RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (Full Version)

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AlvaroSousa -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/9/2021 5:59:23 PM)




ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

WarPlan Pacific is moddable.

If you want open up Pacific 1941 in the editor, change it from 14 day turns to 7 day turns and save as Pacific 1941-7 day Then play it out.

It's pretty easy to do.

Besides the number of days in a turn, what else is moddable?

Most of the game. But the editor isn't the most user friendly. Should be easy to load a scenario, save it as another name, then modify it as you like. I'll answer questions about the editor but if you botch up the data in a scenario and get lock ups and crashes I can't hunt down your custom scenario error because I have no idea what you changed and didn't change.

That happened once in WarPlan where someone changed the scenario data. They messed up the values, didn't tell me everything they changed, and I spent hours looking over their modified scenario trying to figure out what they did. Time passed so fast I didn't realize I lost 1/2 a day of work. I found the issue eventually and they forgot they changed said X value that was out of scope for the engine.

Simple changes like small modifications to unit values are fine. Like you want to increase artillery +1 for Soviets because you feel I don't give them enough credit, that's fine. But if you add +10 you will break the game in terms of balance. I will not help you readjust all the values changing the data structure. That makes it a whole new game structure.

AlvaroSousa -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/9/2021 6:01:27 PM)




ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You will have double production for sure. The only thing I would do is halve the resources on the map to adjust for the time scale difference... maybe. If there is that much action you will also have twice the damage so maybe not.

Movement should be fine.

Be nice if that was a scenario startup option which automatically halved everything to play weekly if desired.

The game is balanced for 2 weeks matching WarPlan so eventually I can merge the two. The editor is there to change 14 days to 7 days. You then save it "Pacific 1941 - 7d" and tada that's permanent.

AlvaroSousa -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/9/2021 6:13:31 PM)


ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

I'm very tempted, but nothing Alvaro ever says about the AI opponent gives me much confidence. I guess he is honest when he assesses it - but he never is wholehearted about the AI, and I do not want to play PBEM, do not want to play a human opponent. And everything Alvaro says about the game suggests to me that it is designed for PBEM. It's the same when he talks about Warplan Europe - he's never giving the impression that the AI works too well, always giving the impression that this is a fantastic game between two humans. He stresses that, and is lukewarm about the AI. But many, many people don't want to play PBEM, for a whole variety of reasons. So I'm guessing that's going to limit things. I never bought Warplan Europe because of Alvaro's less than thrilling endorsement of his own AI opponent, and I guess for the same reasons I won't be buying Pacific, though I would love to have a good, manageable-scale Pacific title with a really excellent AI opponent. This is not it, right, Alvaro?

I don't exaggerate the capacities of A.I. I love Strategic Command 3 Europe. Without reading the rules I beat the Axis on the historical levels in France 1940. Does that mean the A.I. is bad? No. It just means I need to adjust up the levels. So when you read or hear me in an interview about design I am telling the truth about any game that uses A.I. You can dump the WarPlan A.I. in Unity of Command and it will give you a solid challenge because that is a small fixed scenario with set objectives that is easy for the A.I. to handle. But as games grow in complexity the challenges for the A.I. also grow exponentially.

The difference between the complexity of Chess and Go are mind blowing. They programmed Big Blue 20 some years ago. Go looks like a simpler game but it is vastly more complex. So complex they build a learning A.I. to play millions of game to teach itself on a server farm on how to beat the best human in the world using a neural net. A human couldn't possibly reasonably program that.

If you are a casual gamer WarPlan A.I. will be fun. If you are the best wargamer in the world of course it won't be a challenge without pumping in some experience levels.

Players beat the crap out of the Russian A.I. in War in the East. It doesn't mean the game's A.I. is terrible. It's a complex game and the A.I. needs help.

I hear often players complaining about Hearts of Iron A.I. It's a hugely complex game.

Ask on the WarPlan forum if the players who only play the A.I. enjoy it. Me, I am a 35 year wargamer. There is no A.I. that can beat me in a game like WarPlan or Strategic Command or War in the East without help.

From what I have read from reviews about 1/2 the players feel challenged by the A.I. at standard levels. Others bump up the strength of the A.I. for a good challenge and see how far they go.

But I did learn a valuable lesson from your post for future interviews. I will be sure to mention how other players feel about the A.I. I am a bit of a perfectionist on A.I.

Look if you really want to try it. Get it on Steam, if you don't like it, return it. I have refunded 2-3 games on Steam I didn't enjoy myself.

Phoenix100 -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/9/2021 7:00:24 PM)

Thanks Alvaro. I appreciate the reply. Yes, I have some stuff published myself, and being also a perfectionist, I had to learn not to inadvertently run-down my own stuff in front of other people (who might be buyers)!!! Lol. I think you should stress that the AI can give you a good game with the levels suitably adjusted, if that is the case. :)

But I am between what you describe as 'a casual gamer' and 'the best wargamer in the world'. Can the Pacific AI, with levels suitably adjusted, give me a reasonable game? Meaning one that looks a bit like what might have happened in reality? I always only ever play roughly historically, so no real surprises for it.

Numdydar -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/10/2021 1:48:58 PM)


ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

WarPlan Pacific is moddable.

If you want open up Pacific 1941 in the editor, change it from 14 day turns to 7 day turns and save as Pacific 1941-7 day Then play it out.

It's pretty easy to do.

Unfortunately there is a lot more to creating a weekly turn system than that. Which is Hubert actually made the mod to do weekly turns in SC Europe.

Just off the top of my head some of the changes needed are:

- Movement rates
- Production
- Strategic movement/capacity
- Possibly combat values
- Supply usage/transport of supplies
- Research times
- Plus I'm sure there is a lot more

So it is not just something you can simply open up the editor and change one value. The length of the turn affects almost every system in the game. Plus I doubt that everything that the turn length impacts can be changed in the Editor.

I think your answer, Alvaro, above is a disservice to the community by implying that 'Hey just change this one value and you can have weekly turns.' when there is a lot more to the changes needed to the game than that.

I understand if you do not want to do the work involved to provide weekly turns at this point in development. If that is the case, then just say so. It is your game after all, not mine lol.

But I will not be buying this game as much as I want to support the effort to make a PTO game simply because the Pacific Theater deserves a better treatment than 2 week turns which I consider an effort to please the MP crowd only.

Just my two cents anyway.

AlvaroSousa -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/12/2021 9:09:44 PM)

I said you can change it. I am not going to guess on how well it will run. I thought my comments implied I'm sticking to 2 week turns. 1 week turns start making WPP in the unplayable category.

2 weeks is the sweet spot.

FirstPappy -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/13/2021 1:46:01 AM)


ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

1 week turns start making WPP in the unplayable category.

2 weeks is the sweet spot.


Numdydar -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/16/2021 6:44:14 PM)


ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I said you can change it. I am not going to guess on how well it will run. I thought my comments implied I'm sticking to 2 week turns. 1 week turns start making WPP in the unplayable category.

2 weeks is the sweet spot.

Well we will just have to agree to disagree then [:)]. As I do not think 2 week turns are the sweet spot. I also do not think 1 week turns make the game 'unplayable'. Especially since War in the East 2 is selling very well and it has one week turns. Different game types I know, but WitE 2 is certainly not what I would consider unplayable considering the number of people playing it.

But like I said previously, just changing the turn length to a 7 day period is NOT going to play very well since so many other things would also need to change to reflect the change in turn length.

Also, like the I said before, this is your game, so if you see no reason to have 1 week turns as an option for the player base, then that is what it will be.

I do hope that it sells well as your efforts as a developer deserve to be rewarded. I just will not be one of the people buying the game.

What can I say, but that War in the Pacific has upped my expectations for PTO games [:(]

jwarrenw13 -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/16/2021 6:54:09 PM)

I think 2-week turns work just great for the scale of the game Alvaro is shooting for. Once again it comes to preference. I also own WITE 2 but have yet to get into it because I've been working on the beta of WPP and something else. I loved WITE and the 1-week turns. But WPP is something now that you can play in just a few days start to finish, the full war, in just a few hours a day. I don't want it to be WITE Pacific. I'm doing an AAR, first year posted today, and did the first year including the writeup in one day. I like that scale.

sfbaytf -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/29/2021 3:29:21 PM)

I have WitP and played 2 PBEM games in the past. Its been over 7 years since I played WitP AE.

I'm downloading this now. Interested to see how it plays out against the AI and another human.

AlvaroSousa -> RE: Difference wirh Wip AE (4/29/2021 4:12:39 PM)

@Joey - open the editor and you can see what is moddable.

@Phoenix100 - Despite what I say the beta testers and the reviews so far all enjoy the A.I. and find it challenging. There are also a ton of difficultly levels. But the resent barrage of positive emails on WarPlan Pacific tell me the A.I. is good. The beta testers also helped me drastically improve it. It was rewritten 4.5 times to make sure it was competitive. No doubt if you are a casual wargamer you will enjoy it. I hope that answers your question.

I am also very critical of my own work and put quality way over the amount of money I will make. WarPlan Pacific has all the change log improvements of WarPlan for the A.I. as well.

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