Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (Full Version)

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arvcran2 -> Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 1:28:50 PM)

Based on what I understand from the manual, units can receive Replacement Troops via Operational Logistics.

I have many units within 50 AP from roads with 'current' logistical points available that failed to receive replacements.

Am I looking at the wrong information here or is there something amiss? It looks like SHQ is my source of all resources and that is where my problem is 0% available (looking at bottle neck). I guess I either need a distributed SHQ or significantly more initial Logistical Pts at my Capital.

If I order replacement troops from the units themselves does this change the 'source' of resources or do they have to come from my Capital?

Am I making sense?





Soar_Slitherine -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 3:32:50 PM)

Yes, all logistics and replacements have to come from the SHQ, and there needs to be sufficient logistics points available all along the path. The SHQ often becomes a bottleneck, but you can overpower it by building more logistics infrastructure - if you are capped out on the logistics infrastructure in the city hex, it's possible to build more truck or rail stations in nearby hexes, and you can have a look at this post to find out how to lay those out efficiently. The beginning of that thread also includes a pretty comprehensive logistics guide.

If your units need replacements badly, you can select the SHQ unit, click on 'Unit Admin' in the right-side bar, and set 'Zone => SHQ' to 0%. If you haven't changed the other settings, it should guarantee that some replacements get through. However, it will deprioritize resource shipments from your zones to your SHQ, which can limit construction and production or lead to starvation if you don't have plenty of food in the SHQ stocks, so use it with care - if it ends up causing problems, you can change it back. It does not stop your SHQ from retrieving resources from zones using any logistics points left over after doing everything else.

If your logistics are inadequate, you probably have a backlog of resources in various zones waiting to be shipped to the SHQ, and it may take some time after improving your logistics for the backlog to get cleared. You can check your zone resource stocks you under 'MNG' in the top bar, by clicking 'Expand' on the top right (ZONE Inv). Alternatively you can check up on individual zones in the Items tab of the bottom bar.




redrum68 -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 3:34:55 PM)

Replacements always come from your SHQ. You need enough logistics points along road/rail to within a few hexes of the unit. If you have a 0% remaining right next to your SHQ then you need to most likely upgrade your truck stop.




arvcran2 -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 6:36:21 PM)

I have a level II now upgrading to level III truck station at SHQ. And yes all the Zones are backlogged at getting resources to SHQ, especially metal!!! Dang LOL. Need metal to build Train Stations and railroads!.




zgrssd -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 6:51:21 PM)

quote:

It looks like SHQ is my source of all resources and that is where my problem is 0% available (looking at bottle neck). I guess I either need a distributed SHQ or significantly more initial Logistical Pts at my Capital.

That is indeed the case:
No Zone will supply any military units or give resources to another Zone.
No Military units will exchange subunits or Models directly.
All Supply and Replacement involves the SHQ colleecting/retrieving and distributing the resources. It is the center of your entire miltiary supply chain.

Operational logistics really is just a minor extension of the normal supply network that troops get. Otherwise you would have to build roads to every single frontline unit, even as they advanced.




zgrssd -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 6:56:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: arvcran2

I have a level II now upgrading to level III truck station at SHQ. And yes all the Zones are backlogged at getting resources to SHQ, especially metal!!! Dang LOL. Need metal to build Train Stations and railroads!.

It is easy for a backlog to sneak up on you.
Especially when you keep advancing and build in the wake of your advance, your Logistics can quickly become horribly overloaded.

And as replacement comes even after retreival in the Logistics phase, they are among the first things where you notice something is not quite right.

My best advice is to stop all offenses. Maybe even fall back onto more defensible terrain. Only fight defensively for a while. That way the Logistis used for Fuel and Ammo Supplies is minimized, allowing that backlog to be cleared.
Keep in mind that only stuff that is inthe Zone/SHQ storage at when you hit end turn is avalible for next truns consumption, supply and construction. So a backlog can actually limit your ability to deliver.

Consdier taking a look at your bottleneck view. Maybe post a few images of your used points/bottlenecks if you got a question.
"Nobody has ever learned playing Shadow Empire without starving his troops at least once.




BlueTemplar -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 8:29:32 PM)

I have recently captured a Major AI's Capital while most of his army was away taking over the third Major AI.

That city is almost bigger than my 4 other cities combined !

Now I have some logistic issues as the AI has started to move his troops to take his former home back.

I'm even considering to "move" the SHQ to this front city by creating a 2nd SHQ (20PP, -2PP/turn), then disbanding the 1rst SHQ !

On the other hand, this is probably a bad idea for now, as this huge city doesn't produce much for now (as I jacked the worker salary waay up waiting for the QOL score to go up), and it looks like my most used tank model weighs 25, while the weight of all the items to produce it is 80...

(Not to mention that it's too late to do that now that the fighting has picked up again, as this seems to cause 0 items delivered for a turn and no SHQ commander for a turn. And I would need to build extra storage in my capital to hold 1rst SHQ's items when disbanding it.)




zgrssd -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 8:56:24 PM)

quote:

I'm even considering to "move" the SHQ to this front city by creating a 2nd SHQ (20PP, -2PP/turn), then disbanding the 1rst SHQ !

Pretty sure you can startegic move your 1st SHQ, same way you can move any "immobile" unit with Strategic move.

The most important thing for a SHQ is a really good truck and train connection (as in: Have a station right in it's hex). It will have to:
- send out all resources needed by any Zone, that the zones does not produce itself (wich includes all sudden increases in demand, say from a new Construction). This further includes all the Food used by public workers (note: As water to assets travels for free, having local public farms can be pretty beneficial for logistics).
- Supply every unit.
- Retreive all the excess from every zone, to have something to send out next turn.

Only Water, Fuel, Power and IP to zones travels for free. So that way at least your economy can never truly stall due to logistics.




BlueTemplar -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 10:28:18 PM)

Oh wow, you can, but with all the stored items it's extremely heavy ! (nearly 30kdat for me !)




zgrssd -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/26/2021 11:30:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Oh wow, you can, but with all the stored items it's extremely heavy ! (nearly 30kdat for me !)

I verified it and reported it as a bug. It really should not incur the full cost for Logistics again. Especially given that 99% of the stuff is physically stored in the Zones wich only "rent" out the Storage to the SHQ.




BlueTemplar -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 12:04:28 AM)

Hmm, but game-wise they *did* have to logistically move the items to the SHQ for storage... I guess it's that storage points are also moved (for free) which makes it hard to square with real-world logistics !




zgrssd -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 12:15:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Hmm, but game-wise they *did* have to logistically move the items to the SHQ for storage... I guess it's that storage points are also moved (for free) which makes it hard to square with real-world logistics !

Yes, they do move Storage Points for free. So technically the resources are still in those Zones Storage. And if the Zone needs that storage, it throws your SHQ's stuff out.

Of course ideally that means we can entirely ignore the Logistics cost for the resources. Just the troops in the SHQ should be plenty of weight, to not make it a trivial move.




arvcran2 -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 4:34:23 AM)

I think allowing Zone to SHQ exceeding cap is a good thing considering the resources may be requested right back to build stuff on next turn :).




arvcran2 -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 4:36:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Yes, all logistics and replacements have to come from the SHQ, and there needs to be sufficient logistics points available all along the path. The SHQ often becomes a bottleneck, but you can overpower it by building more logistics infrastructure - if you are capped out on the logistics infrastructure in the city hex, it's possible to build more truck or rail stations in nearby hexes, and you can have a look at this post to find out how to lay those out efficiently. The beginning of that thread also includes a pretty comprehensive logistics guide.

If your units need replacements badly, you can select the SHQ unit, click on 'Unit Admin' in the right-side bar, and set 'Zone => SHQ' to 0%. If you haven't changed the other settings, it should guarantee that some replacements get through. However, it will deprioritize resource shipments from your zones to your SHQ, which can limit construction and production or lead to starvation if you don't have plenty of food in the SHQ stocks, so use it with care - if it ends up causing problems, you can change it back. It does not stop your SHQ from retrieving resources from zones using any logistics points left over after doing everything else.

If your logistics are inadequate, you probably have a backlog of resources in various zones waiting to be shipped to the SHQ, and it may take some time after improving your logistics for the backlog to get cleared. You can check your zone resource stocks you under 'MNG' in the top bar, by clicking 'Expand' on the top right (ZONE Inv). Alternatively you can check up on individual zones in the Items tab of the bottom bar.


Thanks for that link ... my head is still spinning from that read ... so difficult to grasp all the interacting forces to properly plan and administrate :).




BlueTemplar -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 10:48:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Hmm, but game-wise they *did* have to logistically move the items to the SHQ for storage... I guess it's that storage points are also moved (for free) which makes it hard to square with real-world logistics !

Yes, they do move Storage Points for free. So technically the resources are still in those Zones Storage. And if the Zone needs that storage, it throws your SHQ's stuff out.

Of course ideally that means we can entirely ignore the Logistics cost for the resources. Just the troops in the SHQ should be plenty of weight, to not make it a trivial move.


Well no, they aren't, since the items have depleted your logistic points while they were shipped to the SHQ. It's just that somehow, some fraction of the storage buildings have been shipped to the SHQ too. I guess the best real-world parallel would be containers, except those still have non-zero weight !




arvcran2 -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 3:20:56 PM)

Priority distribution is they topic here I think. The game puts replacements last on the list from what I understand. The manual suggests placing a percentage configuration on the SHQ's Logistics distribution of points for guaranteeing some replacements.




Soar_Slitherine -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 3:32:29 PM)

My recent experience is that on the default SHQ settings, the supply system will spend more points in the Zone=>SHQ phase than allotted by the SHQ settings, leaving none for replacements, if there is a resource backlog. However, after setting Zone=>SHQ to 0%, that limit was actually respected and replacements did go through. This is with beta 1.07.05, even though there was supposed to be a fix to the supply system not always respecting the SHQ limits in 1.07.02 (and it's not marked as only applying to new games).




zgrssd -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (1/27/2021 4:17:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: arvcran2

Priority distribution is they topic here I think. The game puts replacements last on the list from what I understand. The manual suggests placing a percentage configuration on the SHQ's Logistics distribution of points for guaranteeing some replacements.

Replacements being last makes perfect sense. If you can not send reinforcements, at least on that line the preceeding steps tax out logistics.
If you can not Supply the Zones production, Supply the Troops in the field and retreive production the last thing you shold do is add troops to the front that you will not be able to feed and arm.

Never play around with the SHQ percentages unless you really know what you are doing. 90% you kill the economy that is feeding the troops doing that! 5% chacne of not archieving anything. 5% chance of actually helping.




Soar_Slitherine -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (2/6/2021 10:28:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine
If your units need replacements badly, you can select the SHQ unit, click on 'Unit Admin' in the right-side bar, and set 'Zone => SHQ' to 0%. If you haven't changed the other settings, it should guarantee that some replacements get through. However, it will deprioritize resource shipments from your zones to your SHQ, which can limit construction and production or lead to starvation if you don't have plenty of food in the SHQ stocks, so use it with care - if it ends up causing problems, you can change it back. It does not stop your SHQ from retrieving resources from zones using any logistics points left over after doing everything else.

Okay, so after checking the manual to figure out some logistics issues, I have to correct myself here - if there are logistics points left over after going through all the logistics phases, the game does not do another pass to spend the points, it saves the leftover points for actions during the player turn, like strategic transfer, etc instead. What it will actually do, is it adds any unused portion of the max% from previous phases to the max% for the next phase. This means that if the max% from the first three logistics phases adds up to 100%, as it does on the default settings, and you have a backlog of resources in your zones compared to available logistics points, no replacements will ever get shipped out.




BlueTemplar -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (2/6/2021 10:57:25 PM)

Wait, what about the 2nd, reverse pass ?
I had ended up with 0 remaining logistic points on my SHQ a few times, I'm pretty sure that was caused by the 2nd pass for the Zone => SHQ backlog ? (With the (default?) 40-40-30-30 percentages.)




zgrssd -> RE: Replacement Troops V Logistical Points Available (2/7/2021 1:44:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine
If your units need replacements badly, you can select the SHQ unit, click on 'Unit Admin' in the right-side bar, and set 'Zone => SHQ' to 0%. If you haven't changed the other settings, it should guarantee that some replacements get through. However, it will deprioritize resource shipments from your zones to your SHQ, which can limit construction and production or lead to starvation if you don't have plenty of food in the SHQ stocks, so use it with care - if it ends up causing problems, you can change it back. It does not stop your SHQ from retrieving resources from zones using any logistics points left over after doing everything else.

Okay, so after checking the manual to figure out some logistics issues, I have to correct myself here - if there are logistics points left over after going through all the logistics phases, the game does not do another pass to spend the points, it saves the leftover points for actions during the player turn, like strategic transfer, etc instead. What it will actually do, is it adds any unused portion of the max% from previous phases to the max% for the next phase. This means that if the max% from the first three logistics phases adds up to 100%, as it does on the default settings, and you have a backlog of resources in your zones compared to available logistics points, no replacements will ever get shipped out.

Making one pass with the Limits and one pass without, is the better solution.
Because that way, at least lowever entries atleast have a chance to be processed, before for any leftover stuff is processed.

By default the first 3 phases of the logistics can already sum up to over 100%. 40+40+30 = 110. There is no transfer from previous turns needed to breach the 100% cap, just some serious uses of points. And maybe a serious bottleneck along the line (as often happens with distant front units/newly conquered cities).




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