PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (Submitted 07-22-2021) (Full Version)

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BeirutDude -> PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (Submitted 07-22-2021) (7/11/2021 6:40:04 PM)

Tweaked below...

My attempt at a modern day "Midway scenario" in the Indian Ocean. The two Indian aircraft carriers face off against the two (Type 001 and Type 002) PLA(N) carriers, with a PLAN amphibious operation against Great Nicobar Island added in. The battle is for control of the Straits of Malacca.

I have only had time to run through it about half way so far and haven't gotten to the full carrier battle/amphibious operation. So could use some help there. This is the most extensive tweaking to the Side Doctrine I have done for weapons systems. So what I am saying is I haven't play tested it as much as I normally like to do before putting out for a community play test but next week is very busy for me and don't know how much I will get to it for personal playtests this week.

Actually I just hound a pretty major Indian Mission error after two people had downloaded it. This is a correction.




Sanyr1310 -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/12/2021 5:24:30 AM)

Dude, do you know someone in the Steam workshop has alraedy made a similar scenario long time ago? One of a big series of China-India war




Sanyr1310 -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/12/2021 6:27:56 AM)

Nice scenario and I have found some places could be improved:

1. The units in Guiping Mengshu airbase ( appeared in your former scenarios ) are H-6Js and H-6Gs, how about replacing H-6Ks ( which are belongs to the air force not the naval aviation ) with them and I think it would be more realistic to equip them with YJ-12s.

2. The J-15D is a kind of ECM variant which should have played the role of JD-15, however,according to the DB issue,the J-15D can only perform communication JAM not OECM. You have made the two carrier wings equipped with J-15D as main strength, I think they should be replaced with normal J-15/J-15S. The JD-15 squadron could be remained with no change.

3. I have noticed that there is a 053H1G Shantou in the last AOE group. According to the open source information, it has decommissioned in 2020, how about repalcing it with a 054a FFG?

4. Someone has told me that the main forces of Indian are deployed in Port Blair, landing on the Baaz island can't eliminate the threat of IN/IAF to PLAN,and there are more infrastructures on Port Blair which makes for PLAN to build and enforce there presence in India Ocean. So I think it will be better to move the amphibious oparea to Port Blair.

End





BeirutDude -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/12/2021 9:29:47 AM)

I really don’t know much about Stream.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanyr1310

Dude, do you know someone in the Steam workshop has alraedy made a similar scenario long time ago? One of a big series of China-India war





BeirutDude -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/12/2021 9:40:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanyr1310

Nice scenario and I have found some places could be improved:

1. The units in Guiping Mengshu airbase ( appeared in your former scenarios ) are H-6Js and H-6Gs, how about replacing H-6Ks ( which are belongs to the air force not the naval aviation ) with them and I think it would be more realistic to equip them with YJ-12s.

2. The J-15D is a kind of ECM variant which should have played the role of JD-15, however,according to the DB issue,the J-15D can only perform communication JAM not OECM. You have made the two carrier wings equipped with J-15D as main strength, I think they should be replaced with normal J-15/J-15S. The JD-15 squadron could be remained with no change.

3. I have noticed that there is a 053H1G Shantou in the last AOE group. According to the open source information, it has decommissioned in 2020, how about repalcing it with a 054a FFG?

4. Someone has told me that the main forces of Indian are deployed in Port Blair, landing on the Baaz island can't eliminate the threat of IN/IAF to PLAN,and there are more infrastructures on Port Blair which makes for PLAN to build and enforce there presence in India Ocean. So I think it will be better to move the amphibious oparea to Port Blair.

End




I typed up a reply on my tablet and it crashed. Have to reply later now.




BeirutDude -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/13/2021 12:45:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanyr1310

Nice scenario and I have found some places could be improved:

1. The units in Guiping Mengshu airbase ( appeared in your former scenarios ) are H-6Js and H-6Gs, how about replacing H-6Ks ( which are belongs to the air force not the naval aviation ) with them and I think it would be more realistic to equip them with YJ-12s.


So we've had this conversation before! [:D] [8D] [:)]

The aircraft in both scenarios are correct and are PLAAF H-6K "God of War" aircraft. Please see the image attached for the aircraft at the base. NOW The data base may have an error, which I have no control over. So if you would like the H-6Ks upgraded to carry YJ-12's you need to contact the Developers by putting in a correction request for the DB3000 database. Also I will place YJ-12 missiles in the magazines so that when this fixed by the developers the missiles will be available. Please make that post to fix this situation.

quote:

2. The J-15D is a kind of ECM variant which should have played the role of JD-15, however,according to the DB issue,the J-15D can only perform communication JAM not OECM. You have made the two carrier wings equipped with J-15D as main strength, I think they should be replaced with normal J-15/J-15S. The JD-15 squadron could be remained with no change.


Good point. Thanks for suggesting it, that's an easy fix.

quote:

3. I have noticed that there is a 053H1G Shantou in the last AOE group. According to the open source information, it has decommissioned in 2020, how about repalcing it with a 054a FFG?


Mind sharing the database you are using for the PLA(N)? The one I have is a bit out of date. That said, again this is an easy change. Thanks for suggesting it. I really don't think it will change the outcome.

quote:

4. Someone has told me that the main forces of Indian are deployed in Port Blair, landing on the Baaz island can't eliminate the threat of IN/IAF to PLAN,and there are more infrastructures on Port Blair which makes for PLAN to build and enforce there presence in India Ocean. So I think it will be better to move the amphibious oparea to Port Blair.


So this one is the equivalent of someone saying in WWII, "Landing on Guadalcanal can not completely eliminate the threat from the Japanese bases in New Britain and New Ireland, so the 1st Marine Division should immediately land in New Ireland and skip Guadalcanal." Guadalcanal was a necessary stepping stone in the initial island hopping campaign, where the Marines learned some very valuable lessons that made the later campaigns in Bougainville and other islands more successful. Nobody said this was the last scenario in this area and indeed if you read the description you will see I suggest you take INS Baaz intact as it's facilities could be used for further operations. HINT, HINT...

BTW I did think about giving enough Amphibs to go after both Great Nicobar Island AND Port Blair in one operation but I...

A. Don't believe PLA(N) has the ability to coordinate that many task groups that far from the First Island Arc yet.
B. With only one more LHD likely available by 2024 Don't think both would be risked for this op.
C. Don't believe a PLA(N) Marine Corp with NO appreciable combat experience would be able to go after more than one island at a time (again look at the U.S. at Guadalcanal in August 1942).

So going after Great Nicobar Island achieves the following (and remember in this scenario the Indian Air Force is still engaged with the PRC and Pakistan in the west and northwest of the country)...

A. With limited forces deployed, eliminates an Indian threat to PRC shipping in and near the Malacca Straits.
B. Gains needed combat experience
C. Captures a relatively easily resupplied base for future operations and air support without requiring the PLA(N) CVs for further operations against Port Blair and INS Kohassa.

Just saying... [sm=00000436.gif]

[image]local://upfiles/44561/90A79897DC4648DFB7660ABC5D33294E.jpg[/image]




BeirutDude -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/13/2021 1:14:37 AM)

quote:

...So if you would like the H-6Ks upgraded to carry YJ-12's you need to contact the Developers by putting in a correction request for the DB3000 database...

...Please make that post to fix this situation.


Here I did it...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3436106&mpage=233&key=�




Sanyr1310 -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/13/2021 3:06:40 AM)

Howdy!So great to receive your response. And glad to see you recover from an illness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

Mind sharing the database you are using for the PLA(N)? The one I have is a bit out of date. That said, again this is an easy change. Thanks for suggesting it. I really don't think it will change the outcome.


Well,far from database or intelligence,just naval defence news and Wiki.

quote:

So this one is the equivalent of someone saying in WWII, "Landing on Guadalcanal can not completely eliminate the threat from the Japanese bases in New Britain and New Ireland, so the 1st Marine Division should immediately land in New Ireland and skip Guadalcanal." Guadalcanal was a necessary stepping stone in the initial island hopping campaign, where the Marines learned some very valuable lessons that made the later campaigns in Bougainville and other islands more successful. Nobody said this was the last scenario in this area and indeed if you read the description you will see I suggest you take INS Baaz intact as it's facilities could be used for further operations. HINT, HINT...

BTW I did think about giving enough Amphibs to go after both Great Nicobar Island AND Port Blair in one operation but I...

A. Don't believe PLA(N) has the ability to coordinate that many task groups that far from the First Island Arc yet.
B. With only one more LHD likely available by 2024 Don't think both would be risked for this op.
C. Don't believe a PLA(N) Marine Corp with NO appreciable combat experience would be able to go after more than one island at a time (again look at the U.S. at Guadalcanal in August 1942).

So going after Great Nicobar Island achieves the following (and remember in this scenario the Indian Air Force is still engaged with the PRC and Pakistan in the west and northwest of the country)...

A. With limited forces deployed, eliminates an Indian threat to PRC shipping in and near the Malacca Straits.
B. Gains needed combat experience
C. Captures a relatively easily resupplied base for future operations and air support without requiring the PLA(N) CVs for further operations against Port Blair and INS Kohassa.

Just saying... [sm=00000436.gif]


To be honest,I don't know much about this, I believe it is better for you to discuss with someone professional.[:)]




BeirutDude -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/13/2021 9:39:52 AM)

quote:

And glad to see you recover from an illness.


Thank you. Not fully there but getting a lot more functionality back/less "foggy." Taught an ICS G-400 class yesterday for the first time. Slurred a bit but that is getting better too. You know the old saying, "use it or loose it."




BeirutDude -> RE: Corrected: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-11-2021) (7/13/2021 12:55:22 PM)

Really Tweaks more than anything (New Version below).

1. Removed the Type 053H1 from the Replenishment Group without replacement.
2. Tweaked misions start times a bit.
3. Changed out PLA(N) J-15Ds for J-15's as suggested above.
4. Adjusted Strike mission radii down (the carrier aircraft were launching too early).




BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-13-2021) (7/13/2021 5:58:23 PM)

Found a minor typo in the Lua Scripts for reassigning the Port and Base to the PLAN when they are captured. I have fixed that. Just a bit of dyslexia! [:D]




BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-13-2021) (7/13/2021 11:37:42 PM)

Just sank both Indian carrier BGs, took Great Nicobar Island and did so within two days. So will adjust the time down to Two Days for the next update.




BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-13-2021) (7/14/2021 6:33:24 PM)

Tweaked below 07/20/2021





BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/17/2021 10:57:01 AM)

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Otherwise I'm posting it.




AndrewJ -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/17/2021 6:15:09 PM)

The AOEs are supposed to be mostly out of fuel intentionally? (Having just filled up their respective task groups?)




BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/17/2021 8:31:15 PM)

quote:

The AOEs are supposed to be mostly out of fuel intentionally? (Having just filled up their respective task groups?)


Yes, they just fueled up the TFs and can detach. There is a port in Malaysia, Jobor? That they can refuel in and if you need more resupply for the TFs there is the Replenishment group that just left there, and one other detached AOE. Used Malaysia as I didn't think Singapore would refuel them in this situation.

Have now clarified/covered this in the Scenario notes.




AndrewJ -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/19/2021 9:28:12 PM)

Here's how it went for me.

Situation

Well, India is resisting our natural Chinese destiny for hegemony over anything in our grasp, so it’s time to teach them a lesson and seize their bases on the southern-most of the Nicobar Islands. We’ve got a heavy carrier group composed of both of our carriers and numerous powerful escorts headed NNW through the Straits of Malacca, immediately ahead of a strong amphibious group. We’ve got another replenishment group further back down the straits, just passing Singapore, and a few subs scattered around the area. There’s also a base full of bombers and tankers and AEW back home in Yunnan province, and we’ve got permission to overfly Burma to get them into the theatre.

The Indians reportedly have both their carrier groups out to sea somewhere, and presumably they have subs deployed as well. They’ve got multiple airfields scattered along the Andaman and Nicobar Islands (four of them, including the one we want on Great Nicobar), plus bases all along the Indian coast and into the interior.


Orders

My ships are ordered to tighten up formation a little, getting into good anti-missile and ASW screening formation. I’m naturally concerned about subs in the confined straits, and since there’s nowhere to hide, I might as well be overt. Fish-stunning levels of sound are to be blasted into the channel by our powerful active sonars. My two eastern subs will patrol quietly towards our expected operation area SE of Great Nicobar, in case anyone’s lurking there, while the two western ones will wait for information on the position of the enemy carriers.

My bombers are ordered to commence with an immediate ALCM attack on the northern three airbases on the islands (I used the option to switch from KD-63s to KD-20 ALCMs at the start of the scenario – much longer range, and more of them per plane). My fighters, which are all down for reloading at the moment, are directed to commence regional patrols once they are ready. My AEW planes in China are ordered to set up patrols off the southern tip of Burma, to guard against any intrusions from the north.


Operations Commence

As my surveillance assets head out, I soon get indications of multiple MPA, both manned and unmanned, operating in the region of the islands, but I have no fighters to tackle them yet! Satellite ESM also picks up signs of two carrier groups out to sea, or, rather, their AEW helicopters. My own AEW plane comes across Burma, and soon gets indications that the Indians have their own AEW plane and a tanker operating in the north end of the Bay of Bengal, and some Su-30s operating out of their base on North Andaman. I also find multiple small patrol boats operating amongst the islands, some zipping around at an impressive 42 knots, but no major warships seem to be present. There are also a number of radars emitting near my objectives at Campbell Bay, so there’s at least some air defence in the region.


Initial Hostilities

The first major action comes when my bombers unleash a massive ALCM attack on the island chain, with missiles arriving simultaneously at all the northern bases. All runways are cratered, and numerous base facilities are smashed, and there doesn’t seem to have been any air defence reaction at all, not even at the large northern base.

My own fighters are finally ready now, and they swiftly sweep the area, killing multiple MPA and UAVs, as well as a tanker operating west of the islands. They also get a good look at those fast movers, which turn out to be little Super Dvoras, and even strafe one or two, but they generally leave the small ships alone. Two of them head north, towards my tankers orbiting over Burma, and kill off the undefended Indian AEW plane and tanker operating up there.

To my surprise, there has been no enemy air activity out of INS Baaz on Great Nicobar. My fighters will continue to operate freely throughout the region, slaughtering intruding MPA and recce aircraft for the remainder of the scenario.


Carriers located

At 1345 local, my radar satellites make a beautiful pass over the region, clearly identifying the two Indian carrier groups which are converging towards Great Nicobar. Their courses are calculated, and my two western subs are sent to ambush them.

My fighters also commence operations in the region of the southern carrier. At first, my skirmishes with the MiG-29s are largely indecisive, although I do manage to kill a few of the carrier group’s helicopters despite interference from the ships’ SAMs. Eventually I smarten up and send some heavy fighter sweeps, and with numerical advantage I start making good kills on the enemy aircraft, until no more come up to fight. A few fighters are left to patrol in case any other aircraft pop up.


Small Strikes

At 1730 local my planes commence SEAD strikes against the radars on Great Nicobar, although lousy ARM accuracy means it takes a ridiculous number of missiles just to hit a few of the surveillance radars. Shots at the small ships in the region don’t do much better.

My carrier group continues to advance towards the region, despite a few close-range ASW scares from biologicals, eventually emerging from the mouth of the straits and commencing to use its shorter-range ASMS to plink the small Indian ships in the area. There’s no sense in using the good long-range stuff to hit these, and even so it’s faintly ridiculous to use a full-fledged missile to hit the tiny runabouts, but I’ve got no other real option unless I want to resort to guns or iron bombs. (My helicopters aren’t ready yet.) Despite an appalling string of malfunctions, misses, and wizard defensive gunnery on their part, they are eventually all sunk.


Vikramaditya

At about 2200 local, the Yuan Zheng, a Chinese Kilo gets into firing position in front of the Vikramaditya. Creeping at a ghostly 2 knots, she puts four torpedoes into the carrier. As the enemy mills around in confusion, she reloads and puts another one into the carrier, and sinks two escorts and cripples a third. Unknown to the Yuan Zheng, the escorts are trying to launch ASW helicopters, but my patrolling fighters manage to get to them before they ID my sub. Her final salvo torpedoes another two escorts, and the two last shots head for the carrier. One sinks it, and the last torp wobbles around, locks on to the wounded Sayhardi, misses it, comes around for another attack, and finally sinks it. It’s 2230 local, the Yuan Zheng is out of anti-shipping torpedoes, and the entire carrier group is gone.


Great Nicobar

My amphib group is approaching Great Nicobar in the small hours of the morning. Missile-carrying Helixes are the first on the scene, scouting around in the dark, killing a small battery of Harop SSMs, and playing hide-and-seek with a pair of SA-19s, eventually killing them when they pause to reload. They then overfly the airport, strafing the P-8s which are parked there, and confirming the absence of troops.

My LCACs get underway around 0115 local, and they arrive on the beaches of Campbell Bay shortly afterwards, unloading light tanks and infantry. Meanwhile, transport helicopters are dropping off troops in the surrounding hills. There is no opposition, and the occupation of the island is well underway.


Vikrant

Fighter sweeps have been tangling with the Vikrant’s air wing for a few hours now, and once the opposition is down a couple of planes sneak in and put four anti-shipping missiles into the leading escort, sinking her before she can react.

That leaves the way open for the Chang Zheng 5, my Han-class SSN, to lie in wait and torpedo the oncoming Vikrant. Five of six torpedoes hit the carrier, and then another two sink her. At 0230 local she’s underwater.

The remaining escorts are not quite as easy to hit. The Han’s torpedoes are slower than the Kilo’s, and the alert escorts can outrun them unless I launch from so close they can hit me with RBUs. Therefore, the SSN sneaks around behind the survivors, as they form up and continue SE, and gets into their baffles for a stern chase. She manages to torpedo two more of the escorts, undetected from close range, but the third one runs off at 32 knots and can’t be caught. She’s all alone in the ocean, however, and she’s eventually hunted down and sunk by aircraft.


Done

By 0900 the following morning, all is complete. The beachhead is firmly in control, more troops and supplies are shuttling ashore, and the amphibious operation is a success. Both carrier groups have been annihilated, and, other than a few small patrol craft up near the Andamans, there is no further sign of the Indian Navy. ASW patrols are in place around the beachhead, and even if one of their subs does come calling, I expect I will be able to spot it before it reaches the ‘phibs. So, it seems safe to inform HQ that the mission is a success.




BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/19/2021 10:33:10 PM)

Thanks AndrewJ.

I can see a few tweaks from your excellent write up!




AndrewJ -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/19/2021 10:48:16 PM)

Play Observations

China seems to have a very strong position in this scenario, and the player should have little difficulty achieving their objectives.

The Chinese group is a massive concentrated SAM bastion (384 HHQ-9s in the carrier group alone!), while the Indians are two smaller more vulnerable groups. The Chinese double-carrier group holds 42 fighters, of which 29 were available in my playthrough (not counting the SEAD Flankers), and while the Indian carriers hold 22 each, for 44, only 12 are available as fighters, and the rest are set aside on strike missions. Defeat six fighters, and you have air superiority over a single carrier group. The Badgers can completely swamp any conceivable defence on the islands, removing them within a few hours of the start. Alternatively, if loaded with anti-shipping missiles, they can erase the biggest carrier group with no trouble, and do the same again the following day. All the MPA, drones, and tankers operating around the island have no defence against Chinese fighters, and are extremely vulnerable, and even the valuable AEW plane up north is defenceless once the airbase and the four Flankers there are gone.

I think it may be worth looking at ways to greatly increase the relative effectiveness of the Indian forces.

Assorted hair-brained ideas follow…

  • Maybe one of the Chinese carriers has been delayed by an engine casualty, or the like, so it’s 6 or more hours behind the other one? Or has an engine casualty a few hours after the game starts (Lua inflicted casualty and repair)?

  • Maybe the Indians have ground-based observers with good night vision on the shores of Great Nicobar, or of the Straits of Malacca themselves, to help spot the advancing ships?

  • Have they got a good shore-based Brahmos tucked away on one of the lesser Islands, where the player might not look initially?

  • It’s very easy to predict the paths of the carriers once you get satellite radar contact, and then send your subs to the precise ambush point. Zig-zagging would make it more difficult for the subs to intercept (particularly the SSK), and if they have to keep dashing to new intercept points someone might hear them.

  • I was surprised there were no significant land forces on Great Nicobar. Maybe some troops and MANPADS could liven things up? Or good SAMs up near Kohassa?

  • Maybe the Indian subs are closer in to the straits? Maybe one is in the straits – resting on the bottom in the shallows near the coast, ready to try and move in and pick off part of the ships behind the main escorts? (i.e., a mission that activates part way into the scenario)

  • Mines?? Or maybe just a public declaration that they reserve the right to lay mines in their water? That oughta get a reaction…


    More after a chance to look around.




  • BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/19/2021 11:29:01 PM)

    I've already adjusted Indian sub positions to be more of a challenge.

    Added a hypothetical Multirole Tejas Mk1 Squadron at Great Nicobar Island with an AAW Alert Mission.

    quote:

    Or good SAMs up near Kohassa?


    Indian SAMs are an issue There is no land version of the Barak-8 in the game and the land SAMs they do have just don't have any range. 15-18 nm is about it. I thought about adding an Israeli Iron Dome Battery or S-300PU Bn, but someone would scream about that as India doesn't have either.

    Like the Zig-Zag for the Indian Carriers.

    Can add some troops on Great Nicobar, won't change things but sure. I thought about it earlier, just don't think the Indians take a ground invasion of the island seriously. But some troops might have been flown in when the threat emerged.




    BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/19/2021 11:50:15 PM)

    Eliminated one squadron of H-6Ks and switched one Regt over to KD-20s




    BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/20/2021 12:06:45 AM)

    Have broken up the PLA(N) CSG in two separate CSGs and moved the Shandong CSG closer to Singapore. So that will put some distance between them.

    Adjusted PLA(N) sub missions a bit so they aren't all so far forward.




    BeirutDude -> Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-20-2021) (7/20/2021 12:30:10 PM)

    20 July 2021 update which incorporates the points mentioned above based on AndrewJ's feedback.




    BeirutDude -> RE: Updated: PT Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 2024 (07-14-2021) (7/20/2021 12:39:14 PM)

    quote:

    Have they got a good shore-based Brahmos tucked away on one of the lesser Islands, where the player might not look initially?


    Sadly the C:MO database does not have shore based BraHmos ASMs. SSMs yes, but ASMs no.




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