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RE: We're still alive!

 
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RE: We're still alive! - 1/25/2006 5:13:46 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
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quote:

For me it's like Master of Orion II and 4X games upwards. It is fun to micromanage one or five planets, but is a pain in the a** to do it with 40!


You hit the nail right on the head! I have 2 buddies that will not play CoG for that reason and I must admit I do understand their point. I enjoy it and hope they can get the issues worked out.

(in reply to TexHorns)
Post #: 31
RE: We're still alive! - 1/25/2006 12:00:43 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
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quote:

The economic model has been driving me batty for the past couple of days, and has really ruined the game's enjoyment for me. IMO, they should scrap the system of trying to factor in diminishing returns and artificial resource ceilings in the name of "balance," and just let you produce and stockpile what you want. No other 4x type game that I play so harshly penalizes success as this one.


It is a not-so-random quote from the CoG forums.

Before we get into details

1. I dont want to get into a my daddy is stronger than yours bullying (CEiA vs CoG)
2. I mean no offense on anybody (developers, partiots etc.)

but

I think the CoG team has overreached themselves, they've tried to do something unseen before (and they managed to do it), but IMHO the result is not what they wanted. No wonder that there are discussions about incorporating many simplifications (e.ega EiA style super fast battle option among others). It is a very complex modell of something which resembles the 19th century, at least how the anglosaxons (UK and US) has seen and still see it (there is a distinctive difference how these countries and ROW approaches history).
Players have a feeling about historcal events (not always scientifically accurate), and they like to see events comparable or similar to them in the historical games they play. I believe CoG is an immensely fun game, but is not really representing 19th century.

CoG is a 4X game (juts like Master of Orion III) set in the 19th century instead of space, whith an approach to the whole issue like an american boardgame(boardgamegeek.com has more on US and European style boardgames). It simply offers too much freedom, compared to reality. It is a benefit in a fantasy (space, whatever) setting but a drawback in historical games. As I said before I am a history afficionado, and there were no such huge armies and such differences in the technical and other levels of development (at least none the states could overcome in 10-20 years).

IMHO most of the players (at least military history orientated ones) would like to face real choices of real decisionmakers. Hopefully cEiA will give us exactly that. Streamlined, pure strategy (and diplomacy) with a hint of economics (blockades, pirates and stuff).

Just my two cents.


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(in reply to YohanTM2)
Post #: 32
RE: We're still alive! - 1/25/2006 1:41:51 PM   
McGuire

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 11/2/2005
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And your 2 Cents are worth a couple hundred Dollars!

That's exactly the point!
- I want diplomacy!
- I want general strategy!
- I want basic economics!

That's it!
And there shouldn't be any lesser incoe, just because a regional leader has a headache.

_____________________________

There are only 10 types of people in the world!
Those who can read binary - and those who don't!

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 33
RE: We're still alive! - 1/25/2006 4:44:23 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JimMerson

Hey Boys...

I just realized Mashall Ellis is only three hours away from me. Just give me tha word and I can go rough him up a bit...

Thanks for the good word Marshall.

Jim Merson



Hey, no roughing up the developer. Marshall is a nice guy.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to JimMerson)
Post #: 34
RE: We're still alive! - 1/26/2006 9:27:56 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

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Marshall if you read this, and if I understood correctly that the dev'ment is in its last stages, would you be so kind to post some new screenshots about battles or a diplomatic maybe a production screen?

Just to warm up our hearts a bit.

THX in advance.



_____________________________


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(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 35
RE: We're still alive! - 1/26/2006 4:46:37 PM   
TexHorns

 

Posts: 243
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Ursa,

First let me say that there is nothing "personal" here, so I take no offense from your rational discussion of the merits and weaknesses of COG. In fact I appreciate the discourse. Although I don't necessarily agree with all your points, you have readily explained why you choose to wait for cEIA and not play COG. I will grant you the point that some things are a-historical about the game. I guess that is the difference between those who love it and those who choose not to play. The few a-historical things do not outweigh the true enjoyment of playing the game. What I do like about it is I am given the opportunity to make the decisions of a Napoleonic era European dictator. I run my country and make decisions regarding, provincial develpoment, provincial production, unit production, military upgrades ( there were differences in the adaption of military tactics between the European countries; not every country used the square formation right off; the Prussian army was still organized along the lines of Fred the Great and had not been updated at the time of Prussia's early campaigns against Nap.), diplomatic strategy, and most importantly military strategical, operational and tactical decisions. As stated previously, I disagree with the MM arguement as you can scale that to your liking. So other than armies being too large, I don't see the a-historical arguement.

Also, I want a game that allows for a different outcome than what was historically achieved. If all that is going to happen is a regurgitation of history, what is the point of playing. I want the challenge of doing better than my historical figure did. As for quick battles. Why do you want to quickly resolve the battles using a matrix and chits? What is better than being able to go to a tactical board and resolve the battle with your units and leaders. I regularly play hour long tactical battles and love it. I only quick battle small potato battles.

I think the bottom line difference is not whether COG is historically accurate or has system probelms, etc. The bottom line is that there is a group of EIA lovers who only want to play EIA and nothing else. Therefore they are holding out for the magic bullet, namely cEIA. In my opinion, no offense meant, but some of you have blinders on and can only see EIA and nothing else can ever be good enough. I truly hope you all are not disappointed when and if cEIA comes out. I hope it will be everything you guys hope and dream it will be. In the mean time, myself and tons of other guys are going to be conquering Europe Napoleonic style playing COG.

Oh and as for the qoute from the forumn; yes many new players post similar messages, myself included initially. But with time the nuances of the game become more apparent. The game takes time to learn and is challenging. Another reason why it is fun. Most of the people who posted as quoted, stick around, learn the game and are glad they didn't give up so easily. But what a person likes or dislikes is unique to each individual, so no personal offense taken if you or others choose to pass on COG. I guess I just hate to see fellow gamers miss out on something I think is awesome. But I respect your decision.

Peace.

_____________________________

We're gonna dance with who brung us.

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 36
RE: We're still alive! - 1/26/2006 8:43:24 PM   
ess1

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/13/2004
From: Newport, Shropshire, U.K.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexHorns

I truly beleive Marshall is doing the best he can. I just wonder if the EIA fanatics are more a help or a hinderance. I too will buy CEIA when it comes out, but I've stopped pineing away for it. COG is more than enough game to keep me distracted for a long time.

As to Marshall never staying in one spot, that would be too funny if there wasn't a hint of truth to it. Not that he really is. But the way the fanatics go after him on this forumn about rules, features, must haves etc, because by gosh they have played EIA for 100 years and only they know what is the best way to do things the EIA way, blah, blah, blah...it's no wonder the guy keeps a low profile now. It is also the reason that I stopped visiting this forumn on a reguler basis and only check in monthly.

I hope all the best to marshall, I just feel for the guy. Seems he is in a no win situation. And for now I play COG almost exclusivley. And those of you who aren't playing it because it's not EIA...too bad, your missing a great game.


I do not agree that COG is a great game. For me the poor pbem factor spoils it.

(in reply to TexHorns)
Post #: 37
RE: We're still alive! - 1/27/2006 1:22:57 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline
Thanks for your long answer Tex.
Well, I was and still am on the verge of purchasing CoG, but would like to see a final word on cEiA first (in the meantime MP/AI problems can be fixed). As I said before I see no problem with buying CoG, but only as plan B.

Of course I wont play a game which forces me to replay history and that only.

I'd like to play one which offers historical choices. Due to the 4x nature of CoG you can have turkish armies on par with french or british ones, which is ahistorical for a number of reasons. I cant say, since I dont know it yet, how cEiA will cope with it, I sincerely hope that it will keep the spirit of the boadgame.

As of deteiled battles I loved Master of Orion I+II, loved the detailed battles too, but after say 100+th action with each side sporting 2000+ ships it wasnt the same anymore. Not to mention the famous and decisive mistakes made by commanders dont occur if you are in charge of the last single regiment. I will probably buy Blackpowders BoN IMHO it will be more accurate.

While I wait I shoot up some russians an germans in CoD2, if I feel like Nappy I play the old BoN. Oddly enough its AI seemes to be a good one.

_____________________________


Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to TexHorns)
Post #: 38
RE: We're still alive! - 1/27/2006 4:01:46 AM   
JimMerson


Posts: 60
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
I agree with Tex as well. No I shall not "go after him" for several reasons, to include he is a fellow Texan, and to distract him would be to distract the game.

Keep up the great work and I will purchase a copy when the game is ready!!!

Jim Merson

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 39
RE: We're still alive! - 1/27/2006 11:18:44 AM   
Grand_Armee

 

Posts: 809
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
Many of you dog COG...some of you who haven't even bought it! It's a tremendous game. What did your mothers tell you when Brussel Sprouts sat before your young face the very first time?

You whine about micromanaging 40 planets. You set a state once and leave it there...it's not rocket science. If you don't want to improve it, no big deal. Nothing is making you. That state certainly won't fall off the map.

You whine about the AI. Because it's a program, not a learning mind it'll never be what you want. Nor can you please 300 guys with 300 different opinions. Opinions are like rectums my friends...everyone has one and they all stink but your own.

You whine about MP issues. How can you do that when you haven't even purchased it? Have you tried TCP/IP? No, I didn't think so. I've played guys from the around the world and had a blast. I still do. Have you thought of (purchasing and) helping on the open development forum? What? No, again? Why am I not surprised?

You read a few posts, and you whine.

If COG had an economic model like good old EIA you'd probably play through the entire Napoleonic campaign in an afternoon as one nation. If army construction was the same, ditto...because in good old EIA there was nothing to improve. And you won't have to wait for your two potential enemies who are plotting against you in the hallway.

Now, you have a chance to improve (and change history) and you fall back on the old "ahistorical" mantra. OH, no...Turkey can improve?(clasp your hands to the sides of your faces)...Heaven Forbid!

What will you say when you capture Moscow at the head of the French army that has more than 1/3 of it's effectives still in the ranks once CEIA is released? "Oh, I shouldn't have been able to do that...time to put this game in the trash"(shake your head because you've wasted another tank of petrol).

There's room in this world...and in my wargaming world...for both games. Good old EIA was my first wargame to love. I expect my affair with COG to last a long time. She certainly won't be set aside even if CEIA is a complete and perfect replica of the cardboard classic.

< Message edited by Grand_Armee -- 1/27/2006 11:30:03 AM >

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 40
RE: We're still alive! - 1/27/2006 3:28:53 PM   
McGuire

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline
@Grand_Armee

I think your reply was a little harsh, and more than a bit exaggerated.

e.g.
I actually do not think that a campain in cEiA can be played within one afternoon.
And why is that so?
Diplomacy. You can't handle that much diplomacy in such a short time. And from my point of view it's A (if not THE) gameplay of EiA.

And because you like the word, here it is:
Stop whining because some people like strategy games with another focus.

I don't like CoG. Bought it, played it, dumped it! And got the heck beaten out of me for spending the money (women are so cruel ).

Now I don't like the micromanagement - you say I don't have to do it. Well - I don't think so! There is no way to win the game (or I haven't found it yet) without the micromanagement.
But you surely know the game better than I do!

But in the end:
Keep on playing CoG. You like it - you play it.
I don't like CoG - so I keep on waiting for cEiA.


_____________________________

There are only 10 types of people in the world!
Those who can read binary - and those who don't!

(in reply to Grand_Armee)
Post #: 41
RE: We're still alive! - 1/27/2006 3:43:53 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline
Well I always try to be polite, and there are some who can always prove that I am not. The style (in this case of communication) defines the personality. Don't be offeneded (just a bit ), but I wouldnt like to be your neighbour Grand Armee.

I still preserve my right to be critical about anybody's wife or baby, of course keeping the rules of courtesy (let's say not openly criticizing her in a numerous audience). These can be ticked in my case. Please allow me to sound my opinion in a forum of another game (even if comparable one) maintaining

quote:


1. I dont want to get into a my daddy is stronger than yours bullying (CEiA vs CoG)
2. I mean no offense on anybody (developers, partiots etc.)


and

quote:

Well, I was and still am on the verge of purchasing CoG, but would like to see a final word on cEiA first (in the meantime MP/AI problems can be fixed). As I said before I see no problem with buying CoG, but only as plan B.


compared to your post
quote:

Have you thought of (purchasing and) helping on the open development forum? What? No, again? Why am I not surprised?


Please dont be read only.

For me (probably unlike the majority of the forum visitors) purchasing an original game is AN investment. I dont like games downloaded from warez pages for a number of reasons (problem with patches, missing manual, strong MP interest from my side etc.), but I've burned my hands with Medieval Total War and Uncommon Valor too (they failed to deliver what I expected). Both were fun for one or two months but for something worth almost 10% of my monthly income I expect more. It is not necessarily the games' or their developers' fault, maybe I should have read more about them. I still dream of a game tailored for my expectation, hoping that cEiA will be it.

As of my criticism. I have not run to any of the CoG forums like many have done it before (and will do I am positive), cursing the developers shouting worst game I've ever played/bought/seen stuff. In many cases I feel my critics is well in place (why have MM just to leave it off or as you said)
quote:

If you don't want to improve it, no big deal. Nothing is making you. That state certainly won't fall off the map.

Yeah it wont. But what is the whole point of having it if you dont use this option?

To sum up my opinion CoG is a great game (with its infacy problems), a good siumlation which RESEMBLES the 19th century through the glasses of a 21 st century reviewer, resembles, but is not it. And yes I want a game where I can conquer Moscow and even keep it, but the turks will sure have to help me by keeping the other half of the russian army busy! And NO I dont want a game (only if all other hope fails) where 258.000 french can land unhindered in UK and fights 455.000 english, half of which is a guerilla. NO I dont want a game where Turkey can be a naval power comparable to UK and a land power comparable to France.

I am sorry to say that, but the wolrd looks MUCH different if you are NOT in the land of the free, and home of the brave. I believe that you believe that everything can be changed, it is only a matter of will, organisation and resources, but in real world things cannot be turned upside down without grim consequences. I believe that it is fun to lead second rate powers to world dominance (giving every player almost even chances), but as a history teacher-to-be please allow me to be skeptic about these kind of approaches towards history. If you allow your view about the world to influence your judgement of historical events you will get very far away from reality.





< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 1/27/2006 6:53:53 PM >


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(in reply to Grand_Armee)
Post #: 42
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