There are no actual ARID planets in game (Full Version)

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WiZz -> There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 4:29:54 PM)

Hi to all!

I have played SE for a bit and noticed that player actually hasn't any issues with water.
You almost always have water deposit near your starting city or can prospect it later (it's very easy and common). If you find at least 1 glacier/snow hex you solve water problem for a whole game. No need to research/build those buildings which gather water from atmosphere or lithosphere.
Can we have less common water, please? [&o] Some sort of game option slider, I dunno...




Zanotirn -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 4:59:18 PM)

The beginner difficulty guarantees a water (and metal) deposit near your starting city. The other difficulties do not. That said if you start at Tech 3, you wouldn't survive till the ability to extract water from lithosphere without water deposits if the planet has no water in atmosphere. Also if you want to play on low-water planet, better make it hotter, which would prevent glaciers. Also water deposits represent some underground ice deposits or lakes - they don't prevent the planet from counting as "arid" (like Mars is more than just arid despite supposedly having some water underground).

I agree though that in theory having more control here would be nice. You already have some control over oil deposits (via planet age and biosphere), but if Vic gets to finer control over planet generation in general, having among other things control over "Heavy elements" and whatever you call the presents water underground, wouldn't hurt.




WiZz -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 5:36:28 PM)

quote:

The beginner difficulty guarantees a water (and metal) deposit near your starting city. The other difficulties do not.


I don't play on the beginner.

quote:

better make it hotter, which would prevent glaciers.


You know it's pretty difficult. I rerolled Seth class around 20 times and got only 1-2 times a planet hotter than 30 C. You can try planetoid or moon but they are very small.[:(]

quote:

Also water deposits represent some underground ice deposits or lakes - they don't prevent the planet from counting as "arid" (like Mars is more than just arid despite supposedly having some water underground).


And that's a problem for me. I want a world where water is the most expensive resource but I can't.[:(]

quote:

That said if you start at Tech 3, you wouldn't survive till the ability to extract water from lithosphere without water deposits if the planet has no water in atmosphere.


Prospecting helps. A lot. You don't need too much water at the beginning of the game.




deMangler -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 5:48:56 PM)

Don't know if it adds anything, but as someone who always plays unclassified random drop-me-in-a game regular difficulty I have never had any issue with water.
I just started a new game with v1.09.05 and coincidentally I get this...
[image]https://storage.googleapis.com/shadow_empire-public/forum_pics/arid-planet.jpg[/image]

And this is me...

[image]https://storage.googleapis.com/shadow_empire-public/forum_pics/arid-planet-2.jpg[/image]

I often wonder why I never had a problem with water - I thought maybe I just kept getting lucky but it did disappoint me a bit that I never had to fight for possession of valuable water assets ever.





WiZz -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 7:06:03 PM)

Сreate a new game on the latest beta. Moon. On round 3 found a water deposit with 200k using prospecting. Seriously?[:(]

Just found second with 300k. Jesus Christ...




BlueTemplar -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 7:06:33 PM)

Yeah, it seems to me that there are too many, too rich, too easy to extract water mine spots on most planets (what about moons ? EDIT : ninjaed !)

Add to this private farms & domes not requiring water, and being able to roll xenoplants on sub-zero planets that don't need any water, or buy water from traders, and it becomes extremely unlikely to have any water issues.

Has *anyone* (player or AI) ever lost a game because he failed to acquire enough water ?




Bleek -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 7:59:09 PM)

You're making me thirsty.




deMangler -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/9/2021 8:18:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Yeah, it seems to me that there are too many, too rich, too easy to extract water mine spots on most planets (what about moons ? EDIT : ninjaed !)

Add to this private farms & domes not requiring water, and being able to roll xenoplants on sub-zero planets that don't need any water, or buy water from traders, and it becomes extremely unlikely to have any water issues.

Has *anyone* (player or AI) ever lost a game because he failed to acquire enough water ?

That reminded me, there was that time in that AAR I did when I was besieged inside my last town with just a few hexes of zone left - I did have water shortages then and it was exciting and motivating. Probably instinct.




Zanotirn -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 1:42:34 AM)

One other way to create a water challenge (which I agree would be interesting) would be to introduce optional stricter water consumption rules (e.g. "harder water" similar to current easier logistics [:)] )- like having your populace consume water, plus only allowing private economy to get water if it actually gets legitimate sources of it like rain/lakes/rivers or ice mines. In that case it doesn't matter that much if there are some ice deposits around, you'll outgrow them eventually.




Vic -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 6:31:08 AM)

I am thinking of adding a survivor like mode in the future. Maybe combined with a Tech 2 start.

Best wishes,
Vic




Vic -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 6:31:31 AM)

Also I think you need to select HARD mode to NOT have guaranteed water.




LeoMPanther -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 6:54:05 AM)

Additionally, I don't think I've ever had a use for the water purification asset. As I understand it you place it next to an open water source to get more water from it but even the smallest of lakes/seas provide enough water to supply my empires.

Perhaps there should be some undrinkable seas that do have water you can purify from them.




Bleek -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 7:55:18 AM)

Good discussion. Making water more strategic and meaningful would be great.

Perhaps a "parched" option in the history options?

I like the prospect of fighting to become the water barren. A certified trade or wage war for survival resource!




deMangler -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 10:13:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Also I think you need to select HARD mode to NOT have guaranteed water.

Aha! Excellent!
It is about time I started playing on hard anyway. BTW - I do find that playing without selecting a planet class and drop-me-in-a-game gives a really interesting and different game each time, generally.




BlueTemplar -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 10:58:04 AM)

Just don't expect to get viable open (xeno)farming requiring water on Unclassified, on v1.07.06 I rolled like 50 of them without getting any, had to "settle" for Siwa...

and got a lvl 8, 83k water spot 1 hex from a quite rainy coast ! (on Hard) XD




Uemon -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 10:58:31 AM)

Vic you should consider adding starting resources as a new game settings option.

For example give player control over whether they start with that metal deposit or not. For example i dont care whether i start with taxes or not, whether i get water or not, but that metal deposit kinda makes a huge difference.




zgrssd -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 11:00:21 AM)

Without a water source you would simply not be able to exist.

My headcanon goes like this:
- there is no shortage of settlements on the planets. Most are free folk towns
- only the most relevant become actuall cities
- and of those cities, only those that find reliable sources of water, metal and rare metals have a shot at becomming majors

There are 2 "great filters" between the Free Folk towns, the player and any AI major.




deMangler -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 11:18:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Without a water source you would simply not be able to exist.

My headcanon goes like this:
- there is no shortage of settlements on the planets. Most are free folk towns
- only the most relevant become actuall cities
- and of those cities, only those that find reliable sources of water, metal and rare metals have a shot at becomming majors

There are 2 "great filters" between the Free Folk towns, the player and any AI major.

Mine also and it makes huge sense.
You wouldn't be there unless there were water present, as the game stands. However there is still a place for including in the history that whatever lucky water there was close by has expired, and now you are the new leader and what you have won't last forever.
Just another set of initial conditions under which maybe you get to play the community that either against the odds becomes a major, or experiences why those without water rarely become majors.
I will admit that if a game has a hardcore mode, I usually play it, - reason being that I like the mode that is likely the most balanced, which is usually either the permadeath or hardcore mode or standard, so I might be a bit biased.
However, Shadow Empire is a bit different because it isn't about always starting with the same chance of winning given the same 'starting mode'




zgrssd -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 11:29:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: deMangler

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Without a water source you would simply not be able to exist.

My headcanon goes like this:
- there is no shortage of settlements on the planets. Most are free folk towns
- only the most relevant become actuall cities
- and of those cities, only those that find reliable sources of water, metal and rare metals have a shot at becomming majors

There are 2 "great filters" between the Free Folk towns, the player and any AI major.

Mine also and it makes huge sense.
You wouldn't be there unless there were water present, as the game stands. However there is still a place for including in the history that whatever lucky water there was close by has expired, and now you are the new leader and what you have won't last forever.
Just another set of initial conditions under which maybe you get to play the community that either against the odds becomes a major, or experiences why those without water rarely become majors.
I will admit that if a game has a hardcore mode, I always play it, failing that I usually stick to whatever is considered the 'standard mode', so I might be a bit biased.


Suggestion:
"History Class: Dwindling Resoruces"
"Player empires start with severely limited deposits."

I would limit it to players, as the AI could not plan itself out off a water shortage while 1 hex from a lake.
This is purely a extra challenge for players.




deMangler -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 11:46:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: deMangler

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Without a water source you would simply not be able to exist.

My headcanon goes like this:
- there is no shortage of settlements on the planets. Most are free folk towns
- only the most relevant become actuall cities
- and of those cities, only those that find reliable sources of water, metal and rare metals have a shot at becomming majors

There are 2 "great filters" between the Free Folk towns, the player and any AI major.

Mine also and it makes huge sense.
You wouldn't be there unless there were water present, as the game stands. However there is still a place for including in the history that whatever lucky water there was close by has expired, and now you are the new leader and what you have won't last forever.
Just another set of initial conditions under which maybe you get to play the community that either against the odds becomes a major, or experiences why those without water rarely become majors.
I will admit that if a game has a hardcore mode, I always play it, failing that I usually stick to whatever is considered the 'standard mode', so I might be a bit biased.


Suggestion:
"History Class: Dwindling Resoruces"
"Player empires start with severely limited deposits."

I would limit it to players, as the AI could not plan itself out off a water shortage while 1 hex from a lake.
This is purely a extra challenge for players.


Sorry - I edited my post while you were posting. I always feel is a bit rude when I do that even though it can't be helped sometimes. But yeah - or players start with no resources within n hexes, apart from if that resourse is in an AI hex, in which case it is already contested.




WiZz -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 3:03:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Also I think you need to select HARD mode to NOT have guaranteed water.


Just generated 2 hard games and got water every time.[8|]

Extreme too. [:D]




Vic -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 3:38:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Also I think you need to select HARD mode to NOT have guaranteed water.


Just generated 2 hard games and got water every time.[8|]

Extreme too. [:D]


I'll double check the algorithms.




LORDPrometheus -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 4:48:35 PM)

Kind of off topic but what if planets with a hostile biosphere and toxic fauna had the potential to have toxic water as well requiring specific filtration techs to be usable. This may require players using subsurface deposits until they can use the surface water




WiZz -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 5:06:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LORDPrometheus

Kind of off topic but what if planets with a hostile biosphere and toxic fauna had the potential to have toxic water as well requiring specific filtration techs to be usable. This may require players using subsurface deposits until they can use the surface water


It could make water filtration asset usable...




BlueTemplar -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/10/2021 6:06:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

Vic you should consider adding starting resources as a new game settings option.

For example give player control over whether they start with that metal deposit or not. For example i dont care whether i start with taxes or not, whether i get water or not, but that metal deposit kinda makes a huge difference.

I hear that Beginner (and Normal ?) players are now guaranteed a nearby Metal spot ? (In addition to their Ruins of course.)

(Might still be a fairness issue on harder difficulties multiplayer ?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Without a water source you would simply not be able to exist.

My headcanon goes like this:
- there is no shortage of settlements on the planets. Most are free folk towns
- only the most relevant become actuall cities
- and of those cities, only those that find reliable sources of water, metal and rare metals have a shot at becomming majors

There are 2 "great filters" between the Free Folk towns, the player and any AI major.

Even realism-wise there are still the sub-zero xenoplants. And I assume that regimes with otherwise abundant resources would be able to trade for water ?

quote:

I would limit it to players, as the AI could not plan itself out off a water shortage while 1 hex from a lake.

I see what you mean (AI being pretty dumb in general), but Vic's AI can't possibly be *that* bad (in this specific case) ?




zgrssd -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/11/2021 7:11:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LORDPrometheus

Kind of off topic but what if planets with a hostile biosphere and toxic fauna had the potential to have toxic water as well requiring specific filtration techs to be usable. This may require players using subsurface deposits until they can use the surface water

Filtering can be as simple as boiling the water and catching the steam. Basic destillation is not a particulary hard technology. So at the end, you got water from rain, rivers, lakes or oceans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

[...]

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Without a water source you would simply not be able to exist.

My headcanon goes like this:
- there is no shortage of settlements on the planets. Most are free folk towns
- only the most relevant become actuall cities
- and of those cities, only those that find reliable sources of water, metal and rare metals have a shot at becomming majors

There are 2 "great filters" between the Free Folk towns, the player and any AI major.

Even realism-wise there are still the sub-zero xenoplants. And I assume that regimes with otherwise abundant resources would be able to trade for water ?

quote:

I would limit it to players, as the AI could not plan itself out off a water shortage while 1 hex from a lake.

I see what you mean (AI being pretty dumb in general), but Vic's AI can't possibly be *that* bad (in this specific case) ?

Trading for something as fundamental as water would not be longterm feasible. If you have metals and rare metals but no water source, chances are the need to trade for water would limit you to being a minor city at best.
It is save to asume that Free Folk towns do include some food and water production - however this is so far below your ability to tax it, it does not realy mater either way.

As for the AI:
Gaming AI can not plan ahead. Not even a little. It is a fundamental, unavoidable limitation.

"Dwindling Resources" is a good example of something where:
- there is so little planing ahead to do, the average human does not even notice he just did some planing
- there is so much planing to do there is no way for the AI to do it




phyroks -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/11/2021 9:38:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz
If you find at least 1 glacier/snow hex you solve water problem for a whole game. No need to research/build those buildings which gather water from atmosphere or lithosphere.


Im playing on hard and on slower game settings and by turn 80 all the water from planet is gone.

But I agree, water mining should be changed, perhaps all planets should have one "easy" water at start with low stock and the rest should be much harder to mine. So arid planets would have extremely slow to mine water sources(but still enough), meaning you would need a lot of mines, making the other water buildings more attractive while making sure water does not run out too early even if you are low tech(but it should still run out eventually)




LORDPrometheus -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/11/2021 1:29:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: LORDPrometheus

Kind of off topic but what if planets with a hostile biosphere and toxic fauna had the potential to have toxic water as well requiring specific filtration techs to be usable. This may require players using subsurface deposits until they can use the surface water


Well yes but also no. You are correct that basic distillation and filtration is very easy however there are many ways for water to be contaminated. Many polar compounds form azeotropes with water which complicates distillation as a fractional setup would be required. Water could also become contaminated by biological means. It is very conceivable for bacteria or fungi to be present in the air of a world and rapidly colonize and exposed water. They could produce a myriad of toxins that could do serious harm to anyone unlucky enough to drink them. I'm just throwing out ideas and this is only one idea to further cement the idea of a hostile world.




WiZz -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/11/2021 2:30:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: phyroks
Im playing on hard and on slower game settings and by turn 80 all the water from planet is gone.


I don't believe it. It seems you don't do any prospecting.




phyroks -> RE: There are no actual ARID planets in game (6/12/2021 7:16:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz


quote:

ORIGINAL: phyroks
Im playing on hard and on slower game settings and by turn 80 all the water from planet is gone.


I don't believe it. It seems you don't do any prospecting.


You do know that there is a screen for you to know if there is anything left to prospect?

And no, the few mines I had did not just pump water over the limit, some were mothballed/slowed down so that I would not waste it. Its not the 1st game where water is not infinite resource (but it does not always happen on arid planets), slower speed on game and larger planet makes water more "fun" if there is no rainfall.

I dont remember when the water shortage made me start removing dome farms and move to hydroponics/rock dehydration and slowing down water mining, but it sometimes happens.

But if you do get some water source with large amount of water its rather hard to fully deplete it, I dont think any of the ones I discovered in this game had more than 200k water.

Water system could be tweaked to be better but its not always complete failure. [8|]

[image]local://upfiles/75720/ADC91A3A77FD45C2B0DEF06869D3D04B.jpg[/image]




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