How do you "double chit"? (Full Version)

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Alcibiades73 -> How do you "double chit"? (5/19/2021 11:58:51 PM)

Or what is the optimal method? Is it basically putting two chits in a technology, and then you withdraw one of the two chits when the tech is near finished - so you can at least recoup some MPPs?




Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 12:03:53 AM)

As an aside, does the AI ever double chit?




Illiniwek80 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 12:04:26 AM)

huh. I always thought it remitted half of the balance remaining chit. Could be wrong.




Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 12:10:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80

huh. I always thought it remitted half of the balance remaining chit. Could be wrong.


I've never tried, so I don't know ;)




Elessar2 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 1:15:38 AM)

This assumes that you need the MPPs back more than you need the next tech level (if any; which in some cases would make sense, esp. if you want to fast-track something to a "must have" level. But you can always sell the extra one after the next level is reached anyway.




Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 1:20:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

This assumes that you need the MPPs back more than you need the next tech level (if any; which in some cases would make sense, esp. if you want to fast-track something to a "must have" level. But you can always sell the extra one after the next level is reached anyway.


So the extra chit doesn't "disappear," even if you complete the tech? I guess I ought to try and see what happens.

Is double chit-ting generally widely used?




OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 2:38:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

This assumes that you need the MPPs back more than you need the next tech level (if any; which in some cases would make sense, esp. if you want to fast-track something to a "must have" level. But you can always sell the extra one after the next level is reached anyway.


So the extra chit doesn't "disappear," even if you complete the tech? I guess I ought to try and see what happens.

Is double chit-ting generally widely used?

Yes..if a player determines a certain research tech(s) is of high priority. Whats interesting about this is that each of the major powers have different possible approaches to consider.




Elessar2 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 7:26:03 PM)

Guess that got garbled on my end. You have 2 chits, hit 100% on that tech, one is consumed, the other one remains. If you no longer need the remaining one, you can sell it at that point (note you also may be near your country's investment limit and need to free up MPPs for other more crucial techs, either before or after you hit 100%). Long story short yes you can put 2 chits into certain techs, but can sell the remaining one after the next level is reached.




Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 7:32:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Guess that got garbled on my end. You have 2 chits, hit 100% on that tech, one is consumed, the other one remains. If you no longer need the remaining one, you can sell it at that point (note you also may be near your country's investment limit and need to free up MPPs for other more crucial techs, either before or after you hit 100%). Long story short yes you can put 2 chits into certain techs, but can sell the remaining one after the next level is reached.


Perfectly clear now. Thanks.




Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/20/2021 7:39:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Yes..if a player determines a certain research tech(s) is of high priority. Whats interesting about this is that each of the major powers have different possible approaches to consider.


List those possibilities, please. Germany and Japan - since I am primarily going to play them in the near future? ;)




Elessar2 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/21/2021 2:49:37 AM)

Germany:

Infantry Weapons by early 1941 at the latest (likely won't pay off before the Battle of France)
Advanced Tanks is the must-have. Since 1 chit (5% per turn) will take about a year to pay off, try to time said payoff to happen around March. But gotta keep ahead of the Russians...
Advanced Fighters as well-if for no other reason than to keep ahead of the Western Allies
Advanced Subs, tho this has to correlate with a major commitment to the Battle of the Atlantic (good news is that you get several freebies in 1941)
Ground Attack Weapons
Command & Control
Spying & Intelligence, again to keep ahead of the UK, tho it is likely that any advantage for either will be short-lived
Logistics: For extra HQs if nothing else; note it also gives the receiving HQ a supply boost from a linked HQ.

Now, there's some controversy about Production & Industrial tech. Germany's IT % is 15%, which is pretty significant. Production is mainly useful to minimize the costs of reinforcements, since a good chunk of your forces will likely be bought out before it has a chance to contribute. But there are those who say that the game is won or lost in Russia in 1941, and getting an extra tank or bomber for the 300 MPPs in question is a better choice. I say from experience that trying to rebuild my dinged-up forces during the early '42 lull can be costly if you don't invest in any PT.

Get Arty & Long-Range Air as well if you can spare it.

Japan:

Infantry Weapons, if you plan to maintain a big push into China. They'll likely catch up with you by 1942 note (only 2 levels, which IMHO is too low)
Advanced Fighters
Naval Weaponry and Warfare
Long Range Air (vital for CV vs. CV confrontations as well as air search by your Maritime bombers)
Command & Control
Any of the other Warfare techs that you can spare, but esp. Amphibious (I usually max out the chits here, note there's 5 levels)
Logistics, to defray the costs of all the amphib you will be making

Again, arguments to be made to not spring for PD or ID (or Logistics), buy more units, win the war in 1942. But there will be hundreds of MPPs to be spent rebuilding your fleet even within the first 2 years after you declare war.





Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/21/2021 1:18:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Germany:

Infantry Weapons by early 1941 at the latest (likely won't pay off before the Battle of France)
Advanced Tanks is the must-have. Since 1 chit (5% per turn) will take about a year to pay off, try to time said payoff to happen around March. But gotta keep ahead of the Russians...
Advanced Fighters as well-if for no other reason than to keep ahead of the Western Allies
Advanced Subs, tho this has to correlate with a major commitment to the Battle of the Atlantic (good news is that you get several freebies in 1941)
Ground Attack Weapons
Command & Control
Spying & Intelligence, again to keep ahead of the UK, tho it is likely that any advantage for either will be short-lived
Logistics: For extra HQs if nothing else; note it also gives the receiving HQ a supply boost from a linked HQ.

Now, there's some controversy about Production & Industrial tech. Germany's IT % is 15%, which is pretty significant. Production is mainly useful to minimize the costs of reinforcements, since a good chunk of your forces will likely be bought out before it has a chance to contribute. But there are those who say that the game is won or lost in Russia in 1941, and getting an extra tank or bomber for the 300 MPPs in question is a better choice. I say from experience that trying to rebuild my dinged-up forces during the early '42 lull can be costly if you don't invest in any PT.

Get Arty & Long-Range Air as well if you can spare it.

Japan:

Infantry Weapons, if you plan to maintain a big push into China. They'll likely catch up with you by 1942 note (only 2 levels, which IMHO is too low)
Advanced Fighters
Naval Weaponry and Warfare
Long Range Air (vital for CV vs. CV confrontations as well as air search by your Maritime bombers)
Command & Control
Any of the other Warfare techs that you can spare, but esp. Amphibious (I usually max out the chits here, note there's 5 levels)
Logistics, to defray the costs of all the amphib you will be making

Again, arguments to be made to not spring for PD or ID (or Logistics), buy more units, win the war in 1942. But there will be hundreds of MPPs to be spent rebuilding your fleet even within the first 2 years after you declare war.




Thanks for the wonderfully comprehensive and informative post. A few questions though:

*You repeatedly address the need to get ahead of the opposition in tech. Does this mean double chits on every important technology? Does the AI ever use double chits? How much of a breathing room do I have, if I neglect investing in key techs for a few turns? The issue is that I have very limited funds as Axis, and I cannot always prioritize tech over troops.

*You mention the "Battle of the Atlantic": But how realistic is it for the Axis to be competitive here? The Royal Navy is so much more powerful than the Kriegsmarine. In particular, I lack the surface combatants and Maritime Bombers. How can I successfully wage this? I'd assume I'd need an assist from the Italians, as well as finish things up before the United States concentrates its naval assets in the Atlantic? So realistically, I have to do this before 1942?

*You imply Russia can be defeated in 1941. How is this practicable? With a summer Barbarossa start, I only got to Dneiper-Daugava line in December of 1941. To even get to the outskirts of the 3 major objective Soviet cities of Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad, I'd imagine you'd have to start Barbarossa in the summer of 1940 at the latest? And getting to those 3 cities is just the beginning - at least against the AI, who spawns zombie-like hordes of free units.

Is there a secret sauce I am missing?





Elessar2 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/21/2021 8:04:21 PM)

Not defeated in '41 but crippled such that '42 is a cake walk. Get 2 of the 3 key cities (Moscow/Leningrad/Stalingrad), lots of cut off and destroyed enemy units.

Subs are critical to deny Lend-Lease to Russia if nothing else. As I said you get free subs in '41, gotta use them somewhere, kind of waste to sail them out w/ L0 tech.

I noted in the other thread that many of the most crucial techs can no longer be double-chitted. [Note I think this is a mistake from a scenario design perspective, and would much rather have 3 per chit +1 max chits across the board (so that the ones which currently allow 1 would get 2 and a 6% per turn average advancement. Adjust for that by giving a few more turns per year).]




Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/22/2021 10:51:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Not defeated in '41 but crippled such that '42 is a cake walk. Get 2 of the 3 key cities (Moscow/Leningrad/Stalingrad), lots of cut off and destroyed enemy units.




I can't even imagine taking 2 out of 3 major cities in 1941. How soon do you start Barbarosa then?




Elessar2 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/22/2021 10:02:34 PM)

Depends on the weather, but the last May turn or 1st June turn at the latest. Every turn is precious. Last game despite a 1-turn delay (~historical start date) I got Moscow & Rostov and several towns S/E of the latter; the Caucasus & Stalingrad quickly fell early the next summer.




Alcibiades73 -> RE: How do you "double chit"? (5/22/2021 10:06:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Depends on the weather, but the last May turn or 1st June turn at the latest. Every turn is precious. Last game despite a 1-turn delay (~historical start date) I got Moscow & Rostov and several towns S/E of the latter; the Caucasus & Stalingrad quickly fell early the next summer.


You start at 1941, that is, right? If so, I don't think that is a progress rate I can replicate with my mediocre blitzkrieg skills :(




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