Moving and selecting with the LMB (Full Version)

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MorningDew -> Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 2:06:53 AM)

I find selecting and moving with the LMB causes a lot of mistaken moves. I move a unit, then go to select the unit adjacent and the currently selected unit moves into the hex.

I think I understand why most games I play use RMB to move, LMB to select now.

Is there a way to avoid this? Am I missing a secret?




Monkie -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 10:44:09 AM)

This is an issue for me as well, I mentioned it in the Steam Suggestion forum for the game. I don't know if there is any secret to get around it other than being very careful.

It's only usually an issue if you have lots of friendly units adjacent to each other, but one wrong click and the scenario might be ruined. I think the best solution is to possibly require two left clicks for a friendly unit to enter another friendly units position otherwise the standard one left click works as it does now.

It might seem trivial but it's happened to me many times so there must be a disconnect with how the UI changes what the left click does during each phase.




dox44 -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 1:09:13 PM)

yeah happened to me yesterday for first time and it did ruin the whole scenario.




JonJonJon -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 3:47:23 PM)

An undo button would be a big help. Maybe even a "confirm end phase" pop-up too as I've hit that button by mistake a fair few times.




DingBat -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 4:25:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I find selecting and moving with the LMB causes a lot of mistaken moves. I move a unit, then go to select the unit adjacent and the currently selected unit moves into the hex.

I think I understand why most games I play use RMB to move, LMB to select now.

Is there a way to avoid this? Am I missing a secret?


I'm embarrassed to admit I'm not sure we ever considered using the RMB to move, but it sounds like a good idea. It would definitely solve the issue. We'll discuss and see if it's viable. Perhaps at least as an option.

Cheers




Monkie -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 7:23:54 PM)

Well normally the left click selects the units and brings them up in the right side of the screen, so I think that sticks in the brain and when you are in the movement phase and now the left click can either select the unit or direct the currently selected unit to move it creates the problem. It happens when I move adjacent to a friendly unit and in my mind I want to select that adjacent unit to see what is stacked there and I accidentally move into the hex I only wanted to examine.

I don't think there would be a need to use right click to move units, how about requiring 2 left clicks if a unit wants to move into the same hex as another friendly unit? Keeping the right click to examine a stack is fine but now we might create the same issue where someone only wanted to examine an adjacent stack and ends up moving into that hex on accident with a right click instead of the left click as we have now.





FroBodine -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 8:17:43 PM)

How does the interface currently work in the game? You left click to select a unit, and left click again on the hex you want to move to?

How do you deselect a unit, or select a different unit after selecting a unit, if you decide not to move or fire with the currently selected unit?





Monkie -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 8:46:32 PM)

Ok in the command or fire phases you left click on a hex and all units in the stack are displayed on the right side of the screen. You can also right click on a hex to display the units in the hex in the center of the screen. When you left click on the units they are selected so you can perform actions such as firing or command actions such as breaking down squads. Deselecting a hex is as simple as clicking on an empty hex.

The issue comes up only during the movement phase. You select the hex which has the units you want to move by left clicking the stack of units, you then left click on an adjacent hex to move the units into that hex. So you are using a left click for 2 differen't types of actions at that point. It's important to note also that once you have moved a unit, if you De-select that unit by clicking on an empty hex, that unit is finished moving for the turn even if they have movement points left over.

So say you move a unit one hex and that hex is adjacent to a friendly stack... what happens is that you might want to examine that friendly stack to see what is there and accidentally left click on them (since that is a normal way of examining units in other phases) and you accidentally cause your phasing selected stack to move into that hex instead. The proper way of examing the friendly adjacent hex would be to RIGHT click on that hex however the way our brains are wired it's easy to forget and you end up moving into that hex on accident.

Clear as mud? :)




FroBodine -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 8:54:03 PM)

Thank you for the detailed response. Much appreciated.

So, you say just click on an empty hex to deselect a stack of units. But, if you click an empty hex adjacent to them they will move there instead of getting deselected. So, does this mean to deselect a stack of units, you click on any empty hex AS LONG AS IT'S NOT ADJACENT? If so, that's just a bad design UI.

Also - can you not select a hex three or four hexes away and have your dudes move there? Do you have to select the move path hex by hex, always adjacent?




Monkie -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 9:23:29 PM)

During the movement phase, once you have selected a stack of units with movement points available (not pinned) the adjacent hexes are highlighted and the cost to move into each hex is shown by a large number in that hex, so to answer your second question yes you need to click hex by hex for each move.

You are correct in stating that in order to deselect a unit you must click on any hex not adjacent to that unit however this really only is an issue during the movement phase as I mentioned before. Overall the UI is very fluid and responsive and feels great as there is no lag and the action can move quickly. The only hangup that does strike from time to time is the accidental clicking of an adjacent friendly unit that you meant to examine and not move into the hex with.

The scenarios don't have a lot of turns and so every movement is critical, one wasted movement phase pretty much ends the scenario, much in the same way one or two turns of ineffective fire will bring the scenario to a screeching halt. So in other words a wrong move is usually unrecoverable.




Monkie -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 9:33:31 PM)

As a side note, not only can making a wrong move on accident cause lost time but any overstacking that occurs means the elimination of the units that just moved into that hex, a double whammy of sorts.




FroBodine -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/28/2021 10:15:13 PM)

Thank you again. I saw the scenario list, and you're right. The number of turns is SUPER low. Lock 'n Load Tactical Digital has the same problem, but it has a lot more scenarios with 10 turns. Plus, you can add turns to any scenario you want with a slider, which is very nice.

I really wish this game had some longer scenarios or a way to increase the number of turns. As it is, like you said a single wrong move or one bad dice roll can end the game. And, that's not a good tactical game, it's a puzzle.

I'm sure the game is great, and I'm going to buy it, I just wish scenario designers made much longer scenarios. There is not a scenario in this whole game with more than 10 turns. In fact, I think eight turns is the biggest. That's just not fun to me.




MorningDew -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/29/2021 12:01:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DingBat


quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I find selecting and moving with the LMB causes a lot of mistaken moves. I move a unit, then go to select the unit adjacent and the currently selected unit moves into the hex.

I think I understand why most games I play use RMB to move, LMB to select now.

Is there a way to avoid this? Am I missing a secret?


I'm embarrassed to admit I'm not sure we ever considered using the RMB to move, but it sounds like a good idea. It would definitely solve the issue. We'll discuss and see if it's viable. Perhaps at least as an option.

Cheers


No reason to be embarrassed, that's for sure!

If I had a vote, I would go with RMB moves, and either holding down LMB or SHIFT-RMB shows units as the RMB does today.




Monkie -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/29/2021 3:43:59 AM)

Please, no "Shift-MB" type combinations, it's nice to be able to play the game without having to move the other hand to the keyboard, keep it simple as it is. I think that is what impresses me the most about VV, the simplicity which allows me to concentrate on the game itself and keeps me coming back to try new strategies.




Monkie -> RE: Moving and selecting with the LMB (6/29/2021 3:55:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FroBodine


I'm sure the game is great, and I'm going to buy it, I just wish scenario designers made much longer scenarios. There is not a scenario in this whole game with more than 10 turns. In fact, I think eight turns is the biggest. That's just not fun to me.



10 turns is the max for the user created scenarios so that is the limitation of the engine at this moment. Perhaps this can be increased if the AI can handle it but that would be a question for the dev's. Many of the scenarios are very challenging in that the defenders sit inside buildings with a +3 def modifier and it can take 4 or more fire phases for a large powerful stack to suffciently reduce the defenders enough to assault or move into their field of fire.

A large part of the challenge is trying to get a lot done in a short period of time, I don't think this is always bad, real commanders have to work on time tables but yes it might be nice to also have the possiblity of a few extra "bonus" turns as well to keep both sides a bit off balance.

I like L&L and also TOTH, I'm an old school SL player but so far I am going to say that V&V just keeps me coming back again and again for quick yet engaging battles. I find that it's closer in play type to the card driven board game Combat Commander another one of my favorite squad level games. I've even created a few quick scenarios that suprisingly I found to be more interesting than even I had intended just messing around with the editor. For the asking price I've more than gotten my money's worth.




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