The logistic System is a gigantic mess (Full Version)

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Dampfnudel -> The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 9:30:21 AM)

The logistic system is a gigantic mess.
The "concept" of sending logistic points spreading equally in every direction is terrific.

In The game, the player is supposed to manually direct the logistical points via traffic signs.
This means that every turn I need to check my gigantic empire for changes in logistical needs and then adjust all the traffic signs accordingly.

Every turn troops move and assets are constructed, changing the required logistic points dramatically.
Every mine opens up a new road, causing another traffic sign. Aver asset upgrade requires a traffic sign change.

So I either have to massively over construct logistical capacity or I have to fiddle down with hundreds of traffic signs and their percentages to get the logistic where it is needed.

Logistical Points need to be spread demand-driven.
The only reason for traffic signs should be to priotize supply if not enough capacity is there.




KingHalford -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 10:30:40 AM)

You shouldn't need to micromanage things to this extent, if this is the case, BUILD MORE TRUCK STATIONS (this is gonna become my catchphrase)




Kamelpov -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 10:35:18 AM)

If you don't want to think build supply truck and max size everytime and put them at 8 hex from each other and call it a day.




devoncop -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 10:36:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

You shouldn't need to micromanage things to this extent, if this is the case, BUILD MORE TRUCK STATIONS (this is gonna become my catchphrase)



1000 times this .....truck stations are you friend !




Kamelpov -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 11:11:01 AM)

It's exactly what most companies IRL does spam truck. You are bad with logistics just buy more truck. Then congestion is another problem but not in that game road has no truck limit.




Nemo84 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 11:18:21 AM)

But that doesn't solve the actual problem.

For example a city has two roads connected. One is a small dirt road leading to a lvl 1 farm. The other is the main highway connecting this city to the empire. No matter how many truck stations I build, half of that logistical capacity will be wasted on the tiny little farm.

And the only way to counter that is fiddling with traffic signs, whileevery split in the road makes the problem more complex. It has no gameplay benefit whatsoever, it does not force me to make meaningful decisions, it's just busywork that makes me feel less like a ruler and more like one of his junior clerqks. micromanagement




KingHalford -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 11:38:23 AM)

I just played a game through from start to finish (115 turns) and only use the traffic signs a couple of times, near the start of the game. You likely won't touch them after a few turns aside from occasionally redirecting supply out to some long distant desert explorer.

If you're having to micromanage them turn by turn, you're not playing it right.




Dampfnudel -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 12:00:44 PM)

Go make a medium medusa planet run on extreme difficulty. And then tell me traffic sign micromanagement is not an issue.




KingHalford -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 12:19:41 PM)

I've not played Extreme, Regular is difficult enough for me. But now I understand your problem.

I understand the issue you're discussing and I also dislike any game design that encourages the player to micromanage every turn. However, since the very earliest 4X games and early game AI, the only way that a computer player can possibly keep up with a human is by giving it certain advantages, and the way to challenge the player in return is to give the AI more of those advantages. Consequently, the highest difficulty settings on these games usually required the player to either take advantage of exploits or to constantly micromanage their empire in order to get the best performance possible in order to win. If you watch someone like Sulla playing Master of Orion, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about, or the best Civilization players.

What I'm trying to say is this: if you're going to play on the very highest difficulty settings against an AI with massive bonuses, you're going to have to use everything you have, including Traffic Lights and everything else.

But that doesn't mean the game is badly designed, because most people are going to be playing it at a more reasonable difficulty and no game is ever balanced at those highest most extreme difficulty settings.




Saros -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 12:29:46 PM)

Some more fidelity with traffic lights might be useful.

If you could designate a road that's only being used for supplying an asset traffic signal as "LIS supply only" so it checks every turn only allows enough LP to folow through as is needed by whatever assets it supplies it would save having to readjust them continuously when you swap about your logistics network.




Nemo84 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 12:54:57 PM)

Just because you haven't needed it doesn't mean it's not an issue for others. "You're playing it wrong" is the lamest excuse for a poor design decision possible.

I'm in my first beginner-difficulty game and without constant tweaking of these traffic signs my empire simply grinds to a halt. Especially with the AI's road spaghetti.

There is absolutely no reason why a lvl 1 farm should draw 5000 trucks from the resource pool while an entire army 10 hexes over is running out of supplies.

I very much support a setting that just draws the minimal logistics points needed by the connected assets.




springel -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:15:50 PM)

The logistic system is a true gem.

When you have 'too many' roads, just shut the superfluous ones down with traffic lights.

Put like a 95% block on roads that just service a single asset.

If that is too much for you, play another game.




budd -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:18:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

Just because you haven't needed it doesn't mean it's not an issue for others. "You're playing it wrong" is the lamest excuse for a poor design decision possible.

I'm in my first beginner-difficulty game and without constant tweaking of these traffic signs my empire simply grinds to a halt. Especially with the AI's road spaghetti.

There is absolutely no reason why a lvl 1 farm should draw 5000 trucks from the resource pool while an entire army 10 hexes over is running out of supplies.

I very much support a setting that just draws the minimal logistics points needed by the connected assets.

He has a good point.

But OP calling the logistic system a giant mess is a bit dramatic.




budd -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:19:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: springel

The logistic system is a true gem.

When you have 'too many' roads, just shut the superfluous ones down with traffic lights.

Put like a 95% block on roads that just service a single asset.

If that is too much for you, play another game.

Wait...wait... You can do that, think I'm about to learn something




budd -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:22:33 PM)

Duh, I get it, disregard above




AttuWatcher -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:31:15 PM)

I think a demand based system is more elegant in the end.

Does anyone have an actual good argument against it?

However, I agree with Ben, if you want to play this game in a "min/max" style, or with expert difficulty, complaining about micro is kind of ridiculous. Doesn't matter if it's logistics or any other part of the game.

I also don't think the current system is that bad, but if it were to be rebuilt from the ground up...demand based just seems objectively better. I'm all ears for any arguments against it, or defense of the current system vs. demand based.




Kriegsspieler -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:40:24 PM)

In my opinion, there are two issues here that could be discussed and critiqued separately -- the complexity of the system and its transparency. I don't mind that it's complex, but I sure wish that it were a bit more transparent. The map overlays, for example, aren't quite informative enough to make out how I should be reading and responding to them.

Still, really, is any of this more difficult than your average Grigsby game? I think not! [:D]




willgamer -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:45:09 PM)

I like the logistics system, complicated though it certainly is...

Resources require a static LIS; troops highly variable.

So how about a check box in the traffic controller that indicates to ignore the percentages and instead give a fixed amount based upon the static load at the far end.

This creates its own problems, of course, if you bring dynamic loads (i.e. troops) into the service area. However, if used properly in rear areas, it would greatly reduce the fiddling around, especially when the static resource is upgraded.

[8D]




misterblort -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 1:46:51 PM)

I don't agree that is a complete mess. However, I do agree that a demand system makes more sense overall.
You are a supreme leader and tedious things like this should be handled by your advisors and staff..
Supply and demand just makes the most sense. If I got 10k supply and I need 10k in total all supplies should be dealt with. If I only have 9k supplies, that's were the system comes in handy to prioritize where you need them the most.
It only makes sense when u have less than you need, when you are over your needed supplies you shouldn't have to manually divert it to where it is needed. You've got a truck dispatch for that..




KingHalford -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 2:19:16 PM)

I'm all for a demand based system if it will actually fix this "problem" (which I'm not at all convinced is a problem at all) but the CPU cost of that might be way too much for this game. The AI turn times are already very large and if the game has to calculate demand from every single point on a logistics route I expect you're going to see the whole game grind to a halt.

I'm reckon the existing system will be calculated for each regime with an algorithm that looks at every point and sends it out more or less equally that way. Now consider that each point has to not only have an algorithm run to check but also some kind of decision making process too.

When you're doing this for every hex in in 60+ AI players turns as well as the human player, I think you're looking at a hell of a lot of CPU cost.




KingHalford -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 2:24:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

Just because you haven't needed it doesn't mean it's not an issue for others. "You're playing it wrong" is the lamest excuse for a poor design decision possible.

I'm in my first beginner-difficulty game and without constant tweaking of these traffic signs my empire simply grinds to a halt. Especially with the AI's road spaghetti.

There is absolutely no reason why a lvl 1 farm should draw 5000 trucks from the resource pool while an entire army 10 hexes over is running out of supplies.

I very much support a setting that just draws the minimal logistics points needed by the connected assets.


The Traffic Light System exists to fix issues like this. It's not something you need to do every turn, you do it once, it takes three seconds max, and then it's done.

If you're having to go and change it again every couple of turns, I think you probably need to build more truck stations, as I said.




springel -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 2:42:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher

I think a demand based system is more elegant in the end.

Does anyone have an actual good argument against it?


Yes, it is very hard to plan correctly. Think Soviet style failures where they planned everything from the top, without sufficient computer software.

The system is this game is much like the structure of transport here in NL until the late 20st century: transport was carried out by many small companies, each servicing their own route. This system grew out of a system of cargo boats in the 19th century and before. These systems of companies cooperated with big central cargo stations in the city, where they were all parked until they departed at a certain time. I went there every Friday with my mother to deliver packages to all the villages in the neighbouring provinces, as my parents had a printing office that made flyers for groceries of a large organisation.

Only after the 1970's this system disappeared and was replaced by larger transport companies who could use large computer systems and distribution centres to handle everything, but the old system worked fine without requiring a huge planning organisation. Each line was a single company with a smaller or larger or multiple trucks, adapted to the load of the average traffic.

The system was more flexible in a way than the big integrated system, as you could deliver your package at the station just before departure, and the package would be delivered an hour later at the destination. The big systems that replaced it don't offer that kind of speed without a large premium.




DeltaV112 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 3:36:44 PM)

I'd agree that points spreading arbitrarily isn't very good design. It's manageable by as people suggested building more truck stations but at the same time that wastes resources meaning the player is incentivized to spend lots of time fiddling with the traffic signs to maximize the throughput for their logistical network, especially around major trunk resource lines that require lots of points to function properly.

Having said that I can see how it might be necessary- an optimal solution is non-trivial, because it might be necessary to route resources in weird ways in order to get as much as possible out of all the logistical assets. I don't think it would actually take up all that much turn processing time- modern comptuters can crunch a huge volume of data, and also this family of problems(transportation problems) is well-characterized enough that efficient optimal or near-optimal solutions exist. The issue would be the complexity involved in creating a solver that was reliable and fast.

My initial tack for how a solution would work based on my knowledge is something like this: take all the logistical centers on the map. Establish their base cost as the inverse of the number of points they have(our goal is to minimize the occurrence of a logistical center being used to capacity, so we try to use the smallest fraction possible). Then, calculate the cost to reach the logistical center with one point from the SHQ and add it on to the cost of that logistical center, along with the route used. This will change all the costs, but because the number of logistical centers is small, we can iterate it several times to get a near-optimal solution. From this point, for each logistical stage you can calculate the optimal routing to minimize the total network usage, and then check to see where if/where you are hitting the ceiling and limit throughput on those routes.

Complicated, not insoluble. Worth it? Maybe. That's for Vic to decide.




Dampfnudel -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 3:47:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

Just because you haven't needed it doesn't mean it's not an issue for others. "You're playing it wrong" is the lamest excuse for a poor design decision possible.

I'm in my first beginner-difficulty game and without constant tweaking of these traffic signs my empire simply grinds to a halt. Especially with the AI's road spaghetti.

There is absolutely no reason why a lvl 1 farm should draw 5000 trucks from the resource pool while an entire army 10 hexes over is running out of supplies.

I very much support a setting that just draws the minimal logistics points needed by the connected assets.


The Traffic Light System exists to fix issues like this. It's not something you need to do every turn, you do it once, it takes three seconds max, and then it's done.

If you're having to go and change it again every couple of turns, I think you probably need to build more truck stations, as I said.



You also need to change the traffic signs every time asset upgrades as it now requires more Logistical Points.
Now imagine having an empire with hundreds of assets upgrading all the time all connecting by hundreds of roads and intersections.




KingHalford -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 3:52:28 PM)

Transportation problems are very well documented, and they're documented to be extremely cost heavy. I like this possible solution ^^ but imagine that running for 60+ factions each turn?




ramnblam -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 3:57:53 PM)

I think a cool solution to these issues would be the ability to tell your economic council to optimize your road and logistic network based on demand at a cost of BPs. So you can do some fine tuning and manual adjustments as needed but if it becomes a mess the ability to get your underlings to sort it and deliver a good but perhaps imperfect logistic network.




Nemo84 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 4:10:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford


The Traffic Light System exists to fix issues like this. It's not something you need to do every turn, you do it once, it takes three seconds max, and then it's done.

If you're having to go and change it again every couple of turns, I think you probably need to build more truck stations, as I said.


No, it means I'm constantly adding logistics capacity and conquering more of the AI's road spaghetti.

An asset needs a certain minimum of logistic points to function (100/level). If each turn the logistics capacity of the main road increases, the fraction needed in the branch to operate the asset decreases. Because I'm forced by terrain to support a large invasion force through a single supply line with branches to vital resource assets and hex bonuses, I'm constantly having to readjust the signals to make sure my strained logistics capacity is not strangled by diverting trucks to assets that don't need that many.

Likewise the region around the newly conquered AI cities at the end of that supply line is tangled with roads going nowhere. This dilutes the already tiny logisitics capability in the city so the surrounding countryside assets cannot properly supply it. This significantly lengthens the unrest in the city, increasing the build time on the city's logistics improvements and reducing supply to the units protecting the city from its former owners.

Again, just because you haven't needed it so far doesn't mean others won't. Yes, brute-forcing the system by doing nothing but spam truck stations the next 15 turns will probably solve my problem as the AI is too weak on beginner difficulty to properly counter-attack. But better control over the traffic system will solve my problem far quicker, more efficiŽntly and in a far more fun manner.

EDIT:
I don't mind having to place traffic signs to direct the flow, as an intelligent logistics assignment system might be computationally problematic. But at the very least I need to be able to define a specific logistic value that can pass a sign instead of it being a percentage of a varying total. Combine that with a bottleneck overlay that clearly identifies assets with insufficient logistics to operate fully, and it's basically a good enough solution that's relatively easy to implement.




DeltaV112 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 4:20:53 PM)

Minors/nonaligned don't play by the logistics rules so you wouldn't have to run it for them. But OFC eventually the majors will own most of the territory and will make lots of assets and units that need to have their costs computed. The upper bound is essentially twice the number of hexes on the map, so reasonably the constraint matrix won't exceed several thousand rows in size. Likely it will stay below a thousand(imagine the time it would take you to shuffle a thousand units around the map).

Modern LP solvers running on desktop hardware can handle a LP problem of this sort of size in less than a second. Crunching lots and lots of numbers is easy.




Cornuthaum -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 4:29:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

If you don't want to think build supply truck and max size everytime and put them at 8 hex from each other and call it a day.

who has the population/workers for that? that's the major problem I have with logistics, even with rail IV stations between all my cities, there just aren't enough workers (and I've sucked up all free folk in all my zones already)




Emx77 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/9/2020 4:32:19 PM)

I also prefer demand based system. For example, Ageod in some of their titles (American Civil War, Revolution Under Siege...) used what they called advanced supply. It is very elegant system where each depot, city or army acts like magnet for supply produced all over a map.




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