DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (Full Version)

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MemoryLeak -> DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 12:49:52 AM)

Hi,

I hope I can get the sub attacks straight someday. I'm sure you guys hope I can too.

#1. I have two separate DD Grps both at 3/3 strength and plenty of oil at sea and within range of a Jap Sub Icon and the DD's are in fleet mode. I alternately try moving each DD grp next to the sub Icon. Nothing happens. I can't attack it. I place the cursor over it and it says two things can't occupy same hex. Is there anything I can do to attack it? Both of my DD grps are sitting on a convoy route near where the sub was located last turn. The sub moved.

#2 Is there any way other than transports to move air units to the war zones? Seems they should be able to catch rides on Carriers and just overload the deck but not allow flight operations. Or is this a balancing technique that has to be used for game playability?

Thanks,




eskuche -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 1:28:23 AM)

1. Anti-sub warfare is either a) automated by convoy defenses, b) by ground air, c) allowed when the sub is next to a coastal hex, or d) in defense. Placing DD and CV on convoy routes increases the automatic fighting in (a) but does not let you attack manually. See naval combat permission table on page 91.

2. They can fly if within range, but otherwise you'll have to transport them.




MemoryLeak -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 1:38:40 AM)

Thanks,

I even printed the tables on 91 and I think starting on page 89. Anyway, okay.

And I am printing your post too. taping it to the monitor.




Rasputitsa -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 11:11:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

Hi,

I hope I can get the sub attacks straight someday. I'm sure you guys hope I can too.

#1. I have two separate DD Grps both at 3/3 strength and plenty of oil at sea and within range of a Jap Sub Icon and the DD's are in fleet mode. I alternately try moving each DD grp next to the sub Icon. Nothing happens. I can't attack it. I place the cursor over it and it says two things can't occupy same hex. Is there anything I can do to attack it? Both of my DD grps are sitting on a convoy route near where the sub was located last turn. The sub moved.



It's always difficult representing Subs in a Strategic game, as you are really looking at a map in an central HQ, where the Sub counters do not represent the actual subs, but more that this represents reports of Subs operating in a certain areas.

Mostly no one knows where the actual Subs are until the first torpedo is fired, then the convoys will automatically start defending themselves, provided you have supplied convoy escorts on that route and with the help of any other naval groups, with a sub hunting capability, which may been have placed nearby, within 12 hexes (see Manual extract).

Air units have the advantage in that they might surprise submarines on the surface and they can cover a greater area, giving more chance of Sub detection when aircraft are sent to patrol/attack the suspected area (hex), or subs could be caught, by surface units in shallow seas, where they are more vulnerable.

So overall the game representation is quite accurate, you supply convoys with escorts and place other capable naval units along convoy routes, so that they can add to the anti-sub defence when/if convoys are attacked.

Manual : Sub Hunters Naval fleets on a convoy hex icon will protect all friendly convoys routes within a 24 hex radius by adding a bonus to any escorts protecting those routes vs subs within the radius. Carrier groups add a 1% bonus to convoy escort damage chances vs subs.
Destroyer groups add a 0.5% bonus to convoy escort damage chances vs subs.


You don't necessarily know where the Subs will attack, so placing your naval Sub hunting support groups along convoy routes is going to be by intuition and guesswork, unless a pattern emerges.

Frustratingly 'cat and mouse', as it was.


EDIT :

Where are shallow seas ?

I have a Sub Grp on picket duty by Canton Island and wondering about vulnerability to surface action, so are all non-deep blue hexes counted as 'shallow', or is it just the very light blue areas which are shallow ?


[image]local://upfiles/3593/5DAFA48B32AA454FB070D208ABBEE96E.jpg[/image]




gwgardner -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 1:52:36 PM)

I believe both of the lighter shades of blue are shallow. You can do a quick test - start a hotseat game, park a sub in such a hex, see if you can attack it.




AlvaroSousa -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 2:24:20 PM)

Both lighter shades are shallow water for Patrol craft.

Submarines need not to be surrounded by only water hexes to be attacked by naval forces.




Rasputitsa -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 2:42:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I believe both of the lighter shades of blue are shallow. You can do a quick test - start a hotseat game, park a sub in such a hex, see if you can attack it.


Did I read somewhere that Subs were vulnerable in hexes which contain sea coast ?




gwgardner -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 2:51:03 PM)

Yes




Rasputitsa -> RE: DD vs SUB & Air Grps Ferrying (5/6/2021 3:07:44 PM)

Here is an example of a surface attack on a Sub in medium lighter shade of blue, so coastline not required and all shades of shallow water make Subs vulnerable, except that they are not always detected in shallow water, so can sometimes avoid attack.


[image]local://upfiles/3593/68A60CACFFF34CCA952E39BACD85B219.jpg[/image]


Well I've learnt more about Sub operations and, overall, the game looks good, whilst the Sub in this case is in a 'High Reconnaissance' hex, so the variability and nuances in the under water war are enormous. Good Job ! [8D]

P.S. IJN Sub Group was destroyed with no loss to surface ships, thanks Alvaro and Gary.




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