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Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil?

 
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Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 4:06:57 PM   
Nomad

 

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I am wondering what people think of a Japanese player bombing the chinese HI, Resources, and/or oil centers? Is it a gamey thing or is it not? It is just inspired playing? I am holding my opinion until after a few resposnses. Thank you for the input.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 4:15:42 PM   
jcax101

 

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Do you want my opinion? Hahahaha...

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 4:36:03 PM   
Halsey


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As a long standing Allied Fanboy.
I'm soon to start a joint campaign as the Japanese.
Pauk, you reading this?

As soon as the next CHS update comes out.

As a future Japanese player I will not attack any strategic targets.
They were created because of the wonky supply distribution that this game uses.

Though there are historical records of the Japanese attacking city/manpower targets.
If you consider terror bombing against cities as attacks on manpower centers.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 4:39:37 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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I am not sure the game engine can take it.

From a historical perspective, WOULD the Japanese bomb resources? Wouldn't they want them undamaged for their use?

As to fighting a war against the Chinese, I think the best way to do so would be to Spray herbicide on their rice fields. If you kill a half million of their citizens/soldiers, all you've done is make it easier for them the feed the rest.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 4:58:23 PM   
Nemo121


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quote:

If you consider terror bombing against cities as attacks on manpower centers. 


It was good enough for the RAF and the 8th Air Force. So turn-around's fair game.

I suppose the answer has to be linked to what your house rules for China are. If you are forbidding the taking of all of China then I would aver that the bombing of Chinese resources is certainly justified as the only other way in which the Japanese can impact Chinese supply in manners which don't, as a side effect, train up the Chinese infantry.

If one is allowing the capture of china then I wouldn't bother bombing resources, HI, etc. Better to try to take them intact and turn them into a source of strength for one's own forces instead of trying to limit the strength and succour they provide the enemy. Of course if you're going to approach China as an attritional theatre then foregoing short-term benefits in order to achieve such a long-term goal may lie outside of your concept of operations.

So, in short, the answer wholy depends on both the "house rules" and whether one is taking the direct or a more indirect strategic approach.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 5:06:28 PM   
Nomad

 

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Basically Nemo, there are no house rules to cover this( I hate a bunch of house rules ). As stated above, the supply rules are a bit sketchy so my idea is that the HI and resource centers are mostly providing the basic supply needed to survive( food, water, housing, clothing, meds, light arms and ammo for defense, etc ) and the supply brought in by ledo/burma road and air are the the bullets and arms needed to mount any offensive. I am just trying to get an idea of what others think of this.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 5:18:11 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I loathe it as a tactic find it very gamey and will in future be arranging house rules to prevent it in non rail hexes.

If I wanted to play land war in Asia I would go play another game

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 5:23:14 PM   
pauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

I'm soon to start a joint campaign as the Japanese.
Pauk, you reading this?



..this is the end, my friends....

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 5:26:56 PM   
pauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
If I wanted to play land war in Asia I would go play another game


So i guess that means I'm safe in Burma until the end of the war?

Just joking...

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 5:36:09 PM   
pauk


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well, you could say it is gamey... but if you want to "pacify" China and neutralise Allied bombers than this is only way to do it.

Especially if the PDU is on - there is nothing what would prevent Allies from bombing to dust Japanese HI in China in 42...

I done it in my game with Andy, and since we didn't had house rules regarding Allied bombers in China i feared that this could happend. I choosed that option, rather than screaming latter, "hey, it isnt fair what you do with your bombers".

To be honest, Andy helped me a lot - AVG was used in Malaya/DEI and almost destroyed in couple of weeks. I doubt that i would do it easily if he keeps AVG in China.

Well, almost all players moving AVG to Malaya/DEI and that leaves doors wide open for the Japanese....



< Message edited by pauk -- 6/3/2006 5:37:29 PM >


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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 5:50:54 PM   
Nomad

 

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I moved the AVG to China and he is still killing me. He is using 60-80 A6M2s with their bonus and all. I guess I will tell him to go ahead and bomb and just plan a large retribution.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 7:36:18 PM   
AirGriff


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I don't know as much as I should about the war in China, but wasn't there a sort of a sloppy, unwritten ceasefire there until the Japanese finally decided to really make a drive in the last year or so of the war? If so, you could justify a houserule. Problem is, when things turn around later in the game it wouldn't be fair to start using Chinese bases to bomb Japan. Of course, that's what happend, but you can't force the Jap player to take strat bombing off the table unless you're willing to do the same. Just a thought.


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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 7:36:45 PM   
castor troy


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I have a house rule in all my games that Japanese aren´t allowed to bomb any resources, HI or oil in China. Far too easy to destroy everything. Japs are allowed to bomb everywhere else on the map. Same goes for Allies, not allowed to bomb resources, HI or oil out of the areas that weren´t under Japanese control at the beginning of the war. This has led to good results in my games, as it prevents e.g. suicide attacks with carriers to destroy oil centers,... And it´s hard to imagine 1000+ bombers attacking on a daily basis Allied cities under Japanese control in real life. Would be the same as if 8th Airforce would bomb France to stoneage. And if Allies want to handicap Japanese HI then they have to reconquer the resource centers and, or destroy the Japanese merchant fleet.

One of my favourite houserule (both for playing Allied or Japanese side) as the results were pretty good.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 6/3/2006 7:37:48 PM >

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 7:43:01 PM   
KDonovan


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in my game (stock) my oppenant is killing me with the bombing of resources/oil/HI/manpower. Tried to stop it at first with the woefully pathetic chinese AF and a couple US squadrens (allright they were P26's and P35s) and had some success in downing about 120 bombers, but once he moved in a couple of Zeros i got squashed and had to retreat my AF. At which point the supply situation became impossible to move in better US aircraft. Now all my cities are are in the red (except Chungking..its in the orange) and its only 3/1/42. I will probably be down to fortress Chungking w/in 3 more months

in starting this game Tom warned me he intended to bomb my resource centers in china and ask if i thought it was gamey. I thought..."of course not, you should be able to bomb whatever you want...its war". At the time my experience in playing China was very limited as past oppenants never really tried hard in that theatre...plus i played on Niks mod, and sat comfortably behind my level 9 forts. Now i have an oppenent who is a master at systematic destruction and despite all my best efforts, i'm gonna lose China w/in 6 months. Therefore my opinion now has somewhat change in regards to bombing resource centers. By that let me explain.

IMO I think it all depends on what map or mod you play on if the japanese are able to bomb resource centers. If you are playing Nik's mod, his front line cities are level 9 forts, so supply isn't wasted trying to build up forts, in which case i believe its fair to bomb cities. Never played CHS, but i heard that the lack of the high speed rail line really slows down the japanese advance, there i would say its fair for the Japanese to bomb cities to compensate for this. However, after experiencing the stock game rail system and japanese destroying my resources in a blink of an eye, and probably losing all of China in 6 months, i would have to disagree with the bombing of Chinese cities. Theres just too much stacked against the chinese b/t the inexperieced troops, only level 3 forts, vulnerable supply lines, high speed rail lines of death, inadeaquate garrison forces for the japanese, zero bonus, and pathetic AF.

In my next game i would probably make it a house rule not to bomb resource centers...and in return i won't station 4E bombers. Of course in my next game i will probably play CHS (in conjuction with Niks mod), in which case chinese cities are fair play.

of course...maybe i just suck at land warfare, and thats why i'm looking for a reason why i'm gonna lose China so fast

< Message edited by KDonovan -- 6/3/2006 7:45:39 PM >

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 7:59:55 PM   
Nemo121


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Well, basically, I would view only an annihilated threat as insignificant while any threat which is still in existence ( no matter how insignificant or close to death it may appear) as potentially dangerous.

So, my preference would be to not bomb it and just knock china out of the war with a massive ground campaign. If you feel that that cannot be achieved then, yes, I would seek to destroy China's logistics. Once you destroy the logistical underpinning then the troops in the field are, largely irrelevant.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 8:47:48 PM   
33Vyper


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I do not think that it is gamey.   It is either Chunking or Changsha (however the hell you spell it) had the highest number of individual air raids during WWII.  I was watching some show on the rise of Mao and they had some historical footage of the city burning etc... 

Bottom line is that no matter what Japan does they will loose .... so why Allied fanboy's get soo upset I will never know.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 8:52:19 PM   
grraven2004


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I am the player bombing Chunking back into the stone age in the game Nomad is referring to. I will be the first to admit that the main reason I've started doing this is to deny the Chinese supply. Once I saw that all the forward cities were behind level 9 forts I knew there was not going to be any easy rollovers. The fact that I'm still fairly new to the ground combat in this game didn't help my situation. After some discussion with Nomad I have stopped bombing resources however HI and oil in my opinion are fair game. Using Niks mod I don't think its unreasonable to try and deny the Chinese supply. I feel it may be the only way to get anywhere. If there is a way to capture cities behind level 9 forts without trashing your entire army to do so I would be more than happy to try. I have read some of the AAR's and still can't quite get the hang of troop movements and where and when I should attack. So I fell back on bombing supply generators to keep the Chinese from going on the offensive until I get my crap together. I would love to get any advice from any of the Japanese veterans on how to conduct a proper ground campaign in China. If anyone is willing to send me advice thanks in advance.

Grraven

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 8:53:18 PM   
Nomad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

I do not think that it is gamey.   It is either Chunking or Changsha (however the hell you spell it) had the highest number of individual air raids during WWII.  I was watching some show on the rise of Mao and they had some historical footage of the city burning etc... 

Bottom line is that no matter what Japan does they will loose .... so why Allied fanboy's get soo upset I will never know.



Does my post indicate that I am upset? Keep your crappy remarks to yourself in the future. I was and am asking for opinions about this aspect of the game. I will mark down that you think anything goes then and it is not gamey.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 6/3/2006 8:54:13 PM >


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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 9:47:36 PM   
33Vyper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

I do not think that it is gamey. It is either Chunking or Changsha (however the hell you spell it) had the highest number of individual air raids during WWII. I was watching some show on the rise of Mao and they had some historical footage of the city burning etc...

Bottom line is that no matter what Japan does they will loose .... so why Allied fanboy's get soo upset I will never know.



Does my post indicate that I am upset? Keep your crappy remarks to yourself in the future. I was and am asking for opinions about this aspect of the game. I will mark down that you think anything goes then and it is not gamey.


????

My crappy remarks???

I am puzzled why you took my comments personally as no offense was intended. This particular issue I do not consider gamey .... you will note I did not mention you personally or by your forum name in my reply. By all means mark me down as whatever you please.......since I could really rather care less.

There are quite a few things that I do find 'gamey'....but let us remember this is a game. I think that Matrix is working on a great deal of things and each release seems to be better and better. I am sorry that you seem to have taken offense to my reply...however I stand by it. I would suggest that before you go off and attack other forum members that you re-read the code associated with this forum.. you will find that there is nothing in my reply that warranted your insulting behaviour. However when you read your reply....I believe it is something that is deserving of sanction.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 9:54:28 PM   
worr

 

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Since the Japanese lost the historical war, anything they do to reverse this outcome must be considered gaming the system. ;)

Worr, out


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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 10:06:22 PM   
Nemo121


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I'd point out that it is eminently possible to take China in 6 months in the stock game without any strategic bombing campaign so perhaps the strategic bombing helped things but I doubt it was decisive.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 10:13:29 PM   
bilbow


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Bombing Chineese resources has always struck me as gamey because capturing them what what the Japanese were trying to do. I have generally been able to achieve my objectives in China without doing so. There is not enough supply in China anyway for the basing of significant numbers if Allied bombers, so in my games is becomes a non-issue.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 10:23:49 PM   
ADavidB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I am wondering what people think of a Japanese player bombing the chinese HI, Resources, and/or oil centers? Is it a gamey thing or is it not? It is just inspired playing? I am holding my opinion until after a few resposnses. Thank you for the input.


IMO - Sending 200 Japanese bombers escorted by 100 Zeros in early 1942 to turn Changsha, etc. into large craters is no more gamey than sending 200 B-24s escorted by 100 Corsairs to turn Mandalay, etc. into large craters in early 1943...

What it comes down to is that Players who want to game the system must remember not to whine when the system is gamed back at them later on...

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 10:29:48 PM   
Nomad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

I do not think that it is gamey. It is either Chunking or Changsha (however the hell you spell it) had the highest number of individual air raids during WWII. I was watching some show on the rise of Mao and they had some historical footage of the city burning etc...

Bottom line is that no matter what Japan does they will loose .... so why Allied fanboy's get soo upset I will never know.



Does my post indicate that I am upset? Keep your crappy remarks to yourself in the future. I was and am asking for opinions about this aspect of the game. I will mark down that you think anything goes then and it is not gamey.


????

My crappy remarks???

I am puzzled why you took my comments personally as no offense was intended. This particular issue I do not consider gamey .... you will note I did not mention you personally or by your forum name in my reply. By all means mark me down as whatever you please.......since I could really rather care less.

There are quite a few things that I do find 'gamey'....but let us remember this is a game. I think that Matrix is working on a great deal of things and each release seems to be better and better. I am sorry that you seem to have taken offense to my reply...however I stand by it. I would suggest that before you go off and attack other forum members that you re-read the code associated with this forum.. you will find that there is nothing in my reply that warranted your insulting behaviour. However when you read your reply....I believe it is something that is deserving of sanction.


Read the highlighted part. I find that to be a crappy response. I am not 'upset' and I am not an Allied Fanboy. In fact, much of this discussion is because I am going to be starting a new PBEM game as the Japanese and I am trying to find out how others think of some the options.


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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 10:37:15 PM   
spence

 

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IMHO,  a Japanese advance in 1941-42 seeking victory over the same China that stymied that victory in 1937-41 pretty much on its own (for whatever reasons or however they did it) seems kinda gamey to begin with.  I don't know much about that theater but my guess is that the Japanese were having difficulty maintaining their supply lines in the hinterlands and making use of what they'd already conquered.  What experience I have in PBEM (leave it alone against the AI) suggests that massing troops and taking land by the Japanese is more easily done than it would have been IRL.  Bombing resources and HI just aggrevates that situation.  If China was a bit harder for either side to "get going" I wouldn't mind the tactic of bombing by the Japanese.  

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 11:06:00 PM   
worr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bilbow

Bombing Chineese resources has always struck me as gamey because capturing them what what the Japanese were trying to do.


Actually, they weren't trying to do this since they settled into an acceptable stalemate in China and concentrated their efforts elsewhere in the war.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/3/2006 11:07:18 PM   
worr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

China that stymied that victory in 1937-41


Do you believe China stymied that advance or the IJA simply decided to advance elsewhere?

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/4/2006 1:47:23 AM   
AirGriff


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Yeah, my impression is that the Japs held up because of international pressure before the war. Then, when they mixed it up with the Allies they were too busy to commit to China what they needed to take it. The IJA finally told the IJN to kiss off around the time the allies closed in on the PI and that's when the Chinese offensive began in China, which was apparently quite successful. By then, though, the noose had tightened.

That's tough to simulate in the game since the Japanese probably could have squashed China in '42, but they obviously couldn't do that and tear into the Pacific and SE Asia at the same time. What if you made some kind of house rule that says if the Japs go for China aggressively (which could include strategic bombing of China) they have to lay off either SOPAC or SEA? I don't know, the details would have to get kind of deep.

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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/4/2006 1:58:15 AM   
Sneer


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both sides destroy industries too easily
there are many historical comments that industrial targets in in big cities were often not found
- due to heavy flak/clouds/smoke and other factors
in game if only bombers reach targets they almost always score few hits
allied in early 43 can level any place within 1 week time  - too easily / too fast
same for Japan but because of lack of heavy bombers too much lower extent
and back to question - it is not gamay to me as allied has even bigger possibility to play history-wise game and maul everything in range
air war in Burma - what war? - i haven't seen any long both -sides exhausting war in Burma in any AAR
always allied heavies mauling Japan  - 1 airfield out per week - only this - where are realism expecting allied fanboys ???


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RE: Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil? - 6/4/2006 3:21:15 AM   
erstad

 

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I typically play IJN, stock scenario.  My view is this:
-  I don't want to win the war by winning in China.  I'm not playing the game for the land combat.
-  However, I can't just let China be, barring some house rules.  It's way to easy to base Allied strat bombers in China, compared to real life.  Read about the difficulties the XX Bombers had in China, and compare it to the game. 
-  So, my goal in China is simple.  Try to keep it from ever being a large threat.  So, I'll try to kick some land butt in China to knock them back some, but I won't try to conquer all of China, or take Chungking, etc.  Likewise, I will strat bomb some of the Chinese resources, but it's not so I can take more of China, it's more to keep them starving as much as possible to keep large scale heavy operations out of China. 

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