I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (Full Version)

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MrsWargamer -> I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 1:06:06 PM)

Why the fascination with LOSERS.

That's what the Confederates and the Nazis are. L.O.S.E.R.S

They are not cool. They Lost. BIG.

Why do we consider in 'ordinary' to laugh at the French Military and poke fun, but not the German Military, who lost both WW1 and WW2?

I don't understand the attraction of German paraphernalia and their tanks weren't perfect eh. Why the obsession with big cats? The Tiger was at best a rolling pillbox. Over-engineered, too costly, too slow. The Germans COULD have made a great deal more Panzer IV chassis. They were a good tank. The Panther entered the battle as a buggy prone to burst into flames rushed idea too. The Jagd panther was not a better idea than a lot Jagd panzer IVs.

Hitler had a great option in the ME 262 in 43, but nope, he stupidly used it as a fast bomber.
Stalingrad was a very dumb way to throw away a veteran army.
Not doing Africa right, cost the Axis the war.

Hitler likely cost the Germans the war. It's fortunate that unskilled ego thought he was a genius.
He was a great orator, nothing much past that though.
Or put a better way, he was all talk.

When I look at the US Civil War, I see the same thing. They were great out of the starting gate, and then they blow it.

They are LOSERS.

And yet they are popular with some. I don't see why.
It is because the fans of the south, and inherently losers?
I can't be blamed for making that conclusion.

I don't desire this to be political. I'm trying to see it through history, and understand, what drives a person to pick the German tank model, why a person wants to put a Confederate flag on their vehicle. Why they choose SS whatever in their forum identity. Who wants to be associated with the losers?

We need the historical opposition to design a game experience. Impossible to play WW2 games, and no enemy side. Interesting to see if we could outperform the performance of that side in a simulation. Personally, I think portraying Hitler's bone headed decisions is quite the challenge.

Some of the Generals on these sides of the conflict were quite good at their job.
But politicians often put their soldiers in impossible situations.

Still, the losing side is what it is.
And we all know Patton's thoughts on what he thought of losers.
He was of the opinion Americans worship winners.
So why the obsession with losers?

I don't like revisionist history actions.
Not sure how some personalities from the losing side managed to get their names where they did.
And here in Canada, we have our share of examples that in the light of day, don't seem wise.

When I wargame, I want to be a Rommel, or a Patton. I think MacArthur was an arrogant swine. I think Halsey was easy to bait. I think Monty was too slow. My favourite unit was the Devil's brigade. My favourite piece of hardware was the F4U Corsair, or the 17pdr. But in gamey terms, I really like the British Bishop. It's such an obnoxious unit in Battle Academy.

I'm proud of Canada's military past. We moved furthest inland on D-Day. We went up against the Hitler Youth in Normandy, and we kicked their asses. We fought the German paras in Ortona, and they got smashed there too. When you fight a Caadian, you bring your A game, or we kick you butt.

I have zero desire to champion losers.

So why does anyone like the Confederates/Nazis?




Lobster -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 1:37:05 PM)

Neither WW2 Germany nor the U.S. Civil War South had the industry and manpower to accomplish what needed to be done. Very simple, not rocket science. So if you start trouble by yourself and a knife against five guys with guns you can be a LOSER too. [:D]




MrsWargamer -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 1:46:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Neither WW2 Germany nor the U.S. Civil War South had the industry and manpower to accomplish what needed to be done. Very simple, not rocket science. So if you start trouble by yourself and a knife against five guys with guns you can be a LOSER too. [:D]


Good analogy




TheGrayMouser -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 2:01:54 PM)

My question for you is would you lump say the American plains Indians or the ancient Gauls into your category of “losers”.




UP844 -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 2:14:41 PM)

I think playing the historical losers is more challenging than playing the victorious side: as a consequence, even obtaining a marginally better result gives the player much more satisfaction than replaying history and winning for the same reasons the historical winner did.





Blond_Knight -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 3:18:02 PM)

"why a person wants to put a Confederate flag on their vehicle."

Because our ancestors fought and died for that flag.
Make no mistake to have a United States we had to lose. To have a strong Nation we had to lose. Nobody honoring their ancestry is pro-slavery.
But we didnt want the Federal Govt telling us what to do.





Grognerd_INC -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 3:50:09 PM)

I like Tiger tanks, when my dad was alive he liked to say to me "go get em tiger" - So I like and choose a tiger tank to represent me in these forums. Has little to do with fascists' or Adolf.




Halsey -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 3:54:24 PM)

It's an underdog thing.

To be out of supply, out gunned, out manned, out maneuvered, out of position, desperate and surrounded.
Yet in spite of all these being against you, there is a chance of survival and possible victory.
Those in that situation usually perform at their best and highest determination in courage and bravery.

These are the actions that you'd want to participate in.
These are the actions that will be remembered.
These actions will give you a place in history.
Whether you win or lose, you will be remembered.[:D]

The list is endless, of nations, peoples, armies, navies that were seemingly overwhelmed, yet prevailed.
It's actually a story of mankind and it's will to overcome and survive.
A story of all of us on this small planet.[;)]





Curtis Lemay -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 3:54:46 PM)

One historical side is always a loser in any wargame. (Discounting the odd draw, of course).




RangerJoe -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 4:11:49 PM)

MacArthur may have been arrogant but he was very good.

Halsey may have been easy to bait but he was following orders. The aftermath of the Turkey Shoot led in part to his distraction. He had also sent a lot of carriers for replenishment and rest. He and his staff had recently been ill as well.




terminator -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 4:36:44 PM)

It seems to me that the Germans were not always L.O.S.E.R.S ?

Nazis = members of Hitler’s National Socialist Party.




Kuokkanen -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 4:38:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

So why does anyone like the Confederates/Nazis?

I remember hearing from radio something about Union general having all the advantages for an attack and decisive victory, but he didn't have the balls to do so, and thus Confederation got time to fortify and reinforce. Nazis had cool tanks. As you say, Panzer IV was hella good, and Germany had it from start of the war. I also remember Nicholas Moran the Chieftain saying that Tiger was a good tank for what it was designed for. That is, to support attacks against fortifications, like Sherman Jumbo. How reliable Jumbo was again?

[edit]
To further add, I'm from Finland, Germany was our ally in the war, so there is that. We lost too, but not before giving Red Army a bloody nose [:D]




rico21 -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 4:39:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Why the fascination with LOSERS.

That's what the Confederates and the Nazis are. L.O.S.E.R.S

They are not cool. They Lost. BIG.

Why do we consider in 'ordinary' to laugh at the French Military and poke fun, but not the German Military, who lost both WW1 and WW2?


Loser lives matter, Mrs Wargamer.




MrRoadrunner -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 4:45:20 PM)

George Washington was a loser?
Spartans were losers?
Romans were losers?
Poles are losers?
American Indians were losers?
Jews were losers?
Arabs were losers?
French were losers(more than once)?
Brits were losers?

Where does it end?
The lens of history is always viewed and written by winners?

My wife is of Irish and German decent. I tell her she always starts fights she can never win. [8|] I'd never call her a loser. [X(]

Nor would I compare the American South to Nazis. But, hey, go with it if you want. You have the glasses on that you want to wear?

RR




Lobster -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 5:01:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

So why does anyone like the Confederates/Nazis?

That is, to support attacks against fortifications, like Sherman Jumbo. How reliable Jumbo was again?


The Sherman tank was very reliable. Didn't even have to carry a spare transmission on the back of it. [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen
[edit]
To further add, I'm from Finland, Germany was our ally in the war, so there is that. We lost too, but not before giving Red Army a bloody nose [:D]


Finland made it abundantly clear they were a co-belligerent, not an ally.

Not every German was a Nazi and not every Nazi was a German.




RangerJoe -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 5:08:20 PM)

In every athletic contest with an elimination type tournement/post season, every team but one that makes it to the tournement/post season loses their last game. That does not mean that they should not even try.

As far as I can recall, Germany never won a war.




Lobster -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 5:17:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In every athletic contest with an elimination type tournement/post season, every team but one that makes it to the tournement/post season loses their last game. That does not mean that they should not even try.

As far as I can recall, Germany never won a war.


Germany as a nation called Germany? Or Germans in general. Franco-Prussian war comes to mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Germany

Going back to Prussia (East Germany et al) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_and_battles_involving_Prussia




Simulacra53 -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 5:17:29 PM)

Heads you win, tails I lose.

Flame bait first class.
I don’t like barbie dolls, can’t understand why anyone beyond the age of 12 would like to play with them.

[:D]




Mobeer -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 5:22:38 PM)

A big part of the appeal is knowing that each unit is precious.

Knowing how each precious each elite unit you commanded was made Panzer General a better game than Allied General. Likewise I preferred playing Japanese in War in the Pacific to playing Allies, because losses are so much harder to take. If you lose a US destroyer you know many more are coming, but losing a Japanese destroyer is a big thing.




MrsWargamer -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 5:41:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

Heads you win, tails I lose.

Flame bait first class.
I don’t like barbie dolls, can’t understand why anyone beyond the age of 12 would like to play with them.

[:D]


It is not my desire to bicker, so I will let everyone have their say and leave them be.

But I can't understand why anyone past age 12 would stop playing with Barbies :)
I mean, that's like asking men why they make models. Aren't those meant for kids? :)




RangerJoe -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 5:41:46 PM)

The Franco-Prussian war was France against Prussia and Prussia's allies. Prussia became part of Germany but it is not all of Germany.




Lobster -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 6:50:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Franco-Prussian war was France against Prussia and Prussia's allies. Prussia became part of Germany but it is not all of Germany.


Mere semantics. Prussia became Germany.

Wiki:
Following the fall of Napoleon, the Congress of Vienna founded the German Confederation, a loose league of 39 sovereign states. The appointment of the Emperor of Austria as the permanent president reflected the Congress's rejection of Prussia's rising influence. Disagreement within restoration politics partly led to the rise of liberal movements, followed by new measures of repression by Austrian statesman Metternich.[42][43] The Zollverein, a tariff union, furthered economic unity.[44] In light of revolutionary movements in Europe, intellectuals and commoners started the Revolutions of 1848 in the German states. King Frederick William IV of Prussia was offered the title of Emperor, but with a loss of power; he rejected the crown and the proposed constitution, a temporary setback for the movement.

King William I appointed Otto von Bismarck as the Minister President of Prussia in 1862. Bismarck successfully concluded war on Denmark; the subsequent decisive Prussian victory in the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 enabled him to create the North German Confederation which excluded Austria. After the French defeat in the Franco-Prussian War, the German princes proclaimed the founding of the German Empire in 1871. Prussia was the dominant constituent state of the new empire; the King of Prussia ruled as its Kaiser, and Berlin became its capital.

The Franco-Prussian War or Franco-German War,[a] often referred to in France as the War of 1870, was a conflict between the Second French Empire (and later, the Third French Republic) and the German states of the North German Confederation led by the Kingdom of Prussia

Kingdom of Prussia 1870
[image]local://upfiles/45799/7DAECA9C4FE14A69B78FEACF58FA59FA.jpg[/image]




RangerJoe -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 7:18:52 PM)

Prussia did not become Germany. It became part of Germany.

Using your logic, the South won the US Civil War since the South is part of the USA which won the war.

So soldiers of the Confederacy are considered US veterans.




Lobster -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 7:59:48 PM)

omg [sm=crazy.gif]




Kuokkanen -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 8:14:57 PM)

Oh lulz you 2 [sm=00000289.gif]

Calm down, step away from the keyboard, and watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc




warspite1 -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 8:43:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

So why does anyone like the Confederates/Nazis?
warspite1

I agree with Halsey about the underdog thing. Personally I have no real interest in the US Civil War but if I played a game I would have no problem playing the Confederates and, like with the Nazis, I wouldn’t give the politics much, if any, thought. I do however wargame WWII and again I have absolutely no problem playing the Germans.
Depending on the game there are many reasons for wanting to play the Germans. They lost (underdog), they have some great units – especially 1939-41 – and yes, if you see past the politics, they have some very ‘cool’ units with some fantastic names. The German language is wonderful.

quote:

So why does anyone like the Nazis?


Well it’s not about ‘liking’ the Nazis. For me it’s about being interested in a) history and b) wargames. If anyone were to suggest I was a fan of the Nazis because I sometimes play the Germans in WWII games, then I would suggest the problem lies with them and not me.
Frankly though, I prefer to play the Allies, but then maybe that is because I’m British.

BTW of course Hitler cost Germany the war – without Hitler there is every chance there wouldn’t have been one! But Hitler and his revolting Nazis are not at the forefront of thinking when setting out on any new game.





RangerJoe -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 9:21:32 PM)

Hitler cost Germany the war. But early on, his gambles worked.

The questions are:

If the Winter War did not occur, would the deficiencies of the Soviet military been known?

If not, would Stalin made the necessary changes in time if the Germans would have attacked anyway?

If Germany did not attack the Soviet Union, would the Soviets have attacked Germany later in the summer? It did appear that the Soviets were in forward positions and not in defensive positions, also there is some speculation that the Soviets were getting ready to attack.

Also:

If the Luftwaffe would have released excess personel to the Armee instead of making Luftwaffe field divisions, would that have materially helped the Armee?

If Nazi Germany would have concentrated on making just a few necessary types of motor transport and combat vehicles, would that have significantly helped the Armee?




MrsWargamer -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 9:31:02 PM)

Last two posts, very well stated.




AndySfromVA -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 9:42:33 PM)

I like playing the offense and Germany and the confederates were the aggressors in many of the famous battles and campaigns.




Gilmer -> RE: I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation) (6/14/2020 9:52:17 PM)

But you said you wanted to play Rommel or Patton. One of those guys was on the losing side. :) So, you see? You can like the losing side in an objective way.

I think the South is obsessed with the Civil War because they could have won. Oh yeah, I know, the industrial might of the North. Bigger underdogs have won. And the South did have some pretty decent generals in the beginning.

I always play the Allied or the North or the Soviet Union on the Eastern Front. So, I'm not obsessed. But, then again, I had no family fight in the Civil War, so I can pick which side I want.

As for the Tiger tank. I'm not sure why or how, but I had always heard Germany had the best tanks. It was only when I got older that I learned that the Soviet tanks held their own against them. And this might be that mostly in the U.S. movies and such are about the Western part of the war.




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