Yugo out of the game? (Full Version)

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battlevonwar -> Yugo out of the game? (8/4/2020 1:48:50 AM)

Already done, should it be done? Will it cause players to focus on Spain only and west only strats? Should there be a compromise instead? Like if The Axis want Yugo/Greece it costs something else like Spain will mobilize on it's frontier? Or no DOW on Spain? Leaving a MidEast-Eastern Strat viable?




ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/4/2020 10:41:30 PM)

I think the same, eliminating the Yugoslavia option limits Axis's tactics a lot, and almost forces Sea lion as the only option for victory.
I preferred old format where Allies had to decide how much to risk to avoid it, I think it simplifies the game.




boldairade -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/4/2020 11:36:35 PM)

i think at the very least, the game notes should be changed.

i didn't realize this change. i leveraged everything into conqureing Greece and launching a late 40 barbarossa on the same turn, assuming i'd get the yugo forces.

and then i didn't...




ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/4/2020 11:53:10 PM)

Don't worry, this change is planned for a future update.




sillyflower -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 8:57:04 AM)

the rationale for the change in the next patch is here.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4859604

In a nutshell - currently axis cannot be stopped from taking Greece in 1 turn, at no or only minimal cost, and getting 1500 PPs' worth of yugo forces + the yugo economy. Warplan is not a game where you get something for nothing, and nor should it be.




battlevonwar -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 10:54:13 AM)

i.e. Portugal, Persia, Iraq, Luxembourgh, Syria, french raiding Norway Ore, emptying Colonies, WDF Armor in France, etc... ? like those and 10 other freebies
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

the rationale for the change in the next patch is here.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4859604

In a nutshell - currently axis cannot be stopped from taking Greece in 1 turn, at no or only minimal cost, and getting 1500 PPs' worth of yugo forces + the yugo economy. Warplan is not a game where you get something for nothing, and nor should it be.





kennonlightfoot -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 2:26:16 PM)

I can't find anything indicating that after Germany took Yugoslavia that Yugoslavia made in significant contribution to the Axis war effort. Looks like it was almost completely negative because of the extensive partisan activities.

The only apparent reason for Hitler choosing to invade Yugoslavia was pride. They were part of the Axis so they could just leave. There was some fear that the Allies would use it as a base to open a new front but that would only happen if the Yugoslavs actually changed sides or the Allies invaded them.

It looks like during WW II historically invading Greece and Yugoslavia were dumb moves.
With this change it looks like invading them will also be a dumb move.

So the rule change is probably the correct thing to do. Should be up to the players whether to repeat Historical dumb moves.
They can decide whether the two VP hexes are worth the resources to take them.

But it does take away from the Axis player a major bonus. When Yugoslavia could become Axis they brought with them a substantial army which usually ended up on garrison duty all over Europe, freeing up quite a few German units.




battlevonwar -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 7:28:55 PM)

This is selective history.

History and gaming aren't the same thing. The Germans are spread quite thin by a wise Allied Player as it is. Your changes though historically accurate are selective. If Portugal was invaded do you really think Franco's troop disposition would be as such if he saw 1 million Allied Troops across his border? He probably would of joined the Allies or Axis, whoever was doing better at a certain point and whoever showed the most promise. Though he definitely wouldn't of sat as troop dispositions are!

Players have learned to stretch each nations resources to the utmost and changing game balance will only change in game tactics and give you a flavor of realism. You should give something in return if this is your choice. Like if Italy takes Yugoslavia and Greece they get a Morale boost, which isn't completely unbelievable. 5-10 Moral Increase and a morale increase for Alexandria... Not likely the situation but more balancing! And slightly possible!

Prepare for Sea Lion-UK-Spain First only preferred strats by this change.




kennonlightfoot -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 8:13:24 PM)

But you don't want to add something as ahistorical as the Yugoslavs giving the Axis 8-10 Corps.
If the game needs balancing it should be handled by other means. Maybe letting Germany raise old men and boys divisions similar to the Russian Rifle Divisions for fortifying the coasts.

It would be nice in the case of the neutrals if declaring war on one triggered the other player being able to set up their defenses.
However, this could be handled in the game if declaring war triggered an event based on Side declaring war that would reposition all the Neutrals forces to face the most likely attack direction. Most of the Neutrals don't have enough troops though to make this have any effect. But in the case of Spain they probably could at least give an Allied invasion a headache.

Another interesting approach would be a delay between declaring war and being able to invade. Say if Germany and Italy declare war on Greece they wouldn't be able to instantly invade the same turn. Greece would come under Allied control during the Allied phase and their troops could be repositioned and if available British sent to the rescue. That would definitely give pause to Allies declaring war on Spain before they had massive forces to follow threw with.




sveint -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 8:23:12 PM)

I have yet to lose as the Allies, so I hardly think the Allies need to be strengthened. But that's just my point of view.




ncc1701e -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 8:38:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

I have yet to lose as the Allies, so I hardly think the Allies need to be strengthened. But that's just my point of view.


I lost Russia several times but now I don't think about a new loss anymore - I was wrong a lot of times




battlevonwar -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 8:45:32 PM)

kennonlightfoot,

I think the programming would be quite extensive perhaps you're looking at Warplan 2 to do some of those things. Some of the limitations wouldn't be bad but as Sveint remarked and you should heed...

Sveint, Allies got several buffs since release. They are definitely very difficult to beat in able hands. I have played them and haven't yet lost with them.

ncc1701e, Russia is very hard to lose if you bleed the Axis leading up to the Barbarossa campaign. Very few are bold enough to try one. I did vs Sveint and 2 other players and though I did very well you sort of have to mess up things to lose it. The Rivers, Marshes, Cities, numerous Russian units(not to mention an Airforce comparable to the Luftwaffe by December '41) makes her far more able to defend herself than people think. It's when the Axis have not been bled when things get hairy. Learn to make France bloody and sap German Production and the Axis will likely not even want to try Barbarossa. (hotseat the perfect French Defense!)

P.S. I don't even think '41 Barbarossa against a competent opponent is a viable strat anymore. It use to be but not anymore if you want any chance to win.




ncc1701e -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 8:50:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

ncc1701e, Russia is very hard to lose if you bleed the Axis leading up to the Barbarossa campaign. Very few are bold enough to try one. I did vs Sveint and 2 other players and though I did very well you sort of have to mess up things to lose it. The Rivers, Marshes, Cities, numerous Russian units(not to mention an Airforce comparable to the Luftwaffe by December '41) makes her far more able to defend herself than people think. It's when the Axis have not been bled when things get hairy. Learn to make France bloody and sap German Production and the Axis will likely not even want to try Barbarossa. (hotseat the perfect French Defense!)


Well I have learned the hard way on both sides. I have lost 3 panzer corps in France and was unable to do a good '41 Barbarossa. Mostly due to retreat path I think.

With the new beta patch, France will be hopefully easier to take down...




ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 11:24:12 PM)

I understand your numbers but I think eliminating the event balances the game too much in Allies' favor.
Personally I have only used paratroops as support, using the doctrine only paratroops would condition the manufacturing queue, that is already a small punishment.
It would be a shame to eliminate the invasion of Greece by minimizing it, because it is one of the most fun, if it is not achieved on the first turn it can be very complicated, I like the idea of deciding how much I want to bet to avoid it when I play as Ally.
The solution could be the CVs, I think the idea was that they would work as short-range fighters but in practice they do not, they do not intercept paradrops or tactical bombers when they attack friendly troops within their range, I do not know if technically it is possible that they comply this function but it would certainly multiply the tactical options.
Even so in 40 if the axis goes with all its force, it can always knock down Greece in one turn, but at the cost of delaying other operations and a waste of troops efficiency and waste of train and transport ships.
And this is a cost to take into account, not just the economic one.
Finally a madness, there would always be the option for the UK to invade Greece before Axis and fortify it, although I imagine it would leave the Middle East unprotected, hard decisions, which is the fun thing!




ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/5/2020 11:30:16 PM)

In summary, although the current system seemed good to me (now I have doubts) I think that Allies should have some more defense option, but I don't think eliminating it is the best solution.




Harrybanana -> RE: Yugo out of the game? (8/6/2020 5:44:28 AM)

I am in favour of changing the Greece/Yugo Rule. I have given my reasons elsewhere. But I agree that the removal of this Rule will heavily hinder the Axis. The proposed new French colony garrisoning Rule will counter balance this somewhat, but probably not enough. So it will probably be necessary to make other changes to restore game balance. Others have already suggested some. Two other possible changes are:

1. Changing the Game End date to the end of May 45. Won't help the Axis conquer the world, but will give it a much better chance of pulling off a VP Victory.

2. Reducing the number of starting UK Merchant ships. This will make the uboat war more meaningful even if the Axis don't build a ton of uboats.




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