconite Harbor.  There is also a line that runs from Beaver Bay down to Duluth. 

Looking at the Map again, I realize there was room to drawn in the Minnesota and I will scribble that in after I get home from work tomorrow.  Still getting used to the scale.  Also, I spelled Rainy Lake, Rainey in a previous post, the correct spelling is Rainy.

As far as the Mackinac Straits, I remember the movement and supply rules regarding straits, but was trying to provide as accurate a picture/depiction of the region as I could.  The rail line going across the strait sort of surprised me, as physically, it doesn't exist. 

Jason

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 581
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 8:55:25 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Astarix
As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

Whatever the skill, the result is that everyone here can now comment on those proposals as this is very easy to see which hexes you propose to change to Forest (W), Swamp (S) and Montains (M) and the river you propose as well as the railways.

Personaly I'm surprised that you put Forest instead of Swam south & SE of the Lake of the Woods, because there seems to ba a lot of real swamps here on my 40s maps.

About the forest added all around, this seems fair because my maps also show lots of forests here.
quote:

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.

I'll post another shot that have this area.

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Post #: 582
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 7:04:59 PM   
Norman42


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Astarix

As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

About the Mackinac crossing, there was no crossing of the Mackinac straits until they opened the Highway bridge in 1962. The winds in the straits can hit 100miles per hour. There may have been rail lines into the hexes on either side of the straits, but actually building a trestle over 9 miles long in those straits would have been an engineering nightmare. The Interstate 75 bridge that exists there now, took 4 years to construct, and is one of the longest suspension bridges on the planet. There are ports on the southern side of the Upper Peninisula that are connected by rail, which I believe, represents the rail line you are talking about. On the Lower Peninsula rail lines run along both shores of the Peninsula, but there was no possible way that a rail trestle could have crossed the straits and still allowed Shipping traffic through the straits. The rest of the rail lines in this area are accurate.

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.







A few comments from someone who lived in Fort William (aka Thunder Bay):

The 3 M hexes:
- the southern one (Mt McKay to Mount Josephine range) - Yes, very rugged and steep.
- NE of Isle Royal (Sibley Peninsula) - Yes, extremely steep, the famed Sleeping Giant mountain is here.
- northern one (Red Rock/Nipigon region) Again yes, very rugged and steep cliffs.

The W hexes in Minnesota :
- All look fine, its a very woody area, many lakes. Forest represents it well.

The 4 S hexes along border :
- the 2 western ones - Yes, as I mentioned above its festooned with bogs and lakes.
- the south eastern one (US side) - Grand Marais area, I'd maybe leave it forest
- the north eastern one (next to Fort William) - Leave Forest. This is more hill/woodsy.

The Pigeon River :
- the river that forms the border in this region. It does swoop down on a south east angle as it reaches Lake Superior, but, so does the border. Since the border doesnt show that slight bend, I'd move the river as shown to follow the border.

.


< Message edited by Norman42 -- 5/22/2008 7:06:17 PM >


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Post #: 583
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 8:20:04 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42
The 4 S hexes along border :
- the 2 western ones - Yes, as I mentioned above its festooned with bogs and lakes.
- the south eastern one (US side) - Grand Marais area, I'd maybe leave it forest
- the north eastern one (next to Fort William) - Leave Forest. This is more hill/woodsy.

And what about the 2 hexes of Swamp that Jason advises to change as Forest ? The WiF FE USA map as Swamps here, and the map of the USA I have too.




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< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/22/2008 8:21:08 PM >

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 8:31:42 PM   
Norman42


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I would leave the northern one as swamp. The southern one...could go either way, I'd probably lean to forest for that one.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 8:58:07 PM   
Froonp


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So, it would look like this. Would this be OK ?




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 10:09:35 PM   
Froonp


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Here is this place in the world, after Norman & Jason input. Rivers & Lakes cannot be changed easily, so if they are done, this will be in the future.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 10:15:37 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk
I will state for the record that the map of Iowa looks just fine.

Looks like perfect tank country.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/22/2008 11:40:34 PM   
Norman42


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quote:

So, it would look like this. Would this be OK ?


Looks great. Much more accurate.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/23/2008 4:27:30 AM   
Astarix

 

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As far as the map you posted, it looks like they didn't really know what to do with the area south of the Lake of the Woods.  It isn't actually and wasn't nearly as wet as that map would have one believe.  There is a lot of peat bog in the area, however, and it appears that they are using swamp to dipict this fact.  So changing the southern hex and leaving the 2 closer to the lake as swamp is a good representation.

The only other thing you might consider is moving Fort William (Thunder Bay) closer to the shore in the Northeastern part of the Hex to better represent its true location.  It is, and was, the port through which the rp hex to its west was shipped through.

Another piece of random trivia.  Minnesota is called the Land of 10,000 lakes, but there are actually in excess of 15,000 lakes with a surface area of at least 100 acres, many of them are much larger.  The vast majority of them are in the Northern half of the state, although there are approximately 600 lakes just within the Twin Cities Metro region.  The state is tremendously rich in wetlands and forested areas.

Excellent job, Patrice.  Looks much better, as Norman said.

Jason

Edit: The mountain hex in Minnesota is called the Sawtooth Range if you are interested in another place name. I am not sure what those hills are called north of the border.


< Message edited by Astarix -- 5/23/2008 4:30:20 AM >

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/23/2008 6:06:15 AM   
Norman42


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quote:

The only other thing you might consider is moving Fort William (Thunder Bay) closer to the shore in the Northeastern part of the Hex to better represent its true location.


Yes.

Fort William/Port Arthur (now known collectively as Thunder Bay) is indeed a port city and should be on the coast of Lake Superior for accuracy.

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Post #: 591
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 3:13:22 AM   
marcuswatney

 

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Going back to Post 377, I think Dominica needs to be identified as CW, as it lies between two French possessions.

Also, who owns the islands between US Virgin and French Antilles (1 hex E and 1 hex NE of St Thomas)?

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Post #: 592
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 3:57:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42


quote:

The only other thing you might consider is moving Fort William (Thunder Bay) closer to the shore in the Northeastern part of the Hex to better represent its true location.


Yes.

Fort William/Port Arthur (now known collectively as Thunder Bay) is indeed a port city and should be on the coast of Lake Superior for accuracy.

Ports on lakes aren't part of the WIF design. Essentially, ships can not operate in lakes. This undoubtedly reflects on the original game design where there are few lakes in Europe that warrant taking up an entire hex, much less several connected hexes like the Great Lakes do.

I don't see myself changing the rules about this.

As another weirdness of this treatment of lakes in the rules, they freeze over in winter such that land units can cross them as if they were clear hexes. I don't see that actually happening with the Great Lakes, though my experience there is marginal. The image of an armor column crossing Lake Superior just seems wrong to me.

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Post #: 593
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 3:59:26 AM   
Taxman66


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In MWiF 2 it should be possible to designate which lakes freeze and which don't.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 4:11:02 AM   
Astarix

 

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Steve,

I think, what Norman and I were commenting about is that the location of Thunder Bay looks really strange that far south and inland the way it is now. Even though there are no Lake ports, I think we are suggesting the change in location for the Aesthetic and realism of the change.

And yeah, tanks driving across lake superior....

The port of Duluth freezes as does the lake out to about 10-20 miles from shore, farther out in some areas, but some of the winter storms that occur can cause ice pile ups that are just amazing. The central part of the lake is ice free even in the dead of January when temperatures can drop as low as -45F or colder. A really interesting side effect of this, is that you can find Ocean going Frieghters stacked up outside the port waiting for ice out up to 2-4 weeks before the port is clear of ice.

Jason

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Post #: 595
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 5:45:53 AM   
Norman42


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Yes, I'm not suggesting it be a port, just that it be moved to the coastline side of the hex, since it is a port city, it looks odd 100 kilometers inland. :)

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 6:20:19 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

In MWiF 2 it should be possible to designate which lakes freeze and which don't.

Yes.

And perhaps make that which individual lake hexes, so it isn't an all or nothing design decision.

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Post #: 597
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 6:55:18 AM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1637
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline
Yup.  On the otherhand I'd hate to see the WiF (not America in Flames mind you) game where it mattered which of the great lake hexes froze or not. 

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 598
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 10:00:04 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Going back to Post 377, I think Dominica needs to be identified as CW, as it lies between two French possessions.

When the mouse is on it, there is "Dominica, British Antilles" written in the status bar of the game. Do you think that his would be enough ?

quote:

Also, who owns the islands between US Virgin and French Antilles (1 hex E and 1 hex NE of St Thomas)?

It is British Antilles too.

(in reply to marcuswatney)
Post #: 599
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 5/24/2008 10:30:04 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66
In MWiF 2 it should be possible to designate which lakes freeze and which don't.

Yes.

And perhaps make that which individual lake hexes, so it isn't an all or nothing design decision.

Wow, great idea !

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 600
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