Upgrading the Units of a Minor (Full Version)

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ReinerAllen -> Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/17/2020 3:01:55 PM)

My friend and I are playing through a campaign when Spain joins the Axis. The Axis than expends the majority of his production points for one turn to upgrade Spain's land units and ships. Rather than upgrading minors, why can't technology and/or production points be given to allies?

Also, why is Spain considered a minor? It should be able to stand on its own (my humble opinion).

Comments are welcome.




Bo Rearguard -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/17/2020 3:38:57 PM)

I've sometimes have wondered if it would be a good idea to allow Axis powers to "lend" MPPs to each other like the Allies do with Russia maybe with a cap set on it to limit abusing the privilege. Sometimes, Italy is starving for production while Germany is bumping up against force pool limits.

However, I don't have a problem with treating Spain as a minor power. The country was an economic basketcase after the devastation of the Spanish Civil War which is why Franco was very reluctant to offer much more than under the table assistance to the Axis powers.




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/17/2020 4:49:23 PM)

Spain is connected to Germany, thus the MMPs. Now, Germany dishing Italy some cash, sure. Minus 15% usury + graft + corruption fee would work for once year gift. Tax deductible of course




Elessar2 -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/17/2020 4:59:56 PM)

I just wish the AI would upgrade its minor's units. Time & time again I run across Commonwealth ships with no upgrades, most commonly destroyers.




Tulius Hostilius -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/17/2020 5:12:35 PM)

It makes sense that Spain is a minor in the game, often the country doesn't even enter in the war. Furthermore all the slots for majors are occupied.

But a trade route by land between Germany and Italy would make sense, we see that in the game “Strategic Command: World War I “, between Russia and Serbia, and between Germany and Austria-Hungary.

Can it be implemented in this one?




Platoonist -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/17/2020 5:25:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ReinerAllen

Also, why is Spain considered a minor? It should be able to stand on its own (my humble opinion).



Pretty much every major game title on the Second World War I've ever seen treats Spain as a "minor" power. Third Reich, World in Flames, Gary Grigsby's World at War to mention a few. This game just follows the established trend.

It's no slur on Spain, but she had been in slow decline as a major European player since the 18th Century with an ugly civil war in the 20th to boot. If you set up a WW2 global game and divided the nations among players not too many hands would go up to play Spain. Sometimes it's hard to find someone who wants to play backwards and divided China which just barely qualifies to be major power due to its sheer size.




The Land -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/17/2020 5:29:38 PM)

On the whole the series is too generous with minors. It treats them all as industrialised nations able to use the same equipment and organisation as the corresponding Major and willing to give their entire industrial surplus to the war effort. Fine for some minors (Canada in WW2, Belgium in WW1...), sort of fine for some others (the Central European states in WW2), and entirely wrong for others (Spain in WW2, Greece or Bulgaria in WW1...)





Xsillione -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 9:09:03 AM)

Yep, an industrial modifier would be nice for the minors, 0 for the most well equipped ones (Canada and similar), making them able to reach the majors full tech level, -1 for most (Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and likes) making them able to only reach 1 level less than the major (so lvl 1 inf, if Germany has lvl 2), and -2 for the really backwards ones, so even if Afghanistan gets into the war, it won't produce current year tech from day one. Maybe some events and ways to improve this, so if you want, you can advance the likely -1 spain into 0, to get the most out of them, if you willing to pay for it.




HamburgerMeat -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 11:51:45 AM)

I think the series takes this into account by increasing the cost of upgrades for minors




Tulius Hostilius -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 12:09:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist
It's no slur on Spain, but she had been in slow decline as a major European player since the 18th Century with an ugly civil war in the 20th to boot. If you set up a WW2 global game and divided the nations among players not too many hands would go up to play Spain. Sometimes it's hard to find someone who wants to play backwards and divided China which just barely qualifies to be major power due to its sheer size.


Off topic, we can almost say that Spain had at least one Civil War per century!

I would like to underline that the 10 existing slots for majors are all full.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land
On the whole the series is too generous with minors. It treats them all as industrialised nations able to use the same equipment and organisation as the corresponding Major and willing to give their entire industrial surplus to the war effort. Fine for some minors (Canada in WW2, Belgium in WW1...), sort of fine for some others (the Central European states in WW2), and entirely wrong for others (Spain in WW2, Greece or Bulgaria in WW1...)


I think that the trade of wolfram of Spain to Germany is well represented. It could be added the Portuguese trade with Germany. Those countries had huge positive trade balanced during the war, exporting everything they had, including food, while their populations had hunger.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeatI think the series takes this into account by increasing the cost of upgrades for minors

True.




Xsillione -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 1:54:29 PM)

Not really increased cost, just the production cost reduction not applied. But in the early war that is quite small, yet the minors get all the fancy lvl 2 infantry stuff and even lvl 2 fighters/armors for Germany at the low cost al almost nothing, esp on the units that already exists. Very easy to have better Romanian and Bulgarian troops than italian, since italy needs to research and apply it with its own miniscule income.




Tulius Hostilius -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 2:08:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xsillione

Not really increased cost, just the production cost reduction not applied. But in the early war that is quite small, yet the minors get all the fancy lvl 2 infantry stuff and even lvl 2 fighters/armors for Germany at the low cost al almost nothing, esp on the units that already exists. Very easy to have better Romanian and Bulgarian troops than italian, since italy needs to research and apply it with its own miniscule income.


Also true, on the other side it is often quite difficult to have the Indian infantry on a similar level than some British minors.




eightroomofelixir -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 6:00:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tulius Hostilius
Also true, on the other side it is often quite difficult to have the Indian infantry on a similar level than some British minors.


In my current game I saved DEI from Japanese attacks. As for now, DEI has a uber fighter unit that can take down a part of Japanese air force single-handedly because of British level technology, while Indian fighters are in danger of being eliminated during any escort mission.

Realistically speaking, UK would probably upgrade Indian forces first rather than care about what's left in Indonesia.




Tulius Hostilius -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 6:40:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eightroomofelixir

In my current game I saved DEI from Japanese attacks. As for now, DEI has a uber fighter unit that can take down a part of Japanese air force single-handedly because of British level technology, while Indian fighters are in danger of being eliminated during any escort mission.

Realistically speaking, UK would probably upgrade Indian forces first rather than care about what's left in Indonesia.


Indeed, India can easily be changed to UK’s minor in the editor, but I don’t know how that would change the game balance. A lot, I would imagine….




eightroomofelixir -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 8:01:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tulius Hostilius
Indeed, India can easily be changed to UK’s minor in the editor, but I don’t know how that would change the game balance. A lot, I would imagine….


Not only UK's income will boost, but India also has some of the best HQs, which I assume are for offsetting India's weakness as a major (although I would argue that Slim is worth a high rating). Slim, Mountbatten, and Giffard are all rating 7, while UK metropole only has one rating 7, Montgomery.
Imagine a fully upgraded Indian Army commanded by 7-9 rating HQs coming into Burma, facing Masakazu Kawabe who is only rating 5.




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 8:07:07 PM)

General Slim, lol. Saw him on the history channel, but not for good things post-WW2. Did they remove the streets named after him?

Burma, Singapore and Viet-frickin' 'Nam is one of my favorite battle areas on the board.




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 8:08:02 PM)

Oh, far as upgrading tech on minors, want to say there's no discount on price, while the Major does receive discounts on Production tech.




ReinerAllen -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/18/2020 9:11:11 PM)

Quote from Platoonist: Pretty much every major game title on the Second World War I've ever seen treats Spain as a "minor" power. Third Reich, World in Flames, Gary Grigsby's World at War to mention a few. This game just follows the established trend.

I agree, but the units you can recruit in Third Reich from a minor remain sub-par to a German or Allied unit. Not sure about Grigsby's work.




eightroomofelixir -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 12:06:04 AM)

Yes, they did remove one in Australia.




FOARP -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 7:18:26 AM)

Disagree that having all the slots filled is a bar on making Spain a major - it should be relatively easy for the developers simply just to add another slot. More of an issue in this system is the seeming requirement that each major has a "side" which it can only ever join. Also there's the game-play implications of having yet another major to manage.

On the other side, well, Finland is a major power in WIE, and pretty much all of the reasons for this apply also to Spain in WAW: it is geographically separated from Germany so it makes no sense for German resources to be used in Spain or vice-versa, it is relatively powerful.




Tulius Hostilius -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 7:51:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo
General Slim, lol. Saw him on the history channel, but not for good things post-WW2. Did they remove the streets named after him?


Hehehe! The History Channel rarely talks about history. From some years ago it is more specialized in trivia and pseudo-history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOARP
Disagree that having all the slots filled is a bar on making Spain a major - it should be relatively easy for the developers simply just to add another slot. More of an issue in this system is the seeming requirement that each major has a "side" which it can only ever join. Also there's the game-play implications of having yet another major to manage.

When I said that is “a bar” was with the current game version and editor. Naturally developers can make almost “all” happened. It is a question of time and money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOARP
On the other side, well, Finland is a major power in WIE, and pretty much all of the reasons for this apply also to Spain in WAW: it is geographically separated from Germany so it makes no sense for German resources to be used in Spain or vice-versa, it is relatively powerful.


Historically Finland participated in the war. Spain didn’t.




Torplexed -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 8:49:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOARP
On the other side, well, Finland is a major power in WIE, and pretty much all of the reasons for this apply also to Spain in WAW: it is geographically separated from Germany so it makes no sense for German resources to be used in Spain or vice-versa, it is relatively powerful.


The manual for WIE describes Finland as a minor power. You can't play Finland alone by itself in that game like Germany or Italy.

It seems to me you would have to draw the major/minor line somewhere. If Spain is a major power, why can't Turkey or Sweden be major powers too? They had good sized military establishments. Heck, Brazil had a decent sized navy with a few battleships. I don't think this game is meant to be like Hearts of Iron where all nations are playable and you can try your hand at conquering the world playing Bhutan or Tibet.

I must confess I'm really not sure why India is counted as a playable nation though. She was pretty much just another colonial dominion of the British Empire like Canada or Australia, and reliant on Britain for her military kit.




Tulius Hostilius -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 10:23:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOARP
On the other side, well, Finland is a major power in WIE, and pretty much all of the reasons for this apply also to Spain in WAW: it is geographically separated from Germany so it makes no sense for German resources to be used in Spain or vice-versa, it is relatively powerful.


The manual for WIE describes Finland as a minor power. You can't play Finland alone by itself in that game like Germany or Italy.

It seems to me you would have to draw the major/minor line somewhere. If Spain is a major power, why can't Turkey or Sweden be major powers too? They had good sized military establishments. Heck, Brazil had a decent sized navy with a few battleships. I don't think this game is meant to be like Hearts of Iron where all nations are playable and you can try your hand at conquering the world playing Bhutan or Tibet.

I must confess I'm really not sure why India is counted as a playable nation though. She was pretty much just another colonial dominion of the British Empire like Canada or Australia, and reliant on Britain for her military kit.



Every game has its issues. I think that was a decision for game balance, but it bothers me a little, just as some parts of the British Empire that are perpetually Neutral in West Africa, since they aren’t worth of the diplomatic effort to bring them to the Allies (and much less to the Axis), such as Nigeria, Ghana, Sierra Leone and Gambia.

It also bothers me that Goa belongs to India, since it was Portuguese until 1961.




Dalwin -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 7:32:33 PM)

At least, upgrading (and reinforcing) minors is more expensive and therefor less efficient than doing it for German (or UK) units. I assume German players always research at least 1 or 2 notches of production tech. That discount does not apply to minor units.




Dalwin -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 7:35:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tulius Hostilius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOARP
On the other side, well, Finland is a major power in WIE, and pretty much all of the reasons for this apply also to Spain in WAW: it is geographically separated from Germany so it makes no sense for German resources to be used in Spain or vice-versa, it is relatively powerful.


The manual for WIE describes Finland as a minor power. You can't play Finland alone by itself in that game like Germany or Italy.

It seems to me you would have to draw the major/minor line somewhere. If Spain is a major power, why can't Turkey or Sweden be major powers too? They had good sized military establishments. Heck, Brazil had a decent sized navy with a few battleships. I don't think this game is meant to be like Hearts of Iron where all nations are playable and you can try your hand at conquering the world playing Bhutan or Tibet.

I must confess I'm really not sure why India is counted as a playable nation though. She was pretty much just another colonial dominion of the British Empire like Canada or Australia, and reliant on Britain for her military kit.



Every game has its issues. I think that was a decision for game balance, but it bothers me a little, just as some parts of the British Empire that are perpetually Neutral in West Africa, since they aren’t worth of the diplomatic effort to bring them to the Allies (and much less to the Axis), such as Nigeria, Ghana, Sierra Leone and Gambia.

It also bothers me that Goa belongs to India, since it was Portuguese until 1961.


At the scale of the map, Goa is small enough that it should likely not even be represented. It is not like Hong Kong which belonged to one of the belligerents and was at least nominally defended. If Portugal had joined the Axis, India would have seized Goa very quickly with virtually no resistance. It not being shown as Portuguese is fine in this game.




eightroomofelixir -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 7:52:24 PM)

Goa has a large natural harbor and an important port named Mormugao, which was one of the major export ports of colonial India and had seen actions in WWII (Operation Creek).




Platoonist -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 8:08:03 PM)

Goa eventually became a haven for Axis agents. In the Portuguese colony of Macau in China the Japanese exerted considerable control through "advisors" whom the Portuguese administration were in no position to resist, and East Timor was occupied successively by the Australians and then the Japanese. You get the sense neither side respected Portuguese neutrality very much. [:D]




Tulius Hostilius -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/19/2020 10:38:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dalwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tulius Hostilius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOARP
On the other side, well, Finland is a major power in WIE, and pretty much all of the reasons for this apply also to Spain in WAW: it is geographically separated from Germany so it makes no sense for German resources to be used in Spain or vice-versa, it is relatively powerful.


The manual for WIE describes Finland as a minor power. You can't play Finland alone by itself in that game like Germany or Italy.

It seems to me you would have to draw the major/minor line somewhere. If Spain is a major power, why can't Turkey or Sweden be major powers too? They had good sized military establishments. Heck, Brazil had a decent sized navy with a few battleships. I don't think this game is meant to be like Hearts of Iron where all nations are playable and you can try your hand at conquering the world playing Bhutan or Tibet.

I must confess I'm really not sure why India is counted as a playable nation though. She was pretty much just another colonial dominion of the British Empire like Canada or Australia, and reliant on Britain for her military kit.



Every game has its issues. I think that was a decision for game balance, but it bothers me a little, just as some parts of the British Empire that are perpetually Neutral in West Africa, since they aren’t worth of the diplomatic effort to bring them to the Allies (and much less to the Axis), such as Nigeria, Ghana, Sierra Leone and Gambia.

It also bothers me that Goa belongs to India, since it was Portuguese until 1961.


At the scale of the map, Goa is small enough that it should likely not even be represented. It is not like Hong Kong which belonged to one of the belligerents and was at least nominally defended. If Portugal had joined the Axis, India would have seized Goa very quickly with virtually no resistance. It not being shown as Portuguese is fine in this game.


Indeed, but it was not British, or better of the British Raj. Other options could be considered, as another city. Portugal joinning the Axis would be quite a-historical.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

Goa eventually became a haven for Axis agents. In the Portuguese colony of Macau in China the Japanese exerted considerable control through "advisors" whom the Portuguese administration were in no position to resist, and East Timor was occupied successively by the Australians and then the Japanese. You get the sense neither side respected Portuguese neutrality very much. [:D]


The Portuguese Timor was the only Portuguese territory that was invaded, by the Australians, when there was ship on the way to reinforce the Portuguese garrison (it wouldn’t make much difference, it was symbolic). There were spies in all the neutral countries. For instance, Lisbon was a paradise for spies, from both sides. As Goa, as you say. Later in the war the USA bombard Macau, but if I recall correctly, later Portugal received a compensation.





FOARP -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/20/2020 12:26:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dalwin

At the scale of the map, Goa is small enough that it should likely not even be represented. It is not like Hong Kong which belonged to one of the belligerents and was at least nominally defended. If Portugal had joined the Axis, India would have seized Goa very quickly with virtually no resistance. It not being shown as Portuguese is fine in this game.


I'm agnostic about most of the points raised here, but as a simple point of fact, Goa was/is more than 1,400 square miles in area, which makes it larger than e.g., Luxembourg, and comparable in size to e.g., the Cotentin peninsula. This doesn't mean it has to be represented on-map, but it is definitely not too small. Were it represented on-map, it would probably be a single hex with a town on it and a port adjacent to it.




Sovyetsky -> RE: Upgrading the Units of a Minor (5/28/2020 4:17:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ReinerAllen
Also, why is Spain considered a minor? It should be able to stand on its own (my humble opinion).

Comments are welcome.


Spain was a wreck after the civil war, there is a reason Franco didn't throw in his lot with Hitler.




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