Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (Full Version)

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MrsWargamer -> Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (3/7/2021 9:09:22 PM)

Hmm, ok, so it is based on a board game, and the board game looks suspiciously like a game called ASL which was originally called Squad Leader.

Obvious remark. ASL is owned by Hasborg, no that's not a typo :)
And they suck, well I think they do myself. I have no kind thoughts for Hasborg. Certainly nothing a lady says in public.

Will it have multi-story buildings? Hmm, I feel an urge to mention the first scenario didn't use them. It played just fine. Squad Leader became famous long before ASL was all the rage.

Can Valor and Victory be a good game? Well, to be honest, I have not played the board game. And it appears it has been on the market for quite some time too. I think I still had my ASL back when VaV appeared. Might explain why I didn't notice it.

I'm thinking of investing time into seeing if I want to get it. It looks good enough.

Will the PC adaption of the board game be a good thing? Well, porting a complex turned board game is no small trick. I paid well past 100 bucks for my Matrix Games release of World in Flames. 3 wonderful hardcover manuals. But, wow, what a complex program to make. Was it truly a 'success'? Hard to say, I don't play it anymore than I do Tigers on the Hunt. Which is sadly very little. A success gets played a lot.

So the question is, how well will Yobo be with adapting VaV from board game to PC for VaV.
And if VaV is not planned to have multi-story buildings, will that actually matter?

I'm following closely Second Front, also a squad tactical game, also suspiciously like SL/ASL. It DOES have multi-story buildings. It also has incredible-looking graphics. But here's the thing. I WANT an ASL game to actually LOOK like ASL. That means a turn-based design, generally a flat-looking top-down perspective counter artwork experience. Animations are awesome indeed, but not required. How much computer muscle will be devoted to just handling to eye candy? I have a modern computer, lots of processor muscle, NO graphics card because I don't play mainstream action games. But I need the AI able to do a lot of counter management if it's going to be allowed into my game experience.

So this hardcore ASL veteran is making it known, multi-story is nice, not a deal killer though if it is missing. How much of the war will I get to fight? Because a handful of Normandy is kinda brief. ASL has spoiled me in that regard. I want to fight all of the war, eventually.
Will there be enough DLC add ons?
The price isn't an object. Let's face it, if you have an ASLers attention, the cost is nothing to us. ASL players will drop thousands on what they want. 20 DLCs for 10-20 bucks a go is nothing. So what the game ends up being worth several hundred. MY ASL collection is worth about 5 THOUSAND.

What I want to know, is will VaV be a cute game of squad tactical in Normandy that looks amazingly like Squad Leader. Or can it become something as timeless as the 20+ year dominance of Steel Panthers, which is currently what you are competing with.

Because you are not competing with ASL, you are competing with Second Front, you are competing with Steel Panthers.




joeyeti -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (3/8/2021 2:46:46 AM)

No multi-story buildings in the game, it is not that granular.

EDIT: And no, this will not be Steel Panthers 4, that is a totally different type of a game.




rico21 -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (3/8/2021 2:37:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Hmm, ok, so it is based on a board game, and the board game looks suspiciously like a game called ASL which was originally called Squad Leader.

Obvious remark. ASL is owned by Hasborg, no that's not a typo :)
And they suck, well I think they do myself. I have no kind thoughts for Hasborg. Certainly nothing a lady says in public.

Will it have multi-story buildings? Hmm, I feel an urge to mention the first scenario didn't use them. It played just fine. Squad Leader became famous long before ASL was all the rage.

Can Valor and Victory be a good game?

Yes, it can and thanks to join us Lucky Lady.




rico21 -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (3/8/2021 2:43:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Because you are not competing with ASL, you are competing with Second Front, you are competing with Steel Panthers.

You are absolutely right, the potential of a game is always immense, its realization seldom satisfactory.
What makes the difference is the team that makes it and supports it.[sm=00000028.gif][sm=00000436.gif]




joeyeti -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (3/8/2021 2:56:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
... you are competing with Second Front, you are competing with Steel Panthers.


Not really. Steel Panthers is way more granular.
And judging from the one screenshot for Second Front on Steam, that shows the Tank characteristics, that game is also more granular (i.e. more simulational).

Valor&Victory has a few types of MGs and equipment, a few AFVs per side with different AT and AP characteristics and Armor types and that is it. Much stuff is abstracted there, for ease of play.




rico21 -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (3/8/2021 3:07:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joeyeti

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
... you are competing with Second Front, you are competing with Steel Panthers.


Not really. Steel Panthers is way more granular.
And judging from the one screenshot for Second Front on Steam, that shows the Tank characteristics, that game is also more granular (i.e. more simulational).

Valor&Victory has a few types of MGs and equipment, a few AFVs per side with different AT and AP characteristics and Armor types and that is it. Much stuff is abstracted there, for ease of play.

If you known Mrs Wargamer, you would know that you have no right to speak ill of Steel Panthers.[:D]




yobowargames -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (3/8/2021 9:26:02 PM)

You raise some good points MrsWargamer.

The reason I picked Valor & Victory to convert to a PC game was that it has a nice simplicity to it but has the feel of great tactical boardgames like SL. No, it doesn't have multilevel buildings or sewers but it does have that dreadful feeling you have when you move a squad into the open only to see it mauled by an enemy MG.

With an undertaking like this, you have to start somewhere and that somewhere is Normandy '44 in the first release. However, we do plan to continue developing this game with Arnhem and Stalingrad being on the cards for future expansions.

We are two guys developing this in our spare time. So our first priority is getting the initial release out there "build it and they will come" and hopefully the game will resonate with a large part of the Matrix Games audience.





MrsWargamer -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (4/4/2021 5:39:30 PM)

Granular.

Interesting term.

Is that code speak?

In my universe, granular means something like coarse grain salt. I bake eh.

How does 'granular' matter between SL/ASL, Steel Panthers, Tigers on the Hunt, Second Front, and this design? Choose your words precisely gentlemen.

At the moment, even without multi-story buildings, Tigers on the Hunt is closer to SL/ASL than is Steel Panthers. Combat Mission is 3d and really, it bears no resemblance at all other than the same time period. So sometimes 'more' isn't better. Second Front is possibly going to be a great experience, but while it has multi-story, graphically it is getting closer to Combat Mission. So it might be, that Valor and Victory might remain closer to Tigers on the Hunt, but regardless of not having multi-story, it might deliver a Squad Leader/ASL fix than not.

Because with the ASL mod applied to Tigers on the Hunt, I'm a lot happier with it with the mod, than without the mod, but the game at the software level is still what I wanted. Looking down on a board game, with board game counters. Multi-story building are nice, but not absolutely required. Remember, The Guards Counter Attack didn't have them.

There's a limit on how much simulational I require.

It's a board game. It's not a movie.
I don't need to hear the dead dying. I don't need to see their blood. I sure don't wish to smell the dead. I'll pass on dead livestock littering the fields. I don't want to see screaming children and civilians. I don't care if the troops have eaten that day. I'm not interested in watching them redistribute ammo loads. I don't care what they think of Sgt Steiner. Please keep the music neutral.
Make this game easy to mod and it will not be gone next year. We argamers are a fickle bunch. SQUIRREL!!




joeyeti -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (4/4/2021 6:04:35 PM)

"Moddable" in what way? As the game currently stands you can basically alter the graphics for the units (as those are pictures), map hexes (as those are pictures too, even though composite). I believe map editing/creation is planned for the future, so far you can only create scenarios on existing maps.

If you mean "moddable rules/system", I don't think a 2-man team in their spare time has resources to change the code base in such a huge way - but that is ultimately a question for them.




joeyeti -> RE: Water is wet, and other silly observations :) (4/4/2021 6:07:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
If you known Mrs Wargamer, you would know that you have no right to speak ill of Steel Panthers.[:D]

I loved Steel Panthers back when I had time to play the game.
"More granular" means "having much more detail and mechanisms".

But Steel Panthers is a totally different league than Valor&Victory and VV will never approach that type of play.




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