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Combat Mission blows this game out of the water

 
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Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 6:47:51 PM   
Panzer76


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Ok, so it looks kinda neat, but how does it compare to Combat Mission?
I would say, it doesn't.

CM has more flexibility, WAY more units, is WAY more realistic, and has already estblished itself as the King of WWII tactical combat. Only thing I can think of is the campaign, and a campaign for CM is already on its way, so thats a moot point.

So really, what are we left with but a dumbed down copy of CM with less choices?

Am I missing something?

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 7:01:23 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Panzer,

We're not trying to remake Combat Mission. Doing that would be a longer project for certain.

So, in your opinion, since there's already a tactical 3D game you like no one else should make one? Do you apply this same argument to 2D games as well?

All of us are fans of Combat Mission and have played the heck out of it. We're not trying to replace it. However, the Koios Works team has done some great work on their previous games and this is a different approach to tactical 3D combat than CM.

There's no way to make a 3D Tactical WWII game that won't make people say "Hey, it looks like Combat Mission!" even if the game rules and gameplay are different. Fundamentally, 2D wargames look pretty similar too - map, counters, etc. but it doesn't mean there is only room for one 2D wargame design.

I think folks are going to have to open their minds a bit on this one. CM has been around for a while and has rightfully reigned supreme for 3D tactical WWII wargaming. CM will still be there after this release, but if you like 3D tactical WWII and are interested in trying a different approach to it, give WinterStorm a try. Moreover, if you'd like to support further alternate development into 3D tactical wargames, give WinterStorm a try.

Yes, we do have a campaign and it covers an area that has not often been covered, but allows both attack and defense for Germany and the Soviet Union. We also have a much more modern 3D engine and effects than the old CM engine can handle for those who want eye candy. We're aiming at somewhere between a Close Combat and a Panzer General, not a Combat Mission or a Steel Panthers. If you read our FAQ and my posts there, I think it will be pretty clear that apart from the 3D aspect and a few visual similarities in use of rubberband graphics for command and orders, we are not CM.

I hope you give WinterStorm a chance, you may find that it's fun.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 7:01:58 PM   
old man of the sea


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maybe you are missing something, maybe not,

E

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 7:13:49 PM   
Brindle

 

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my guess would be 'a brain'

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 7:32:42 PM   
Marc von Martial


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It was only a question of time ....

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 8:49:23 PM   
wodin


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Yawn..........some people.........

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 8:59:13 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hey, however much I might have preferred a different approach, he did ask a valid question. Lots of folks will perceive this title purely through a CM view and I'm trying to explain why it's not what they may think it is.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 9:07:34 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

It was only a question of time ....



Indeed.

All I'd say is that some us have room on our hard-drives for more than one game, and even more than one WW2 game. Like everyone else here, I suspect, I enjoy CM (I have all three games so far, and will buy the campaign if not the Syrian thing) but I don't see why that should preclude anybody from enjoying other games too.

I suspect (only that, I don't share Panzer76's apparent psychic powers) this will be rather more different from the Great God CM than the screenies suggest. I am certain, based on my experience of the previous Koios games, that whether this one is as "flexible" and "realistic" as CM or not it will be just as much fun to play. To many, perhaps (shock, horror), even more fun, maybe?

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 9:18:08 PM   
junk2drive


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I played CC2 and CC5 until I got too old for Real Time. I play all 3 CM's PBEM, several games going with a few friends, and occasionally vs the AI. I find CMBO to be the most fun because it is the least complex of the three. Other people would never go back to CMBO after playing CMBB and CMAK. I still enjoy Steel Panthers.
So far this game seems more like CC 3D. Time will tell.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 10:54:15 PM   
Panzer76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brindle
my guess would be 'a brain'


How is that so? Have I not raised valid questions? Seeing this is your second post on the forums, perhaps your 1st was of equal value?

Hey, Im all for more choices, more choices is good. But nothing Ive read about this game so far makes me believe that it will be better than CMBB. And, for *me*, then it just aint gonna fly, why play the 2nd best when you can play the best?

Only thing I can imagine is that people looking for a less complex game than CMBB will perhaps find this better. Like a introduction to the 3D wargamer genere. If that is the target audience, then clearly Im not in it.


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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 11:44:21 PM   
ravinhood


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Given that Koios has established a very good background on enhancing an AI, this game could very well be much better than any CM series game. To call CM's AI good? Hrmmmm, that's opinionated and individualistic there. Cause I found it rather dumb and stupid all too often, especially when it was WINNING!! If Koios can pull this off and make a challenging AI, at least it will be something of the WWII era and I won't have to worry about that Piece of crap Syria module Battlefront is putting out first for the CMX2 engine. Or Space Lobsters junk they have been talking about also. This game could very well fill the void. Though Combat Missions Campaigns will as well. And Steve over at battlefront doesn't seem to care about AI improvements for their games, everytime it's brought up he shuns it off like there are better things to put resources into. lol If the game has no challenging AI, it's a piece of crap IMHO. ;) Battlefront just seems to be on a "grab for money" now instead of giving us what they gave us in the past, now, they expect us to buy it all over again one module at a time? hahaha @$35 a pop no less. I probably will buy very few of the new modules. I really don't like donkey milkers.

I have Koios Tin Soldiers:Ceasar and I found it much more enjoyable and challenging that Rome Total Crap War. So, if they can make a game with a better AI than Combat Mission has even though it's just a portion of the war. I'll certainly give it a try and support them. As long as they don't move to PARADOX like Mad Minute did (traitors) lol

And as far as "tactical" games go, there can never be too many for me. Maybe too many of one era since WWII has been done to death, but, hopefully these guys at Koios will bring us other eras of interest after this. Civil War, Napoleonics, Medieval heck even a Civilization type game using their combat engine instead of the way civilizations combat is now. That will be the ultimate game to me Civilization with 3D wego combat. Take me the rest of my life to play a game like that out, but, it would be fun. ;)

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 11:46:15 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Panzer76,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer76
Hey, Im all for more choices, more choices is good. But nothing Ive read about this game so far makes me believe that it will be better than CMBB. And, for *me*, then it just aint gonna fly, why play the 2nd best when you can play the best?

Only thing I can imagine is that people looking for a less complex game than CMBB will perhaps find this better. Like a introduction to the 3D wargamer genere. If that is the target audience, then clearly Im not in it.


No, it's not an "intro" game either - it's very historical, but realize that CM is really a hyper-realistic game, even among wargames. Anyway, simple vs. complex are one question and fun is another. We hope to be able to be realistic but not complex and fun but not simplistic.

In any case, we don't expect everyone to like WinterStorm, but I hope you realize that variety is a good thing for wargamers and though it is a 3D tactical WWII wargame, it was never designed to replace CM so if you don't see it doing that, that's by design.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/21/2006 11:51:44 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Given that Koios has established a very good background on enhancing an AI, this game could very well be much better than any CM series game. To call CM's AI good? Hrmmmm, that's opinionated and individualistic there. Cause I found it rather dumb and stupid all too often, especially when it was WINNING!!


Please, let's not start this here from either side. There's no need to worry that WinterStorm isn't CM - we know that. We also like CM and if we can achieve a design that's different but as good in its own right that will be something to be very proud of. So, if you want to say that the CM AI didn't meet your expectations, fine, but don't get carried away with terms like dumb or stupid, that is unnecessary.

quote:

If Koios can pull this off and make a challenging AI, at least it will be something of the WWII era and I won't have to worry about that Piece of crap Syria module Battlefront is putting out first for the CMX2 engine. Or Space Lobsters junk they have been talking about also. This game could very well fill the void. Though Combat Missions Campaigns will as well. And Steve over at battlefront doesn't seem to care about AI improvements for their games, everytime it's brought up he shuns it off like there are better things to put resources into. lol If the game has no challenging AI, it's a piece of crap IMHO. ;) Battlefront just seems to be on a "grab for money" now instead of giving us what they gave us in the past, now, they expect us to buy it all over again one module at a time? hahaha @$35 a pop no less. I probably will buy very few of the new modules. I really don't like donkey milkers.


Ok, that was definitely CM and Battlefront-bashing. I don't want to see any of that here. If you want to criticize their games, please do it on their forum where they are likely to see and respond to your comments.

This is not an Anti-CM game. We are not a Anti-CM or Anti-Battlefront company. We respect their work and enjoy their games - who knows, perhaps someday we can convince them to do a joint project on something.

quote:

I have Koios Tin Soldiers:Ceasar and I found it much more enjoyable and challenging that Rome Total Crap War. So, if they can make a game with a better AI than Combat Mission has even though it's just a portion of the war. I'll certainly give it a try and support them. As long as they don't move to PARADOX like Mad Minute did (traitors) lol


Wow, you're on a roll... thanks for the compliments on TS:JC but please reign yourself in with respect to other games and companies.

quote:

And as far as "tactical" games go, there can never be too many for me. Maybe too many of one era since WWII has been done to death, but, hopefully these guys at Koios will bring us other eras of interest after this. Civil War, Napoleonics, Medieval heck even a Civilization type game using their combat engine instead of the way civilizations combat is now. That will be the ultimate game to me Civilization with 3D wego combat. Take me the rest of my life to play a game like that out, but, it would be fun. ;)


On that, we agree entirely! Please keep my comments above in mind when posting in the future. I don't want a flame war here.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 12:54:53 AM   
Zakhal


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I never liked CM that much but loved close combat and pz generals so perhaps this will be CM-done-right (for me of course ;) ). Challenging game (AI) and good campaign is all that matters. Rest is just extra.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 2/22/2006 12:57:58 AM >


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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 1:03:48 AM   
Mad Cow


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Have you played the game or something?

Pretty strong words if you have not.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 1:12:24 AM   
Mad Cow


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CM rules, as far as tac ww2 games go, imo.

However, I will be willing to give this game a shot, I just really hope there is ademo. IMO, you will have a hard time getting many CM converts without a playable demo.

Bashing BF isn't cool, they are a good company. CM:SF should be a great game, Battlefront, much like Matrix, is very important to the wargaming world.


The AI in CM does suck, but I don't see Steve blowing that off on their forums at all.


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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 1:33:32 AM   
ravinhood


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Hey Erik I'm just portraying a fanboy just like any other forum. lol Paradox fanboys do it. Combat Mission fanboys do it. Why can't we (I) do it for a Matrixgame developer I find to be ABOVE the rest? ;) I certainly can't say this new game is going to be better or worse, it's a new type of game. But, I can give HONEST FACTS from my own play of the other games I mentioned. It's not flaming, it's FACTS. The AI is pretty pitiful in both games, FACT for me. I'm not bashing, bashing would be untruthful statements, long tall tales. Things like that. RTW was total crap war to ME! FACT! I've never once said anything about any game that wasn't TRUTHFUL and FACT to me. I play them and then give my FACTUAL statements. Not even opinions cause they are FACTS.

Fact by definition is: a thing that has actually happened, something stated to be true.

Opinion by definition is: a belief "not" based on "certainty" but, appears or seems to be true.

See the difference?

Now if I said Panzer Command is going to be the best tactical WWII wargame ever made "that's opinion".
But, if I say the AI in RTW was total crap, that's FACT because it was and there are many others who would state the same facts. I actually played against it and I saw what happened and it was craptolia.
Of course saying Battlefront is "milking the donkey" to me is fact and opinion. No one would ever get me to believe differently. I certainly won't say they are the only ones doing it. Paradox is one of the greatest milkers of all times.

If you don't want the TRUTH to be heard or known about games, then just say that. But, don't try to cover it up by using terms like no bashing or flaming when the truth are facts.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 7:31:13 AM   
Panzer76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Given that Koios has established a very good background on enhancing an AI, this game could very well be much better than any CM series game.


Sure, that could be a seller, but we'll just wait how and see how that works out. I agree that the CM AI are lacking after you are getting better at the game. And esp when it's attacking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Or Space Lobsters junk they have been talking about also.


Hehe, this is just a running *joke* man :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Battlefront just seems to be on a "grab for money" now instead of giving us what they gave us in the past, now, they expect us to buy it all over again one module at a time? hahaha @$35 a pop no less. I probably will buy very few of the new modules. I really don't like donkey milkers.


Errr.. well, each one of these modules will be of similar scope as this game, so I can't see how one (BTS) is then crap, while another (this) is great?!



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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 8:26:04 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer76

Sure, that could be a seller, but we'll just wait and see how that works out.


What, as opposed to making comments like "Combat Mission blows this game out of the water" while PC:OWS isn't even in beta yet, you mean?


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Battlefront just seems to be on a "grab for money" now instead of giving us what they gave us in the past, now, they expect us to buy it all over again one module at a time? hahaha @$35 a pop no less. I probably will buy very few of the new modules. I really don't like donkey milkers.


Unfair, I think. That's a business model I've wanted to see for years from HPS, for example. Its way too early tell if $35 represents good value or not.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 3:28:23 PM   
Panzer76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer76

Sure, that could be a seller, but we'll just wait and see how that works out.


What, as opposed to making comments like "Combat Mission blows this game out of the water" while PC:OWS isn't even in beta yet, you mean?


No, from what I could see CM would blow this out of the water, and I still think so. I however asked about features that could help me think otherwise. Only thing raised so far that could sway me, is the AI. However, I remain very doubtful. Time will tell I guess.


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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 6:34:10 PM   
ioticus

 

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I agree with Ravenhood. The AI in CM was terrible and particularly craptastic on attack. I kept buying their games and hoping in vain that the AI would improve but it never happened. I played Tin Soldiers and was very impressed with the AI. I'm hoping Koios' skill in AI programming will carry over to Panzer Command and finally deliver a challenging single-player tactical WW2 game.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 6:36:59 PM   
elmo3

 

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I've played all three CM titles to death against the AI and in PBEM and had a blast doing it. Looking forward to this new title with a different approach.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 6:48:18 PM   
kipanderson

 

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Hi,

No one is more of a fan of CM than I, was a CM beta tester for the last two versions and followed it from ’99 onwards.

However… as Battlefront move on to the second generation engine that fact that others produce a game with some of the same look and feel as the first generation CM engine can only be good news for fans like me. I look at it as by the summer being a “product improved CMX1” over here to play with plus the second generation CM from Battlefront. All good news.

However, over on the FAQ thread I have posted about the dreaded “Absolute and Relative Spotting” issue which I hope Eric will answer.

Having been on CM so early I can also visualise how the graphics will improve from the Alpha version of Panzer Commander… it is all good news.

All the best,
Kip.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 7:28:20 PM   
Andreas1968


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Like Kip I am one of BFC's beta testers for CMBB and CMAK, and I still have several PBEMs on-going in both. I think this looks like a very interesting project, and I hope it works out well. Looks good from what is discernible at this stage.

Now, can we have a Balka screenshot?

All the best

Andreas

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/22/2006 7:39:26 PM   
Mad Cow


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CM's AI was terrible.

But with clever scenario design it could be overcome, I have played some very challenging AI scenarios.

Anyways, the AI in nearly every wargame I have ever played was pretty much subpar.

2 player is always where it is at for a real battle, which is why CM is loved so much byme and others even with the glaring AI problems.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/23/2006 1:18:29 PM   
ravinhood


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Same here, I'm not saying the Combat Mission series suks. By no means. I still greatly enjoy the engine. Ai's have always been an issue since the dawn of computer gaming. I'm just saying CM series AI just wasn't "perfect" heh. ;) Through difficulty adjustments I can make games either attack or defense or meeting that can sometimes turn out to be draws or a loss or a minor victory. Now, while the AI is still pretty horrible at tactics, certainly the ole "beating the odds" game is still there. That's really why I still enjoy the single player of the Combat Mission series. At least Battlefront does give the player many OPTIONS to increase difficulty, even if it is overwhelming odds. I've learned to accept this is a very good way to increase longevity of most games anyways. Give the AI more and the player less. Tactically it fails, but, numbers wise it can still put out a victory from time to time and draws. I feel I got a challenging game if I end up with only a minor or draw or a loss. Even if the Ai does suk. But, it has improved somewhat from CMBO, at least now it places edge of the map units whereas it didn't before.

My concern with the AI for Panzer Command is that it at least will have some program to hold positions if it's winning with only a few turns to go. Where objective flags will have less importance when it is winning. Cause that was the big issue with the CM series AI, even when it was winning, if there was an objective flag to be gotten, it would come out of entrenched postions to try to take them. Thus going from a winning situation to losing nearly everytime.

PC doesn't have to be Combat Mission. As long as the AI is as at least as good as in the other Tin Soldiers series of games. If PC turns out to have an excellent AI or at least a good one. Then we can start pestering them to give us FULL FRONTS like the Combat Mission series hehe.
I just hope they don't turn on us like Creative Assembly did us with Rome Total Crap War. After Medieval Total War was soooooooo good. I could just choke them for releasing that RTS kiddie clickfest that was RTCW. ;)

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/23/2006 3:51:26 PM   
wodin


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Panzer76,

The title to the thread you started was "Combat Mission blows this game out of the water".

This comment implies youve played BOTH games and CM beats it hands down. Our question to you is how can you have played both with Panzer Command isnt even in BETA yet?

You could have just asked "What are the differences between CM and PC"?

If I was the developer of a wargame and before it was even released people where slaging it off I would find it very demoralising.

If your a true wargamer then you should be supporting all indy developers, even if you dont buy the game at least post something positive on the forums. You may think CM will "blow it out of the water" but making a comment like this doesnt help anyone niether you or the developer.

REMEMBER PC game sales are dying in the mainstream and if we want our hobby to continue on the PC we need these indy developers to continue aswell as make the wargame community developer freindly.

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/23/2006 5:07:27 PM   
old man of the sea


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what Wodin said.....

E

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RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/23/2006 5:52:36 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Agreed on that as well!

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(in reply to old man of the sea)
Post #: 29
RE: Combat Mission blows this game out of the water - 2/23/2006 8:00:15 PM   
RyanCrierie


Posts: 1461
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline
Well, a little competition for the boys at Battlefront.com can't hurt. BFC hasn't really had any competition with their CM titles yet; so this will be good for all involved.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 30
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