Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (Full Version)

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Wannabe -> Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (11/2/2020 1:41:58 AM)

Has anyone managed to win even come close to survival as NATO in either of these fantastic scenarios? Any advice? I don't think I am very good at choosing local counterattacks, but I suspect I have bigger problems.

r6kunz -> RE: Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (11/3/2020 2:06:37 AM)

Thank you for your interest in these NATO-WARSAW PACT scenarios.

As the Red Thunder II 1988 designer, I have (sometimes) managed marginal victories against a PO Warsaw Pact.

This scenario is an update of Erik Rutinsí excellentRed Thunder 1988, used with his kind permission.
Design changes include a modern .eqp file, updates to the Table of Organization and Equipment, revised Formation Objectives, and updated to TOAW IV. The time-frame has been changed from Half-day to Full-day turns.

Erik uses Deus ex Machina events for off-map events. Such events as the Battle for the North Atlantic, Warsaw Pact countries revolt, NATO countries withdraw from the Alliance, Soviet airborne assaults, and the like. These events can significantly alter the results of the game.

Good luck in saving the Free World!


Wannabe -> RE: Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (11/4/2020 11:44:42 PM)

I've allowed the computer to play itself in both versions just to see what happened while I was at work. Neither went well for NATO....

Ratbag55 -> RE: Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (11/5/2020 9:18:02 AM)

Where can I find the latest version of this scenario for download please?


r6kunz -> RE: Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (11/6/2020 2:33:41 AM)

Here is the latest version, that should be included in the next TOAW4 patch.

r6kunz -> RE: Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (11/6/2020 3:22:27 AM)

Here is the end of the PO vs. PO game, Red Thunder II 1988 = Marginal NATO victory 168/727
PO vs. PO of Red Thunder 1988 has the Warsaw Pact all the way to the western map edge.

Note that the variable Deux Ex Machina events can make significant differences in the final result.

Also, in the original Red Thunder I, both NATO and Warsaw Pact divisions were given their full TOE compliment of vehicles (including non-frontline AFV) and then assigned one infantry squad for each APC. For example, in the scenario, a Soviet Motorized Rifle Regiment was assigned 130 BMP 2 vehicles and 130 Assault Squads. By actual TOE, the regiment had 81 Assault Squads in 81 BMP Infantry Combat Vehicles.
This would inflate the number of infantry squads and infantry fighting vehicles.
This method gives 24,890 Assault Squads for Warsaw Pact and 21,202 for NATO divisions.

Red Thunder II uses the TOE number of infantry squads per division and adds one Infantry Fighting Vehicle (BMP, M2 Bradley, etc.) per squad.
This gives 13,192 Assault Squads for Warsaw Pact and 14,694 for NATO divisions.

Your ideas, experiences and comments would be appreciated.


Wannabe -> RE: Red Thunder and Red Thunder II as NATO winnable? (11/22/2020 8:38:53 PM)

Thanks, Rob!

Would you be insulted if I played around with your amazing scenario? A few things I want to play with:

I want to try a NATO first airstrike turn, in which NATO strikes WARPAC airfields and bridges preemptively. My fear there is adding an additional turn at the beginning I will mess up the EVENTS list.

I also want to try playing with Force Night Combat Proficiency and Force Precision Weapons Levels. I can't seem to find out how to even access those parameters in the Editor, so you might have already done that.

I also might change some of the colors since it is often hard for me to see where the formation indicators are. I have noticed my older wargamer eyes have a much harder time seeing the 'board' than my young ones did!

I am also thinking about changing cooperation with the French, but messing with that scares me- I don't trust myself to get it right.

Finally, I might want to use your amazing scenario to learn better how Formation Paths work. I played around with COW but have done almost no scenario design since then, so to learn it is easier to play with someone else's work.

Finally, in your post above regarding infantry squads and tactical transports, are you saying Red Thunder (with AM/PM turns) is incorrect in its mech infantry TOEs? All of them, or just WARPAC? (If so, do you have the correct numbers? I have a depressing amount of free time these days....) (Actually, on immediate reread, the correct numbers would be found in the other OOB. Answered my own danged question!)

Thanks for taking time to discuss.

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