Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (Full Version)

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RADM.Yamaguchi -> Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 9:11:18 PM)

Shouldn't Japan be able to take the main bases on Luzon in early '42 with 5 divisions, 1 brigade and 10 or 12 heavy artillery units? (16Div, 48Div, 21Div, 38Div, 33Div, 65Bde) Asking for a friend.




Leandros -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 9:25:07 PM)


I should think so but Homma was pressed to go for Manila first so the Americans got the opportunity to establish themselves on Bataan. Are you asking historically or game-wise?

Fred




XTRG -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 9:28:29 PM)

I'm using 4 divisions and a Brigade with Arty and Engineer Support, 3 from Malaya we're brought in, another from Japan. It's grinding, but you WILL win. I'm on 4th of Feburary 42. Manilla is on 0 fortifications, just awaiting the men to recover before another attack, Clarke fell some days earlier, all that is left is Bataan and the Luzon is Cleared.




GetAssista -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 9:28:59 PM)

Not counting Bataan, sure. Bataan is not a main base, no threatening airfield or such, so Japan can bide its time sieging.
That is unless you tarry for far too long and let Allies build high forts in Clark Field's x3 terrain. Then couple bad rolls can mess Japan up.




RangerJoe -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 9:29:45 PM)

Take Clark first. When you know that you are going to take it, then paradrop some sacrificial paratroopers there so the units retreat to Bataan or surrender. [:D]




RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 10:03:32 PM)

Thanks. It just seems more difficult that it should. i finally have forts to zero. Lots of engineers there. Would putting the Southern Army HQ next door help push it over the edge?




XTRG -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 10:16:59 PM)

I brought a Naval Command HQ to act as the Command HQ for battles and had 2 Army HQ's - give troops plenty of support, keep constantly bombing the airfield so they can't build fortfications




geofflambert -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 10:19:02 PM)

But what am I to do about my rattan furniture? I thought this was the DIY channel. I was about to wrap them with manila folders and eat some Clark bars.




RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 10:19:22 PM)

XTRG does that work? I didn't know a naval HQ could do that.




Admiral DadMan -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/23/2020 11:11:35 PM)

Empty China. Throw everything you have into it.




Alamander -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/24/2020 9:45:17 AM)

There are many different ways to deal with Luzon. If you are pursuing a Luzon-first strategy, you want to try to finish it quickly. You don't want 4-5 divisions tied up for months while the amphibious bonus runs out. The key is armor. Bring as much armor as you can and land it as quickly as you can. The primary threats on Luzon are the Marine units and the 2 U.S. National Guard units of Stuarts. You will need tanks to deal with the Stuarts and Marines. The Phillipine army units are just raw AV without the capability to deal significant damage to your units (unless behind heavy forts).

You want 2 army HQs, maybe 3. 1 prepped for Clark and 1 for Manila. If you have a 3rd (highly optional) prep it for Bataan. This should be done on turn 1. You want one of your non-restricted command HQs present: 5th Fleet (which is the only Naval HQ that will help you in a land battle) or Southern HQ. Southern typically goes to Singapore, so you will probably use 5th fleet, which starts in Ominata. Get it to Luzon ASAP: faster than ASAP actually. Prep the command HQ depending on how the defense is set up based on raw AV. Wherever the most raw AV is likely to be: either Manila or Clark, set your command HQ for that objective.

Whether you go for Manila or Clark first should depend on allied force disposition. Dealing with the Stuarts and Marines first is best, while your units are fresh. If the Stuarts are stacked with Marines at Clark while much of the PA holds Manila (a common allied disposition), do Clark first, while your command HQ builds prep to boost your final AV total at Manila. Vice versa for a different allied disposition. If the allies stack up everything at Clark, then take Manila first, and let you command HQ build prep for Clark.

Keep Clark and Manila suppressed. Do not permit the allies to build forts. Those 5 divisions along with 4 or 5 armored regiments and some artillery should do the job by mid to late January with proper HQ and air support. Any units that you can cut off from reaching Clark or Manila is a plus, and if you can catch some allied units in clear terrain, so much the better to expedite the process. Don't linger at Bataan and expect to bombard it into submission, unless you brought a mountain of artilley. The allied artillery there will savage you if in supply. Move into Bataan with your whole force and attack quickly.

Finally, don't approach your opening as a "set plan" that you will follow rigidly regardless of enemy actions. Change your strategy in response to your enemy's actions in order to best use your early-war advantage. If the allies do stack everything at Clark, a good way to make them pay for this, is take Manila, leave 1 well-reinforced division there, and move your other units out to other objectives, using 5th Fleet at Batangas to expedite loading. Come back a couple months later, after the amphibious bonus expires, and the units at Clark will all be starving without the supply from Manila. You can then take Clark without much fuss with a couple armor regiments and 2-3 divisions: almost as an afterthought.






Q-Ball -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/24/2020 2:35:13 PM)

In my last game I decided to simply bypass Luzon and let it rot; I landed enough troops to herd everyone into Clark/Manila, and I occupied both hexes so that Manila would stop supply production. But once dug-in, a Division, plus 65 Bde and some other units are enough to keep the Americans pinned. I felt it was more important to use troops elsewhere, and come back to Luzon in late '42. Just got to keep bombing Clark/Manila to keep forts down, but I used it as kind of a training area anyway.

Why not wait?

--Units will start to starve in mid-'42, doing some of the work for you
--After the Amphib bonus expires, you may have spare divisions to send to Luzon
--There is nothing in particular you need on Luzon to support the Imperial War Effort

Am I missing something?




GetAssista -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/24/2020 2:53:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

In my last game I decided to simply bypass Luzon and let it rot; I landed enough troops to herd everyone into Clark/Manila, and I occupied both hexes so that Manila would stop supply production. But once dug-in, a Division, plus 65 Bde and some other units are enough to keep the Americans pinned. I felt it was more important to use troops elsewhere, and come back to Luzon in late '42. Just got to keep bombing Clark/Manila to keep forts down, but I used it as kind of a training area anyway.

Why not wait?

--Units will start to starve in mid-'42, doing some of the work for you
--After the Amphib bonus expires, you may have spare divisions to send to Luzon
--There is nothing in particular you need on Luzon to support the Imperial War Effort

Am I missing something?

This is the solution that I love against AI and would also try employ if I played PBEM. There is some hassle with keeping bases damaged though with the amount of allied engineers. Better solution would be to try and take either Clark or Manila, and then siege one airfield instead of two. Definitely siege the remaining Bataan pocket whatever the situation, there is no point getting bloody nose assaults there.




Alamander -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/24/2020 5:10:44 PM)

In my current game, I mostly ignored Luzon and did not land any troops there until early August 1942. It is certainly a viable plan to bypass Luzon and can be very helpful to gain maximum benefit from the amphibious bonus.

There are good reasons to do Luzon first, however. Clark Field remains dangerous and torpedo-equipped Catalinas flying from there can threaten your tanker routes. This forces you to skirt the coast of Thailand with all shipping moving between Hong Kong or the Home Islands and Singapore. Taking the long way burns fuel. B-17 Ds can remain at Clark and threaten ports as varied as Samah, Camh Ran Bay, and Takao. Also, bypassing Luzon means constant vigilance at Cheech Jima and Saipan to guard against re-supply efforts.

There are significant allied assets on Luzon, beyond the Phillipine army: about 100 P-40Es and 25 B-17Ds, for example. If you ignore Luzon, these can be bought out by the allied player and then you will have to deal with them later when they have better pilots.

It seems to me that if you are going to do the Pearl Harbor raid, taking Luzon early makes sense. By the time Luzon has fallen, your CVs have supported the CentPac invasions and are in position to support your move into the DEI. I did not do Pearl Harbor and had KB in position to support the DEI move immediately, so I bypassed Luzon to take the DEI while KB was on-hand.




Q-Ball -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/24/2020 5:16:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alamander

In my current game, I mostly ignored Luzon and did not land any troops there until early August 1942. It is certainly a viable plan to bypass Luzon and can be very helpful to gain maximum benefit from the amphibious bonus.

There are good reasons to do Luzon first, however. Clark Field remains dangerous and torpedo-equipped Catalinas flying from there can threaten your tanker routes. This forces you to skirt the coast of Thailand with all shipping moving between Hong Kong or the Home Islands and Singapore. Taking the long way burns fuel. B-17 Ds can remain at Clark and threaten ports as varied as Samah, Camh Ran Bay, and Takao. Also, bypassing Luzon means constant vigilance at Cheech Jima and Saipan to guard against re-supply efforts.

There are significant allied assets on Luzon, beyond the Phillipine army: about 100 P-40Es and 25 B-17Ds, for example. If you ignore Luzon, these can be bought out by the allied player and then you will have to deal with them later when they have better pilots.

It seems to me that if you are going to do the Pearl Harbor raid, taking Luzon early makes sense. By the time Luzon has fallen, your CVs have supported the CentPac invasions and are in position to support your move into the DEI. I did not do Pearl Harbor and had KB in position to support the DEI move immediately, so I bypassed Luzon to take the DEI while KB was on-hand.


Good points, but...
1. You have to neutralize the USAAFFE Air Forces regardless of plan. In my bypass plan, you land on Luzon to set-up airfields and start bombing, but other than that you just need to pin everyone in Manila/Clark. You will need to bomb continuously for several months, but eventually after you deal with the P-40Es you can use 2nd rate aircraft and new pilots for training.

2. You can't leave Luzon completely alone, IMO; you have to get into the Manila hex so the Allies stop producing supply there; otherwise that's 100 points a turn and will delay starvation.

I land 2-3 divisions, but then just get set-up in Manila/Clark hexes; by then, early January, you can withdraw the extra divisions for Singapore or elsewhere.

I just don't know why it needs to be taken quickly. Once isolated and bombed, the only practical use to Allies is as a forward refueling stop for subs




Alamander -> RE: Clark Field, Battan, Manila early '42 (8/24/2020 6:07:22 PM)

I didn't bomb Clark Field or Manila once after the 1st turn of the game and setup cap traps with Zeros for the B-17s and maybe Cats with torpedos instead. The B-17s flew into one, and that was the end of that. He moved the Cats and what was left of the B-17s out after that.

Granted the whole ignore Luzon completely plan means that I have not been able to take Clark as an "afterthought." It has required a full-scale operation with 4 division, including a tank division, running through August and September, now into October, but Manila fell a month ago, and my large stack of heavy artillery has done its job at Clark. There is only 1 combat effective Phillipine army unit left at Clark.

There are few problems in the game that cannot be solved with time and a big stack of 15cm and bigger guns... lol.

I did Luzon first in an earlier game, and it worked out fine as well. My point is that if you do Luzon first, you really should take it quickly lest you have too much tied up there for too long during the amphibious bonus. This is why armor, a full complement of HQs, and so forth is my recommendation.

Moving in and just taking Manila is fine also, but since Luzon is on the way to other things, why not drop off 4-5 divisions with HQs and armor so as to be in position to take advantage of any mistakes your opponent makes in defense. It will only take a week to load 2-3 division and move on from Batangas if you have the 5th fleet with its naval support there and load in TFs fitted to a size-3-port.




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