Kaiten (Full Version)

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castor troy -> Kaiten (4/17/2021 9:54:47 AM)

What are your experiences using Kaitens? As they won't show up before very late 44 I haven't seen any AARs that I remember having seen these in combat.

How do they work? Do they even work?




Sardaukar -> RE: Kaiten (4/17/2021 9:58:54 AM)

Never seen them used either...curious too. AFAIK Okha had some problems too.




Ian R -> RE: Kaiten (4/17/2021 10:54:21 AM)

I have seen the special Betty model carrying Okhas mentioned in late war combat reports - usually they take some losses from allied CAP and abort.




BBfanboy -> RE: Kaiten (4/17/2021 11:35:42 PM)

A few players have tried Kaitens and had about as much success as the RL ones did - very little. AFAIK the AO Mississiniwa at Ulithi was the only Allied ship sunk by a Kaiten.




Platoonist -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 1:30:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

A few players have tried Kaitens and had about as much success as the RL ones did - very little. AFAIK the AO Monongahela at Ulithi was the only Allied ship sunk by a Kaiten.



The US destroyer escort Underhill was also lost to a Kaiten attack on July 24th 1945. But, that about rounds it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Underhill_(DE-682)

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/USS_Underhill_%28DE-682%29_underway%2C_circa_in_late_1943.jpg/450px-USS_Underhill_%28DE-682%29_underway%2C_circa_in_late_1943.jpg[/img]




Dili -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 5:53:55 AM)

How many time was attempted its use IRL is needed to know it efficacy.




Platoonist -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 9:21:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

How many time was attempted its use IRL is needed to know it efficacy.


In return for sinking Mississinewa, Underhill, and damaging some landing craft, the Japanese expended 80 Kaiten and their crew in combat, another 15 in training accidents, and eight mother submarines with over 600 men.

As always, the Japanese were given to exaggerated impressions of success due to poor intelligence and wishful thinking which may have contributed to their persisting with a weapon which was likely inferior to a conventional torpedo. During the attack on Ulithi Atoll which claimed the Mississinewa, the Japanese made exaggerated claims of three CVs and two BBs sunk. The tendency of the Japanese to claim a kill every time the crew of a mother ship heard a Kaiten explode or saw smoke meant that realistic damage assessments were never made, or at least never published, though a change of strategy from attacking fleet anchorages to attacking convoys suggests that the IJN leadership were aware that their claims were suspect.




Dili -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 9:32:52 AM)

Thanks. That is incidentally something we can't replicate much in game, we already know much what work and what not. We for example know in the day when we lost a submarine.




Platoonist -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 6:27:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks. That is incidentally something we can't replicate much in game, we already know much what work and what not. We for example know in the day when we lost a submarine.


Speaking of known losses, I recently finished reading Ian Toll's Twilight of the Gods about the last two years of the Pacific War. One of the more fascinating passages was about the air-sea battle off Formosa in October 1944. Due to wild claims of successes in battle by Japanese pilots, declarations of a phantasmic sea victory begin to resound in Japan. The IGHQ stated that Japanese warplanes had sunk ten carriers eleven battleships, three cruisers and a destroyer, along with a long list of American cripples. Japanese newspapers and media reported 500,000 tons of US shipping sunk and 26,000 sailors killed in action. Emperor Hirohito declared a public holiday and Japan went on a week-long binge of speeches, rallies and partying like it was 1941. The IJA even changed its Philippine strategy as a result of this 'victory' and started reinforcing Leyte instead of holding pat on Luzon.

Of course, the cold truth of this fantasy was that two USN cruisers had been torpedoed, but got had away safely. Most senior Japanese admirals knew it was a mirage, but kept their mouths shut. All in all, it was the sort of monumental self-delusion no game system can ever fully simulate.




Dili -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 6:40:29 PM)

Did not know that one, but you say the admirals know it was fake.




Platoonist -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 6:52:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Did not know that one, but you say the admirals know it was fake.


Admiral Fukudome on Formosa said he knew by the end of that same day that the damage to the US Third Fleet was slight. Admiral Ugaki commented later in his dairy, "There are occasions when exaggeration may be necessary to uplift morale, but those in a position to direct operations mustn't kid themselves by exaggerating the results achieved."

Looking back on the episode from a postwar perspective, a Japanese journalist who had covered the IGHQ press conference concluded: "Theirs were not intentional lies, but rather signs of the acute anxiety, the desire everyone felt for something good to happen."

So yeah, all is well. Take your happy pill. Sounds to me like a certain degree of self-delusion was still in effect well after the event.




Dili -> RE: Kaiten (4/18/2021 8:26:12 PM)

TY. Seem even a conscious self delusion.




spence -> RE: Kaiten (4/19/2021 4:20:19 AM)

quote:

Admiral Ugaki commented later in his dairy, "There are occasions when exaggeration may be necessary to uplift morale, but those in a position to direct operations mustn't kid themselves by exaggerating the results achieved.


Adm Ugaki, the 'realist', who ruled that it would be "illegal" for the officer playing the Americans in the May 27th wargame on Yamato prior to Operation AF to preposition his carriers NE of Midway.




Dili -> RE: Kaiten (4/19/2021 5:39:37 AM)

Yeah. I don't know if there are a book on aesthetic/ideological(from ideas not political) of war. For example the decisive battle concept, today the big carriers, in the past the battleship, French jeune école, the bombing always get trough, etc. Militaries adhere to narratives - which are also systems of bureaucratic/self interest power - like everyone else. Then came war and changes/challenges those peace time perceptions that were believed by thousands and many of them great minds. What i find surprising is how small and weak are the testing/simulation of those ideas.




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