Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (Full Version)

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Joel Billings -> Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 7:21:14 PM)

We're testing out some changes to the Assault HQ rules now. Thanks for all those that participated in the discussion on the forum. There are other changes being worked on as well, but since this was a hot topic, I thought I'd give you info on where we came down on this. Players can use these for house rules until they come out. The current plan is for 1.01.09 to become official within the next week or so. We expect that a 1.01.10 beta will go out within a few days of the 1.01.09 (this has full in-game scaling and a few more bug fixes and data changes). We are currently testing a 1.01.11 version with the assault HQ changes, but I can't say how soon it will actually go out. There are several other things being tested in this version, and it's too early to give a release date for this. However, the Assault HQ rules are set, so you can start using them voluntarily in your own games if you want to. Since 1.01.10 fixes it so that AHQ bonuses are not given out to units that are in overloaded or out of command range units (as per the rules), it's important that you not overload AHQs. If you house rule the changes, you need to agree to live within the new command point maximum values. I realize this involves some math and it will be much better when a version is released with the changes properly coded.

That said, here are the new rules:


o The command point multipliers for HQs in Assault HQs are now:
Date Axis Army Axis Corps // Soviet Front Soviet Army&Corps
1941 1.34 1.17 // no bonus no bonus
1942 1.34 1.17 // 1.10 1.10
1943 1.34 1.17 // 1.34 1.25
1944 1.34 1.17 // 1.67 1.34
1945 1.34 1.17 // 1.67 1.34

o Limits on maximum number of Assault HQs are now:
Date Axis Soviet
1941 4 2
1942 3 2
1943 3 3
1944 2 4
1945 2 4

Why did we make these changes? Basically we bought into the idea that the Soviet army was not in a position to use larger formations very early, and it was only as time went on they were able to successfully employ much larger fronts. Note, in late 42 the Western Front was massively overloaded. That didn't go so well for the Soviets. We also agreed that the German AHQs didn't need as much of a Command Point boost as we had given them. We still wanted them to be able to form AHQ's as large as Guderian's without penalty. We also agreed that the max number of AHQs could stand to be reduced some.

Another upcoming change we will be making before the 1.01.11 (or later version) goes to the public is we will be changing the requirement for units to be able to disband, go to the reserve or to another active theater box. The unit will be required to be on a connected rail hex that is not within 8 hexes of an enemy unit. This is another rule that players can agree to house rule if they wish until the changes are coded.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 8:04:24 PM)

Thank you much for Everything. Those are all very welcome updates and thank you for listening to all that have contributed :)




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 8:06:06 PM)

Curious, how will that affect games already in progress? When updated the changes take place so need to plan accordingly?




jubjub -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 8:08:43 PM)

How should we round the command capacity? For example, a German corps has 9 CC normally, multiplied by 1.17 is 10.53. This should be rounded up to 11?




Joel Billings -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 8:18:33 PM)

Always truncate down the numbers. So 9x1.17=10. The changes will impact games immediately once the revised exe is used. The only thing it won't do is reduce the number of AHQs if over the new max.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 8:19:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Always truncate down the numbers. So 9x1.17=10. The changes will impact games immediately once the revised exe is used. The only thing it won't do is reduce the number of AHQs if over the new max.


Thank you!




AlbertN -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 9:53:55 PM)

Glad to hear - we'll see how things pan out.
I think it's not enough of yet for the Soviet bonanza, but a gradual approach is positive in general than mighty drastic changes.




loki100 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 9:58:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Curious, how will that affect games already in progress? When updated the changes take place so need to plan accordingly?


doesn't make a huge difference for the Axis side, an Assault army now has 39 CP compared to 45 before (this is for the 1943 allowances). So its enough to remove most excess but you can get most of your formations under full command.

The loss will hit the Soviets (which is as desired)




jubjub -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/21/2021 11:30:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Curious, how will that affect games already in progress? When updated the changes take place so need to plan accordingly?


doesn't make a huge difference for the Axis side, an Assault army now has 39 CP compared to 45 before (this is for the 1943 allowances). So its enough to remove most excess but you can get most of your formations under full command.

The loss will hit the Soviets (which is as desired)


Both sides got their assault HQ's nerfed quite heavily, and the axis lose more assault capacity in '41 than the Soviets do - both nominally and relatively. However, these benefits are more important for the Soviets due to worse leaders and the artillery nerf for non-assault HQ's. They also reap more of the benefit from CPP generation since they are typically end on friendly soil (and start from 0 CPP).

Overall, I think it's a buff to the Axis in 1941 and 1942, but it's not as clear cut as it may seem. No idea about 1943 and onward.



Axis and Soviet Assault HQ CC by year (before and after):


-----------------------------------
1941: 270 : 240 => 156 : 144
1942: 225 : 360 => 117 : 158
1943: 180 : 480 => 117 : 288
1944: 135 : 500 => 78. : 480
1945: 90. : 620 => 78. : 480


Ratios - Axis / Soviet assault command capacity (before and after):

-----------------------------------
1941: 113% => 108%
1942: 62.5% => 74.1%
1943: 37.5% => 40.6%
1944: 27% => 16.3%
1945: 14.5% => 16.3%

*note, 1943-45 values may be off, since I didn't account for any changes in army/front size.

========================================================
There is also the possibility for the axis player to retain up to all 4 of the assault HQ's if they never demote them, while the Soviets don't have this ability. My strategy going forward will likely be to demote panzer groups in novemeber to build forts, and promote all 4 again in december and retain the assault HQ bonuses through 1942. If the Axis retains 4 Assault HQ's in '42, they can have as much as 99% of the assault HQ command capacity as the Soviets in '42. In this case:

-----------------------------------
1941: 270 : 240 => 156 : 144
1942: 270 : 360 => 156 : 158











MarkShot -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 3:29:42 AM)

I have no idea how this will work out, but I wanted to say thank you.

I don't like house rule aka "something is broken and developers won't address it" I find it destroys immersion especially in SP (exclusively how I play).

It is important to know that the conversations are being listened too both for game quality/feel, and capturing the historical sense of the Eastern conflict.

Thank you.




chrispanton -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 10:58:06 AM)

Maybe I'm reading/calculating wrong but for the Axis at least it seems like there were 6 x 45CP for total 270Cp in Assault HQ, now there will be 4 x 36CP for 144CP. That's potentially 126CP or 63 division no longer under axis army level command when particularly in the south for 11th and 17th Armies I tend to struggle as axis to get divisions under the command structure, and I don't tend to run many split as regiments. I guess there will be a lot more corps reporting direct to Armygroup or OKW level to make this work?




panzer51 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 2:15:12 PM)

quote:

Another upcoming change we will be making before the 1.01.11 (or later version) goes to the public is we will be changing the requirement for units to be able to disband, go to the reserve or to another active theater box. The unit will be required to be on a connected rail hex that is not within 8 hexes of an enemy unit.


Why 8? Seems excessive. I think 4 would be more than enough (120km give or take)




loki100 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 2:44:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

quote:

Another upcoming change we will be making before the 1.01.11 (or later version) goes to the public is we will be changing the requirement for units to be able to disband, go to the reserve or to another active theater box. The unit will be required to be on a connected rail hex that is not within 8 hexes of an enemy unit.


Why 8? Seems excessive. I think 4 would be more than enough (120km give or take)


you do understand the map scale? 4 hexes is a fair bit < 120km




Karri -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 2:48:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

quote:

Another upcoming change we will be making before the 1.01.11 (or later version) goes to the public is we will be changing the requirement for units to be able to disband, go to the reserve or to another active theater box. The unit will be required to be on a connected rail hex that is not within 8 hexes of an enemy unit.


Why 8? Seems excessive. I think 4 would be more than enough (120km give or take)


Fringe cases like almost closed pockets, such as the Southern Front during the first few turns.




Joel Billings -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 2:57:44 PM)

Yes, that's why we wanted to move it back to 8 hexes. Most units can reach this limit even if on the front line (except in heavy mud), in one turn. The fact that some units won't be able to do that, is considered a beneficial side effect that would mostly hurt the Soviets. Given the general feeling re game balance, we think this is a positive.




panzer51 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 2:58:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

quote:

Another upcoming change we will be making before the 1.01.11 (or later version) goes to the public is we will be changing the requirement for units to be able to disband, go to the reserve or to another active theater box. The unit will be required to be on a connected rail hex that is not within 8 hexes of an enemy unit.


Why 8? Seems excessive. I think 4 would be more than enough (120km give or take)


you do understand the map scale? 4 hexes is a fair bit < 120km


8X10X1.6=128km. No need to be rude and condescending.




loki100 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 3:00:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

quote:

Another upcoming change we will be making before the 1.01.11 (or later version) goes to the public is we will be changing the requirement for units to be able to disband, go to the reserve or to another active theater box. The unit will be required to be on a connected rail hex that is not within 8 hexes of an enemy unit.


Why 8? Seems excessive. I think 4 would be more than enough (120km give or take)


you do understand the map scale? 4 hexes is a fair bit < 120km


8X10X1.6=128km. No need to be rude and condescending.


with all due respect, what on earth is that calculation meant to represent? 8 hexes - 80 km? As above the reason is this is a big enough distance to make it unlikely that units in semi-encirclement can disappear to the reserve.




GibsonPete -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 3:02:45 PM)

Thank you for this. I predict it will neither harm or benefit one side over the other. That said, I predict certain fans will claim otherwise. It will, IMHO, make a great game better.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 3:17:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Yes, that's why we wanted to move it back to 8 hexes. Most units can reach this limit even if on the front line (except in heavy mud), in one turn. The fact that some units won't be able to do that, is considered a beneficial side effect that would mostly hurt the Soviets. Given the general feeling re game balance, we think this is a positive.


This has been needed for a very long time, even back to the WITE1 days. Excellent addition :)




panzer51 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 3:22:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Yes, that's why we wanted to move it back to 8 hexes. Most units can reach this limit even if on the front line (except in heavy mud), in one turn. The fact that some units won't be able to do that, is considered a beneficial side effect that would mostly hurt the Soviets. Given the general feeling re game balance, we think this is a positive.

Thank you Joel, I understand




Aurelian -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 5:05:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Yes, that's why we wanted to move it back to 8 hexes. Most units can reach this limit even if on the front line (except in heavy mud), in one turn. The fact that some units won't be able to do that, is considered a beneficial side effect that would mostly hurt the Soviets. Given the general feeling re game balance, we think this is a positive.


This has been needed for a very long time, even back to the WITE1 days. Excellent addition :)


Yes. And the change to AHQs looks good.




Zemke -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/22/2021 6:52:48 PM)

Good news!

This process will continue for the life of this game, at least as long as they support it. Remember every change has 2nd and 3rd order effects that will not be known till even more data comes in. But, this is a positive move.




GibsonPete -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/23/2021 1:01:55 AM)

"Yes, that's why we wanted to move it back to 8 hexes. Most units can reach this limit even if on the front line (except in heavy mud), in one turn. The fact that some units won't be able to do that, is considered a beneficial side effect that would mostly hurt the Soviets. Given the general feeling re game balance, we think this is a positive."

I appreciate this change as much as the Assault HQ. Thanks again Joel.




jlbhung -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/24/2021 4:00:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

That said, here are the new rules:

o The command point multipliers for HQs in Assault HQs are now:
Date Axis Army Axis Corps // Soviet Front Soviet Army&Corps
1941 1.34 1.17 // no bonus no bonus
1942 1.34 1.17 // 1.10 1.10
1943 1.34 1.17 // 1.34 1.25
1944 1.34 1.17 // 1.67 1.34
1945 1.34 1.17 // 1.67 1.34

o Limits on maximum number of Assault HQs are now:
Date Axis Soviet
1941 4 2
... ...


I wonder what is the purpose of allowing Soviet side to have 2 Assault HQs in 1941 if they have no bonus. Does the Assault HQ still retain the penalty of max fort level of 1? If so, why should the Soviet side want to use Assault HQs if it will have only penalty and no bonus??

I do not agree totally with the proposed changes and do not wish to argue on it. I also think different people will have different views on the appropriate level of bonus in different period. I wish that the CP bonus be modable by the Editor.






loki100 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/24/2021 6:15:16 AM)

you still retain the 3*CPP bonus, just you can't extend the Command Capacity of the relevant HQs

quite a gain, when (a) you are limited to level 1 forts unless in contact; and, (b) have other commands that can (& should) be the force actually in contact - so you still have a strong defensive line




MarkShot -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/24/2021 7:50:20 AM)

Loki,

I assume these rules will be built into the engine and apply to all scenarios which come with the game?

I had been playing road to Leningrad. Although I had put 85% of the AGN under the 4Pz ASHQ, I could have easily afforded to purchase others at 10 AP per HQ.

So, I hope this is going into the engine itself (all global data). Unlike how a "no sudden death" was simply resolved without a game option, but a separate scenario.

Thanks.

PS: Excuse me if this should have been addressed to Joel. I assumed you are a beta and authorized to discuss any game functionality already in the public domain.




loki100 -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/24/2021 8:32:34 AM)

yes, its in the beta patch we are currently testing - see the vs AI AAR I am doing as I discuss what this looks like in practice.

When that is released, not sure.

I understand the intent is to release the current public beta as an official patch first (since some players don't like to use betas etc and that has 90% of the scaling work), I guess some variant of what I (& others) are currently testing will then be available fairly soon after that

Roger




MarkShot -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/24/2021 8:53:40 AM)

Roger,

So far, I have only played scenarios.

The Chinese believe in reincarnation. I am waiting for my rebirth so that I have time to play the '41 Campaign. [:)]




Joel Billings -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/24/2021 2:18:39 PM)

News on a few items. First, yesterday Pavel who is working on the editor now proposed putting the AHQ rules (max number of AHQs and command point multiplier) into the scenario data. That will allow us to alter individual scenario files in the future to limit the number of AHQs in small scenarios. It will also allow players to use the editor to change the rules if they want to. We all agreed that would be a good thing to do. It will assume the default values in existing scenarios, but would then be modifiable. Since the editor work is a big all-inclusive editor upgrade, it will likely be several months before this makes its way to out in an update.

Second, now that the 1.01.09 version has been made official, we expect a 1.01.10 version to go out next week with the last of the in-game scaling. It will be the version after that that will contain the AHQ and disband/to TB changes. I can't say how soon that next update will be released, but it should be within weeks, not months. That version is likely to contain some tweaks to ground combat as well.

So eventually with the changes, AGN in RtL would only be allowed 1 AHQ, and it will only have 36 CP. Of course, that's still quite a bit, but this should be an improvement.





AlbertN -> RE: Assault HQ rules coming in a future version (9/24/2021 3:48:24 PM)

Nothing will be done concerning Admin Points?
Soviets can just do leadership laundry in no time for all I can see, changing 2-4 leaders a turn on need presently with their fat slice of 25 AP a turn. (That including upping to Assault 2 Fronts on T1 and T2, without new leaders there).





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