Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (Full Version)

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JagdFlanker -> Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (6/21/2004 1:06:48 AM)



i thought i'd put an update up for the curious as i have been slowly researching and working on the mod. just in
case some get the idea from my other post that i'm screwing with the game in-depth with crazy ideas, i guess
i'll straighten out exactly what i'm attempting to do with this mod.

all i want to do is research all the units (including aircraft) with new stats that reflect as close as possible the actual
real-world capabilties of the units (well, as best i can...), then price them according to capibility for the
discriminating PBEM player. i really wanted to concentrate on making the player think twice about changing production
at any time, since i ensured that generally all the best units cost the same (or sometimes a tiny bit more) relitive to
a cheaper less capable unit. so changing production may get you a better unit that's twice as good, but you lose at least
a couple week's production PLUS it costs twice as much. there are no longer 'deals' if you produce one type
over another - all units now cost the same in regards to their capability. hopefully when i'm done the player who
doesn't touch their production through the whole game will perhaps have an ever so slight advantage over the
'production meddler'. i want to check all the factories too to make sure everybody gets reasonable production amounts
of anything thats produced - it might be nice to have the option of having a gentleman's house rule that disallows
either player to adjust production and get a little more historical eastern front campaign without any headaches!!

other than that i only plan on changing a couple minor things, like adding the rail line behind Voronezh and giving
the soviets a little break if they lose moscow by adding 15 resources to the Urals - now if they lose moscow
their resources go down to 95 or so and recapturing it will bring them above 100 again. it's bad enough to lose all
that heavy industry, and plus i don't think the sovs were short of resources during the war!! losing moscow in the
original version of WiR was supposed to be a big blow but now that germany has a relitively easy time of capturing it
i don't think it should be as much of a tide-turning event, espeially in any hard-played PBEM game!

another nice bonus i added is both sides have complete control af all their tanks - for germany that means the
R-35/S-35 in now shown in their pool, and the sov's can now use all their BT-5/T-37/T-28's in their pool! really, i can't
see why you shouldn't be able to do this in the first place - they're your tanks...

so, i ended up looking into all the aircraft just to see how much work it would be, and after checking it out in depth it
turns out the aircraft were quite messed up as well! i found 16 ikons the game doesn't use but should - for example
the three Il-2/Il-10 aircraft each have a different ikon, but in the game all 3 share just one ikon!! another example is
the Fw-190f has it's own ikon, but in the game it shares the Fw-190a ikon! i'v researched a lot of the aircraft and am
in the process of redoing those stats as well, which i will post at a later date. the only big changes of note are:

LaGG-3 s33 -> i find no evidence that this aircraft is any more capable than the LaGG-3 so i eliminated it. as far as i
can tell it only recieved some structural modification, so i see no need to include it.

sov fighter production -> well, this i really had to change because according to my research there are 3 production
trees, not 2 like the game has. here is the new flow:

Yak-1 > Yak-1 M > Yak-9 T > Yak-3
MiG-1 > MiG-3 > Yak-7 > Yak-9 > Yak-9 U
LaGG-3 > La-5 > La-5 FN > La-7

the Yak-1 M is new and comes into production in dec '41. it is not REALLY supposed to merge into the Yak-9 T, but as
it stands it is in production for 18 months so i figured a year of Yak-9 T production would bridge it's eventual upgrade
to the Yak-3. the prices for fighters are REALLY messed up now as i absolutly ensured that each new generation is
more expensive than the last to ensure price is equivilent to capibility, and hopefullydiscourage production fiddling. once
i post the aircraft stats you will understand what i mean, but the final generation of all 3 trees ALL COST 6!! i will give
the soviets extra fighter factories later in the war so that they can make up for the expense, but this was because the
Yak-1 M is prduced for so long i had to ensure it is worth your while to keep it in production the whole time. i guess
it seems strange at a glance, but i put A LOT of thought into this to ensure everything is balanced and i think it will
work really well once it's been tested.

Fw 190A -> i'v increased the price to 5 and manouver to 24 (Bf 109s are +1 too). now you'l think twice about
upgrading all your Bf 109 factories!! a difficult decision, as it should be....

He 177 -> i'v reduced it's manouverability down to 13 (Do 217 is 11, Ju 88 is 9) and am taking all the stats and
dividing them by 2 to represent it's 'teething problems'. still, even so it still has a range of 43 and a load of 90!!
of coarse, it'l cost ya too...

Bf 110/110G/410 series -> manouverability reduced to 16/18/20. just makes sense. i'd like to get rid of the stupid
late-war bomber intercept restriction for this class, but that's programming. however, perhaps i could put their slots
to the bottom of the dbase...

Ju 87D -> i put it at the bottom of the dbase so you can manually upgrade it now.

oh, and i can add that i changed the StuG Bn's to Jpz Bn's so you can manually upgrade those too, as well.

i guess that's all i'll reveal for now. here's the new organized aircraft ikons. each unit now has it's own individual
ikon making it easy to visually sort your aircraft. i played around with them quite a bit, as you'l notice, checking details
in my other sources to upgrade the aircraft accuracies. making new camoflage for different units was a blast!

top ikons - Germany and allies

Bf 109e/f/g/k, Bf 110/110g/Me 410, Me 262
Fw 190a/d/f, Ju 87/b/d/g, Hs 129, Do 17z
Do 217, He 111, Ju 88, He 177, Ju 52, MC-200/202/205
Mixed Fighters, Mixed Bombers
I see no reason to include the S.M.79, yet.

Middle ikons - USAAF
B-17, B-24, P-51, P-47, P-38

Bottom ikons - soviet airforce and lend-lease

I-15/16, MiG-1/3, Yak-1/1m/3, Yak-7
Yak-9/9t/9u, LaGG-3, La-5/5fn/7, Su-2
SB-2, Pe-2, Tu-2, Il-2/2m3/10, TB-3, Il-4
Hurricane II, Spitfire IX, P-40/47d, P-39/63 B-25, A-20

comments and corrections always welcome!


Electricity -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (6/25/2004 8:25:54 PM)

The Soviets were short of resources and production capabilities. They imported huge quanitities of aviation gasoline, steel and food from the USA. They're production of basics never recovered during the war years. Without Lend-Lease the Soviet people would have starved to death along with the Soviet Union, the figure of 1 lb of concentrated ration was imported for 6 million men of Red Army over the duration of the war.

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/7/2004 9:42:57 PM)

i guess i meant resources in game as opposed to the 'actual' situation, but that's pretty cool info!

anyhow i'm busy looking for a job so i havn't done a lot, but i guess i can mention a couple new things:

- the tank dbase is a little screwed: there is the ability to add more tanks, but the AT/arty/recon/inf units are in
the middle of the database right after the original tank slots and the game displays ikons in the order they are in
the database so any vehicles after the gun/recon/inf slots appear after the inf ikon in the game. so that looks a
little messy, and to make it worse any of those units in the later slots are un-upgradable once they are in their
Bn's except possibly by auto AI upgrade. there are currently only 2 units in the affected slots - the elefant and
the jagdtiger. the jagdtiger is too late in the war to matter, and the elefant:

- germany will not be able to produce elefants, but will get 30 elefants in each of it's 3 Jpz Bn's so will still have
them without factories. they will not be able to be manually upgraded, but considering it's the only unit to get
MORE powerful after my research i don't think they will take many losses!!

- the kv-2 is proving to be a small problem as it's only supposed to be in production until dec '41 and there's
nothing i can upgrade it to until summer '42. so i think i'm going to put the remainder of it's production run (331 total i
think) into the pool at the start and not have it produced at all - they'r not as powerful as in 3.3 and it's not like
germany will see them until the battle for moscow anyways!

- i'v been casually upgrading the ikons and they are looking MUCH better! a year ago i couldn't tell the diff between
a T-34 and a Pz IV, but now i can almost figure out the diff models of each in pics!! here's the T-34's...


JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/10/2004 5:36:14 AM)

wow, i didn't know i had it in me!!


crusher -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/10/2004 10:31:42 AM)

looks real good when will your mod be ready to try?

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/11/2004 3:43:04 PM)

well, i keep starting to work on the data part but then i end up getting sucked into editing ikons, being it's so fun!! but i hope to have my preliminary version posted in the next couple weeks. unfortunatly the new ikons will not work with 3.3 since they are ordered differently, but after finishing this mod i will post an upgraded 3.3 ikon set.

unfortunatly the game stretches the ikons up by 30-50% so the above posted ikons do not look near as good in the game and i ended up having to cut the height down by 1 pixel to make it look better. i guess my original ones would make nice desktop ikons!

i did make this hummel to use as the german arty ikon, but i'm not sure if it looks appropriate since really it didn't enter the war until early '43. mabe i'll throw it in the preliminary version, see how it looks...


JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/13/2004 4:52:06 PM)

got some great hard numbers on lend-lease, so instead of starting production at 1 and slowly working up i calculated the amount of time it is 'in production' and divided it with the totals for it's production per week. when it's 'production run' is over i know how to 'turn off' the factory so the numbers can stay about historical. i'm not sure why the P-47D is included, but since it's so late in the game i'm not going to worry about that for now. i find it odd in 3.3 the P-39 comes in so late when it started arriving soon after barbarossa started!

NAME - DATE AVAIL - TOTAL SHIPPED (after losses in transit)
Hurricane II - 7/41 - 2952
Spitfire IX -- 1/44 - 1331

P-40 --- 1/42 - 2397
P-47D - 6/44 - 195

P-39 - 8/41 -- 4719
P-63 - 12/43 - 2397

B-25 - 1/42 - 862
A-20 - 1/43 - 2908

Valentine III - 7/41 -- 4780 -- 86 weeks
M3 Grant ----- 3/43 -- 1386 -- 28 weeks
M4C Sherman 10/43 - 4100 -- 78+ weeks

i also noticed the PzJg-Ib is no longer in production at the start of the game so that factory will be put to StuG production.

Chairman -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/13/2004 10:11:09 PM)

Looking realy good.[&o]

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/26/2004 2:57:39 PM)


JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/28/2004 5:01:48 AM)

here she is, folks!


if you have any 'detail observations' feel free to spill yer guts!

crusher -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/29/2004 3:28:57 AM)

hi: downloaded it and will give it a try i will let you know how it goes

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (7/29/2004 2:51:13 PM)


i just put version 0.11 up - the german ikons were crooked and i put an extra map up for those who would prefer the Karelia-Kola and the Crimea-Caucasus rail line included in their game.

Rasputitsa -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/8/2004 10:20:20 PM)

Impressive amount of work, I like the new icons. Not sure about the defence bonus for Brest-Litovsk. The main fortified zone of the Brest-Litovsk region was taken by 24th June 1941, the citadel in the town itself held out until 23rd July. I would not minimise the courage of the defenders of the fortess, but they had been driven into the tunnels and basements of the castle, whilst the German forces poured past into the depths of Soviet territory. Guderian said that the defenders of the fortress denied him the use of the railway crossing 'for a few days' and I think you would have to consider that, historically, the Brest-Litovsk WIR hex was under German control after the first week's move. The defenders of the citadel no longer had the heavy weapons to affect the contol of the area. At the operational level that WIR simulates the defence of the citadel was not operationally significant, heroic though it certainy was.[:)]

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/9/2004 4:52:32 PM)

stinkin confuser crashed last week - good thing i put my editing tools with the mod post on my brother's hard drive or else i may have lost EVERYTHING!!

anyhow, last monday i bought a cool hardcover book on the first 7 days of barbarossa for $15 and it did mention there that brest-livost was only held for a week, which is all the sovs can hold it for in the game. all i did was put their readiness up to 99%/entrenchment 9 so with a little extra effort it could fall first turn - the only thing is you have to use airpower to dislodge them and usually you are using all of it for airfield attacks! i probrably will tone it down in the future, once i'm up and running again...

Rasputitsa -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/9/2004 7:33:24 PM)

Sorry to hear about the crash problem, know how you feel, I had my machine scrambled after downloading an upgrade from Microsoft. I would very much like a copy of your icon set for standard 3.3 when its ready. I have done some map and rail adjustments with some of Possum's ideas and other information from reference sources, but I am not sure how to post it in the Forum. It is difficult to use the existing rail shapes to introduce new rail lines, so I use town symbols at rail junctions so that they fit into the map better. The towns represent real places, but they have no significance in the game as all the city slots are taken.

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/10/2004 5:50:24 AM)

the one thing to remember about adjusting the map is that on the first turn all newly added rail has to convert. so, if you do any major changes i believe in order to start a game with it pre-converted you may have to run the game, save it, rename it obwir, then re-adjust the units in the database (with the excel program) back to it's original turn 1 status AND reset the date. i'v thought about trying it for fun, but never did it yet so there may be some more to it. i'm pretty sure that's how possum did it, but just a guess...

i will add that i have (or had!) many maps of russian rail lines during WW II and actually WiR is (for all intents and purposes) fairly accurite in it's representation. that was one of the things that disappointed me about possum's map - it's just seems way off to me(like the murmansk-moscow rail line...). however, i'd like to in the far future steal his excellent unit OOB, simplify the afv/air units to what i have in my mod, and then insert his OOB into the rest of my mod. it'd be fun. just to see how accurite the possum mod was i did check to see which units he had the elefants in, and they are different than what i'm sure they should be. not to say the rest is also inaccurite, because i bet the majority of it is!!

Rasputitsa -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/10/2004 1:56:46 PM)

Any additional railway does take a couple of turms to come into use, but I just count that as part of the game. Economy working up to war footing, or something like that. One of the railways North of Moscow was only completed just before the German attack, so historically it might have taken some weeks to be fully operational. The problem with reference maps is that if you put on all the railways that are shown, you end up with almost complete supply and railways lose their strategic significance. Again, one of the railways North of Moscow is referred to as single track and low capacity, but if it's on the WIR map you could push a whole week's East Front rail capacity down it, which historically it could not have managed. On the scale that WIR works I think you need to have the outline of the historical rail net, rather that an attempt to reproduce every track and branch line. If I could send my sf.map copy to you I would welcome your comments. On the point about 1941 initial Soviet defence bonus, if it has not already been done, how about a scenario with Stalin believing his spies and gets a copy of the Barbarossa plan. Using the delay in launching Barbarossa (orginal planned date was 15th May 41) to fully entrench and moblise the frontier armies. All Soviet armies made up to full strength and known German attack points given a double line of defence. Preparations reported to Hitler, but he attacks anyway. Kursk 1941.

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/10/2004 2:32:20 PM)

i tried raising readiness in the soviet front line for fun a while back (for the human german vs sov ai addition) and it stopped the german attack COLD, making it very difficult for them to advance at all the first turn. i think a scen like that would only be good to handicap an excellent german player vs a lousy sov player (like the ai), but overall the problem is it would allow the sov's to save a much higher percentage of their frontier forces giving the sov's a huge pile of extra tanks, etc to use for their winter offensive.

if you want to send me your maps i'm at bcgnkirov$yahoo.ca, replace $ with 'you know what'. i'm still not up yet so it'l take a week to reply! i think it's 'buy new hdd' time!

Denniss -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/19/2004 7:28:29 PM)

Some small suggestions :
If there's enough space in the database add a Fw 190A8 with +1 in dogfight and +2 in cannon rating to represent newer FW190 with better engine and 2x 13mm MG instead of 2x 7.92mm MG . This plane should be available mid 1943 . FW190A -> A8 -> D

The Me110G should have a little more range as they usually had drop tanks installed - somewhat similar to Me410 but a little below

The gap between the Me109G and Me109K is too big - there should at least be a 109G6 available at mid 1943 with maneuver equal or better than Fw190A and +1 cannon rating to represent one 30mm cannon and 2x 13mm MG

Is there enough space for a Ju-188 ?
-> Stats similar to Do-217 but cost 8 as it's an improved Ju88

Is it possible to remove the Hs129-> Fw190F conversion ?
Personally I like to have some tank destroyers on hand and I need the Fw190F to kill tanks,too .

Denniss -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/19/2004 8:03:17 PM)

Some other thing :

Spitfire IX should be a little better then FW190A but not as much as your table suggests .
Me109K should be superior to Spitfire IX and not equal - equal/better than Fw190D and equipped with 30mm cannon + 2x13mm MG
The P47 looks a little underrated - should be equal to Fw190A
The P38 should be better than P40 but less than P47 - should be equal to Me109F or one point less
The load difference between B17 and B24 looks a little small - shouldn' the gap be a little bigger ?
Are you really sure the Yak1M is better than Me109E ?
-> I'd say equal
Shouldn't the PZ-IIIJ/60 and the III-M have the same attack ratings ?
Maybe the JPzIV/70 has one defensive point too much - armor was not as big/good/sloped as Panther's armor

Where dos the huge Me262 cannon rating come from ?
-> counted with R4M AA-rockets ?
AFAIK "only" 4x30mm cannon

Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 7:11:20 AM)

GO Baby GO!!!!![;)][:)][:D][:)]

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 3:52:21 PM)

wow, you seem to know your aircraft!! as far as manouver ratings go most of it involved guessing and doing a lot of reading on the net and finding comments that said one aircraft was as or slightly more manouverable than another, etc. other than that i had to 'trust' that the original stats were more or less correct. what i wanted to do was find a boardgame or a turned based air combat game which would have some solid stats i could base all the aircraft around, but i couldn't find any, particulary for the eastern front. what i will do in the near future is take your aircraft comments as a basis and do some additional research to recalculate the stats to something more 'solid'. thanks for the info - it really helps!!

as for the comments i can answer:

extra new aircraft - i want to avoid adding new aircraft to keep things as simplified as possible. i will look at your suggestions to see if those aircraft are a vast improvement over the previous models, but i tried to use the average best stats for all the most produced model(s) for each individual aircraft as the basis for the stats i used. so my Fw 190A is actually likely based somewhat around the A8 already, but off hand i'd have to re-check what i did. In a previous post 6 months ago in another mod thread i had comments of the like that the Ju-188 is not a good enough upgrade to the Ju-88 to make it worth including, and upon further review i agreed. i will re-evaluate when i redo the aircraft stats again - my research for the aircraft side of things is actually not as thorough as the tanks side and i will be rechecking my own work in the future to ensure everything looks right. when i get obssesed with something i go waaaay 'too far' with it!

Hs 129 -> Fw 190f - the Hs 129 was only fully produced for the 1 year or so and the Fw 190f starts production about a year later so it just so happened to work perfectly in regards to production times. besides, there's also the Ju-87g in production which is at least as good!

Me 262 - yes, it's cannon rating includes rockets (1/2 point each). i decided that since it comes so late in the game and would only likely be going after bombers anyways, so it should keep it's high cannon. anyone ever play a '41 campaign to mid '44? that would be pretty fun, as it almost doesn't seem possible!! in the future i do have to change all the other scenarios if i want ANY chance of this mod becoming 'official', though...

Pz IIIj/60 and the IIIm - i know they both have the same gun, but i took the stats from combat mission:barbarossa to berlin and they also account for crazy stuff like better ammo, etc. but in the end the decision for game's sakes is that it should be worth your while to build all the Pz III's so i think the IIIm deserves to have slightly better stats than it's predicessor to make it a worthwhile upgrade. i will look into it later, though, to make sure.

JgPz IV/70 & Panther - good eye!! actually the Panther is supposed to be 1 def point more (with slope it has 125mm or armour, rounded up), but i had to round it down in this one case to give it less power than the Tiger. i also had to give the Tiger a +1 def to give it more power than the Panther and have a reason to make the Tiger more expensive. it is supposed to be the 'heavy' tank, after all!


Josans -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 5:05:16 PM)

Really you are doing an excellent work[&o]


JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 5:23:34 PM)

thanks josan!! hopefully i'll have the pleasure of getting my ass kicked by you in the near future!!

i forgot to note i noticed my first dbase mistake - the StuG IIIb currently upgrades to the Nashorn so i'll have that fixed saturday. geez, thought i caught all the typo errors...

Josans -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 5:33:54 PM)


ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

thanks josan!! hopefully i'll have the pleasure of getting my ass kicked by you in the near future!!

i forgot to note i noticed my first dbase mistake - the StuG IIIb currently upgrades to the Nashorn so i'll have that fixed saturday. geez, thought i caught all the typo errors...

A challenge?[;)] Sounds good...

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 5:52:01 PM)

i sent you a pvt msg!


Josans -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 6:07:29 PM)


ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

i sent you a pvt msg!


Oops![&:] Im ready if you are.[:@][:)]

Denniss -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/20/2004 7:47:13 PM)

If it's too much work and testing then why not replace the ME109K with the improved Me109G6 and 25 or 25 maneuver and cannon 9?
The Me109K comes too late to be effective and then there's the Fw190D to play with

If there's no free plane slot why not remove the MC-200 and give Mixed Fighters a +1 ?

I like to use Me110G/Me410 as bomber killer so I prefer to have at least one tank-destroyer without upgrade path .
AFAIK Ju87 to Fw190F is/was somewhat hardcoded but the Hs129 was free of this ...

Just another question : Should the Ju87B range a little greater ?
The Ju87 "Tankbuster" was based on the Ju87D so range should not be so short but must be shorter then the D-model

Shouldn't all planes have at least a load of 1 to represent attacks with MG-fire ?

Ju188 : More load + more range + more/better defensive weapons + better armor/durability .
Should be a good upgrade path for Ju88 production .
-> Prsonally I like to streamline production thus building only one or two different bomber types and not 4 or 5 - the same with fighters (mostly Fw190 with some 109)

JagdFlanker -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/21/2004 4:31:53 AM)

mr denniss, i tried to send ya an email but the address is no longer valid. give me a ring:

bcgnkirov!yahoo.ca (replace ! with you know what)

Denniss -> RE: Flanker Mod 6.22.41 (8/22/2004 1:56:34 AM)

Hmmm - Mail should be OK but your mail may be caught by SPAM-filter ....
Changed to my other mail adress now .

Is there anything special you need/want from me ?

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