Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (Full Version)

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incbob -> Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/12/2021 4:13:19 PM)

Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug?

Okay. On my Allied turn I put my subs in Fleet mode and moved to attack Japan’s Kido Butai (their CVs). I had to use all my movement and attack so the end result was that my Subs ended up being in Fleet Mode since, after all movement, I could not change them. If I could have put them on Raider mode I would have.
Then on the Japanese AI turn I see combat. Under the Combat reports it is listed as “Submarine Interdiction.” My subs are sunk.

#1 Am I understanding correctly that the Japanese fleets moves, my subs tried to intercept, and combat resulted?

#2 If the above is wrong isn’t it a bug?

#3 If #1 is right should submarines be allowed to either attack in raider mode or be allowed to be put in raider mode at the end of the turn? Currently with the rules as written subs cannot move and attack. To do so leaves them with 0 operation points and in Fleet Mode. This means they are guaranteed two turns of combat. No hit and run tactics are possible. Is it WAD that they are best used in interception mode.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/XMgBN3x.png[/image]




eskuche -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/12/2021 4:51:28 PM)

Follows the rules exactly as written. You can either blockade or convoy attack passively on raider mode. If you're surfacing to attack, you're in attack and intercept mode and thus vulnerable to counterattack. Note that here, even if you didn't interdict, you're one away from a non-ocean hex (Malaita) so would be vulnerable to surface attack regardless.




MemoryLeak -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/12/2021 4:53:21 PM)

I feel for you. I have had people try to explain this combat system to me for two weeks. One friend has written out a short version of the rules. The rules are so convoluted it is like pounding your head against a brick wall. They go against everything you have ever learned while playing all the other war games. Different doesn't always mean better. Too many if's and's or but's to ever remember all of the possible combinations of rules.

Good luck.




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/12/2021 5:04:51 PM)

#1 Yes if they were in fleet mode. You can always undo your move.
#2 Nope it was right. Also since you were near a coast they could open attack you.
#3 Submarines can move and attack. But if you move using all your operation in fleet mode then you get pursuit at the end of your move.

The best utilization for subs is...
Move them into an area in raider mode in the ocean hexes you can't be attacked but within 1 operation point range of a potential target.
On the next turn have your battles.
Use the sub to attack a suspected fleet counter that has a damaged CV. That now has a huge target profile.

Or use them for convoy duty.
Or use them as a threat at a port.

Subs are very hard to cost and ability balance in games. It is a sit and wait tool not a go charging in with horns blaring and flags waving tool. They are attackers of opportunity.




incbob -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/12/2021 6:20:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak
I feel for you. I have had people try to explain this combat system to me for two weeks. One friend has written out a short version of the rules. The rules are so convoluted it is like pounding your head against a brick wall. They go against everything you have ever learned while playing all the other war games. Different doesn't always mean better. Too many if's and's or but's to ever remember all of the possible combinations of rules.
Good luck.


I understand your pain and offer any service I can. The difficulty is not a result of the game system but from accurately portraying WWII naval warfare. It is complicated and there are a lot of and's and but's.

The reason I like this game is because it does naval warfare justice. Most games, the games you have played probably and refer to, treat naval warfare as little more than, "land combat but with water." This is why for one, I cannot play Strategic Command WWI. The Naval system is so bad they might as well not have navies in the game.

The difficulty come in understanding how the game system is portraying the realities of naval combat.

PS: This is why there are so few Pacific Theatre games and even far fewer good ones.




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/12/2021 9:03:12 PM)

Recreating it is unbelievable complicated. It is no easy feat.

I already have new ideas for WP2 for the whole fleet thing that will streamline the system.

Thanks for the compliment. Yes, this had its challenges. I had to rewrite the A.I. scripts 4.5x times + I don't know how many modifications to the code for the base tactical A.I.

WP naval system takes a little getting used to because no one has done it this way... ever lol.

I didn't know is WP was going to be a hit or I was going to be booed off the stage. I suspected it would do decent. It did better than decent.
Crossing fingers on WPP.




incbob -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/12/2021 10:18:08 PM)

One thing I fear is that the Pacific Theatre is not known as much as the European theatre and is is VERY different.

I also fear that people who have played other games that recreate the Pacific Theater will come to WPP and think those other games are "normal."




James Taylor -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/13/2021 2:56:54 PM)

I suspect that eventually we'll get a strategy guide that enumerates the specifics of each unit interactions, especially naval, surface and subsurface, naval and land based air.

The land units should be intuitive, except for maybe invasions and island hopping which seems pretty simple at this point.




Numdydar -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/13/2021 4:06:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

One thing I fear is that the Pacific Theatre is not known as much as the European theatre and is is VERY different.

I also fear that people who have played other games that recreate the Pacific Theater will come to WPP and think those other games are "normal."


And then you have War in the Pacific players come here and say 'Why is the naval system so basic' lol.




slo -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 1:14:39 AM)

I love the game...but if you really want it to be successful, it needs to be approachable to as many players as possible. That doesn't mean make it simple, no, but it does mean that the players need to know the rules well. A really good set of tutorials would do wonders for this game making it to the next level i feel.




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 1:45:12 AM)

Tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeBzqHBz73uSJssgEvP9Y-w





slo -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 1:47:43 PM)

thanks....i will take a look..

ask him to do some on Naval warfare, oil use and convoys as that seems to cause the most trouble for the new players..

I hope your game becomes very successful and I am trying to get all of my friends into it!




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 2:05:49 PM)

Thanks. It has sold 10% more than WarPlan in the 1st week. I expected it to undersell WarPlan. But apparently, no one has done a Pacific game that is playable in a reasonable amount of time for a very long time. So this fills that gap.




slo -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 3:19:21 PM)

I would assume your units sold will go up when it gets to steam or is Matrix such a concentration of war gamers that Steam doesn't really sell more units?




eskuche -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 3:31:49 PM)

Strategy gaming dojo is great as well, though I believe some of the nitpicked stuff may be incorrect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_L6W5dZZmc




incbob -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 3:36:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa
Thanks. It has sold 10% more than WarPlan in the 1st week. I expected it to undersell WarPlan. But apparently, no one has done a Pacific game that is playable in a reasonable amount of time for a very long time. So this fills that gap.



I think you also need to consider that you are a known commodity now. When Warplan came out no one knew whether it was quality so people bought and hoped. With WPP we see the quality we got with Warplan and know that it is a relatively safe buy.




FirstPappy -> RE: Japanese CVs attacked my Subs. What happened? Bug? (5/14/2021 6:09:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Thanks. It has sold 10% more than WarPlan in the 1st week. I expected it to undersell WarPlan. But apparently, no one has done a Pacific game that is playable in a reasonable amount of time for a very long time. So this fills that gap.


I agree with your assessment. I’d also add that WPP more than hits the mark (no pun intended) for combining Mark Herman’s “Empire of the Sun” and “Pacific War” into a playable PC format. Kudos.




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