1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (Full Version)

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incbob -> 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 5:27:35 AM)

1.00.02 is a great improvement in slowing Japan down.
No longer does Japan just walk into the DEI and the Philippines. They now feel like real operations.

Japan starts with an oil stockpile of 160.
Japan is going to use 45+ oil per turn invading and moving her fleet.
If you put all your ships into port you will still use around 30+ oil per turn.

With the DEI now taking considerably longer to fall, does Japan need to start with more oil?

I know this is still early, but wanted to start the conversation. Against the AI I had some bad luck in the DEI and was out of oil after like two turns. Even with all ships in port I am still using around 30 oil which without the DEI means I am having noting left.




incbob -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 7:49:36 AM)

I have asked this question to start the discussion.

I have played out the Japanese first couple of turns now under 1.00.02 and I have to say I LOVE!!! the changes. It really makes you think as the Japanese player and requires you to think about priorities.
You do not have the oil to run all your fleets, fly all your planes, have an offensive in China, and transport units all around the map.

By flying no air missions, other than the port strikes at the beginning. Keeping fleet movement to a minimum I can make the Japanese oil last, till February. I say, IF Japan gets more oil it isn't more than 40.

Also, should Japan get some more LC in their build Q? After the first invasions you do not have much left. I don't think they should start out with more, but maybe let them have another 30 mid-January 1942. I do not know am asking.




LeLiquid -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 8:59:39 AM)

What is slowling down japan ? Didn't read anything about DEI in the patchnote. Maybe i'm blind. ^^




Peek101 -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 9:47:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob
Also, should Japan get some more LC in their build Q? After the first invasions you do not have much left. I don't think they should start out with more, but maybe let them have another 30 mid-January 1942. I do not know am asking.


Well this makes it kind of historical right? After their initial invasions the Japanese didn't attempt any more expansion until they went for Port Moresby in May, If the Japanese player wants to go for another wave of invasions they could start building more LC, the earliest they would be available is March.




Steely Glint -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 12:18:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peek101


quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob
Also, should Japan get some more LC in their build Q? After the first invasions you do not have much left. I don't think they should start out with more, but maybe let them have another 30 mid-January 1942. I do not know am asking.


Well this makes it kind of historical right? After their initial invasions the Japanese didn't attempt any more expansion until they went for Port Moresby in May, If the Japanese player wants to go for another wave of invasions they could start building more LC, the earliest they would be available is March.



Exactly! Japanese were severely limited like this in real life, and if you donít reflect those limits in the game then they will ahistorically run amok.

The Warplan series to me to be a wargame series that is about logisticical limits. Japan had some very serious logistical limits. The last thing you want to do is change that, otherwise the Japanese will be invading Australia, which even their own military leaders knew was logistically impossible.

The limits need to stay.




stjeand -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 1:10:41 PM)

Steely while true you can't take away a resource completely and then make it harder to get that resource. IF the Japanese fail to capture the DEI by turn 4 they could be on deaths door if they did not make wise oil decisions.

There have been a LOT of discussions here and historical documents that should if the Japanese had not captured ANY oil in 41 / 42 that they had enough for the entire year.
That is not the case in WP. IF they don't capture any they will be out by Feb 42 if they are using their navy which is unacceptable and unhistorical.

SO

IF the DEI is too hard to take in the first 4 turns that Japanese HAVE to take the UK oil or they will be crippled.


In testing I can take the DEI on turn 1 still fairly easily.
So not sure it matters.


NOW if the player fails and rain comes...there could be oil resource issues.




incbob -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 3:47:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand
In testing I can take the DEI on turn 1 still fairly easily.
So not sure it matters.


I haven't been able to get the DEI to fall in 1 turn, but still have a lot of testing to do.

I love the restrictions on Japan because it is very historical, but want discussion because I want to make sure it is not to much.

Probably we all just need to play more, but thought we could discuss.




stjeand -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 4:07:49 PM)

Land 2 marines and the division...

Bring in some naval support and you get 7/1 odds...YES you only have 1 shot to get it turn 1 but 7/1 is pretty good.

In either case it will fall turn 2 due to 5 attacks even in the rain.




Steely Glint -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/10/2021 8:39:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Steely while true you can't take away a resource completely and then make it harder to get that resource. IF the Japanese fail to capture the DEI by turn 4 they could be on deaths door if they did not make wise oil decisions.


And that's pretty much the way it was historically. The game is fine the way it is.




aspqrz02 -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/11/2021 1:05:24 AM)

Actually, the Japanese estimates of how much Oil they had on hand were ... wrong ... they estimated they had enough to run operations and the economy for around (IIRC) 6-8 months.

However, their book-keeping was ... grossly substandard ... they actually had enough, it turned out, for (again, IIRC, I don't have the sources handy) about 2 years.

BUT!

There is an important caveat.

Pre-war Japan had relied almost 100% of ALLIED (US and British) flagged tankers to move their oil around ... they had virtually none of their own. Which was the real limitation for naval operations ... to refuel ships, as often as not, had to go back TO Japan or wait for their pathetically inadequate oil transport system* to get fuel to ... wherever.

* Japan's Tanker shortage was so extreme that the navy often had to refuel in the NEI where the oil actually was. AND they had to transport oil back to Japan (and around the Pacific) in ordinary Marus carrying 44 gallon drums of the stuff!

Note also that the Refineries and many of the wellheads in Borneo and the NEI were destroyed or badly damaged by the allies ... and the Japanese had limited ability to repair them. In fact, concentrating ALL of such limited capacity it took them a year to get them back to around 40% of pre-war capacity (and they were never able to increase beyond this).

Phil McGregor




Blond_Knight -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/11/2021 1:19:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

Actually, the Japanese estimates of how much Oil they had on hand were ... wrong ... they estimated they had enough to run operations and the economy for around (IIRC) 6-8 months.

However, their book-keeping was ... grossly substandard ... they actually had enough, it turned out, for (again, IIRC, I don't have the sources handy) about 2 years.




Interesting. I could be totally wrong but I thought they discovered during actual war time usage, that only had enough oil for two months.




Platoonist -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/11/2021 1:44:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight


Interesting. I could be totally wrong but I thought they discovered during actual war time usage, that only had enough oil for two months.


By March 1941, the Japanese had managed to squirrel away about 42.7 million barrels of oil, most of it imported from California and Tarakan in Borneo. This was held in some 7,000 oil storage tanks, also purchased from the United States. IJN petroleum reserves at the outbreak of the war amounted to 1,435,000 tons of crude oil, 3,634,000 tons of of bunker fuel, and 473,000 tons of aviation gasoline. This was thought to be adequate for the first year of war, but consumption greatly exceeded prewar projections. The Army estimated it would require 5.7 million barrels of oil per year while Navy requirements were estimated at 17.6 million barrels per year and civilian requirements at 12.6 million barrels per year. This ended up being a considerable underestimate in the first two years of the war.

The Japanese by all accounts badly bungled their limited resources of oil. They took what seemed like the logical step at the time of trying to establish a synthetic oil industry based on their sizable supplies of coal, but this effort failed because of a lack of technical expertise and shortages of alloying and catalytic metals for the synthetic oil plants. The Japanese also suffered a serious loss when an American submarine by blind luck, chanced upon, and sank the one ship carrying most of Japan's few oil industry technicians to the recently captured oil regions. However, demolition of the oil fields of the Netherlands East Indies was carried out rather poorly and production rebounded quickly. The real problem was getting the oil back to Japan. The Japanese tanker fleet was never adequate, and insufficient priority was given to building more tankers. So much of the production from Southeast Asia never actually made it to Japan.

Although production in Japanese-controlled areas peaked at almost four million barrels a month in 1943, imports to Japan never exceeded about 1.4 million barrels a month. In the last two years of the war, the Japanese Fleet lost its advantage of interior lines of communication because of the necessity of basing much of the fleet near its fuel sources, at Singapore or Tawi Tawi.




Platoonist -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/11/2021 2:42:03 AM)

According to Clay Blair's seminal book, Silent Victory, the US Submarine War on Japan that one ship carrying those 1,000 Japanese scientists, oil technicians and engineers south to restore the Dutch oil fields to full production was the 14,500 ton Taiyo Maru. Sunk on May 8th 1942, by the sub USS Grenadier.

I guess the lesson there is never put all your eggheads in one basket.




Steely Glint -> RE: 1.00.02 Does Japan need more oil? (6/11/2021 6:51:57 AM)

Right. So leave things as they are.




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