TBF Game observations (Full Version)

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STIENER -> TBF Game observations (4/27/2020 7:12:37 AM)

been playing some more battles and played some H2H operations with RD Knights since the new update...here are some things we have observed that need attention.

1] the game timer...its slow...can be almost twice as long to play a 20 min game.
we turned off ground clutter and turned off shadows. it helped marginally. this is a real issue id say...its been posted a few times by different people.

im running a reasonably good PC ...its an I5-4590 CPU @ 3.3 GHZ 8 GB Ram and NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750TI graphics card.
one would think that this PC would be able to play this game easily.

2]the MG 42 just sucks.....lot of ammo expended but it kills no one really. the BAR is a better MG in the game and that just isn't historical by any measure.

3] tank main gun reload time. german tanks are similar... it takes a Sherman 20 + - seconds to reload its main gun. WOW....this is after it decides for awhile weather its going to actually shoot its main gun at a target.
we also noticed that the Sherman....if it moves after firing its main gun...doesn't reload automatically...the next time its asked to shoot the main gun it has to load a round. the rd should have already been loaded.

4] Morale is an issue....especially for the german side. the germans fold pretty easily....even if the morale setting for them is higher than motivated.

5] a/t guns are not really effective at all. you have to set them up in the open for the most part...and they don't dig in usually. they have a slow rate of fire. they wont set up in a hedge? they are easily supressed and shot up by the allied BAR..in the case of the germans. pretty much useless

can we look into some of this stuff please?

PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/27/2020 3:26:25 PM)

If you were playing MP then the speed of the other machine will also effect the game speed. You might also try opening a port for direct connection to see if the geographical positioning of the players is causing some latency.



RD Knight -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/28/2020 2:04:49 AM)

PiP....You might not recognize RD Knight screen name, but I helped Steve write the manual for this game. I had no issues play testing, all be it playing against the the AI. Only one H2H game with Steve to test the multiplayer process. My computer specs meet or exceed the requirements posted in the manual. So, the problem Steiner described with the game timer wouldn't appear to be related to the Host's (I hosted the battles) computer.

Your thoughts....

STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/28/2020 3:34:19 AM)

hi Pip
to add to what RD Knights said.......geographically were close...im in Vancouver Canada and knights is in California. relatively close per say considering some of the other CC gamer's that hook up. we have played a lot of CC over the years and haven't had connectivity issues.

what are your thoughts on the other issues I posted above?


PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/28/2020 2:43:16 PM)

I don't have any insight into the gameplay questions. Were you direct connected or using the routing server?



STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/28/2020 9:20:22 PM)

hi pip
we were using the game multiplayer lobby...so routing server?

maybe you can get Steve McClaire to have a look at this post then and respond to the other concerns please?


PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/28/2020 11:14:15 PM)

If you are directly connected you should see a message saying as such when you guys are in the lobby. If you don't see that (as the client IIRC) then you are using the routing server. If you could try setting up the host with their ports open it would help to try and track down why you are seeing this kind of slowdown.



STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/29/2020 12:21:46 AM)

ok.....were using the routing server. were not directly connected.
I don't know how to open my ports ...so we will have to see if knights can do that and see.
what feed back ...if any... are you getting from other players that have this issue?

STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/30/2020 6:15:04 AM)

played some more battles....with RD Knights and solo....the yank 37 mm A/T gun in the 1st blood battle has the same issues as the tanks...reload time is just bad.....15 seconds to reload. unrealistic.

in the Cobra operation...the german tanks have the same reload issue as the Sherman....takes 20+ seconds to reload. the tanks move way to slowwww as well. so this is a game issue not just a one tank issue. im betting all the tanks have similar reload times. A/T guns too.

and the timer issue...wow...took us 45 mins to play a 15 min battle in MP. that just wrecks the game IMO. TBF has to be played MP it seems as the AI still isn't a fight and the timer issue is just bad.

Steve McClaire...your thoughts please.


SteveMcClaire -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/30/2020 4:28:16 PM)

The reload time for most of the large caliber guns is 6 (37mm) to 10 (75mm) seconds. If you are seeing a large slowdown while playing multi-player than that simulated time it takes to reload these guns is going to be stretched out as well.

We can debate the relative effectiveness of various weapons in the game but ultimately it's subjective. Not to say we won't make tweaks to things going forward but these are a matter of opinion.

STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (4/30/2020 6:18:52 PM)

thanks for the feed back steve.

the gun reload times were seeing is using a watch with a second timer. even with the slow down in MP timer...the times don't correlate with each other.[ the reload time...the game timer....and the stretched out simulated reload time ]
the other thing is that yes were seeing the reload times in MP are way slow but im also seeing this in single player against the AI where the game timer is NOT an issue...IE: the 37 mm a/t gun. im only having game timer issues in MP.

yes you could say that we can debate the relative effectiveness of various weapons in the game but ultimately it's subjective. but who's opinion are you going to listen to?? the players...me and others....that are buying and playing the game or who? there have been others who have expressed the same concern of the weapon effectiveness....we have both seen the posts...particularly the MG 42 but now theres also the tanks and a/t guns.

and...whats with that MP game timer? could it be the lobby? we both have PC's that meet and or exceed the game requirement's as far as I can see.

your thoughts steve?


STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/1/2020 12:42:00 AM)

also steve........
not sure if you read my point about the tanks not reloading after they fire a main gun round. they never have an AP rd or even an HE rd loaded. a/t guns too.

example: Sherman loads a main gun rd after being given a fire order [ because he hasn't already got one loaded for some reason ] ...he fires. if he continues to fire at that target he will reload. if he does not continue to fire at the target or the tank is given a move order ....the tank will not reload another rd. so the next time he is given a fire order he has to load the rd.

you can see how this is a big issue...and quite frankly doesn't make any sense at all....if the tank happens on a good opportunity to say shoot at another tank in the rear.....he has to load the round first !! and that gives the other tank time to move out of the way or go to cover or what ever.....see what I mean?

the a/t guns also don't reload once the target is stopped firing at.

in all the other CC games the tank will have an AP rd loaded...in most cases. im sure you know what im talking about.
now you might say that historically / realistically that a tank gunner and loader might not have a rd in the chamber all the time....this could be true depending on the circumstances at that particular time. if the tank was in a tank battle he would reload an AP rd right after the shot was fired. it only makes combat sense.

what do you think?


mukiblejlok -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/1/2020 10:43:58 AM)

well my experience with tanks is different. for example, after he fired (ap), i give him order to move back to cover. while moving he is reloading as well. after reloading is finished (ap), i just move him again to open area and give him order to fire. he immediately starts to aim, no reloading..

SteveMcClaire -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/1/2020 6:00:53 PM)

If a useful round is loaded already tanks and AT guns should fire that instead of reloading. If you are switching targets you can end up in a state where the gun keeps reloading as every new FIRE order will cause the gunner to abort his current action and start over. If he's reloading that will mean he starts reloading again. This is something that's on the list of issues to look at.

STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/8/2020 6:41:33 AM)

ok...heres an update on our game and timer issues etc.

1] knights and I played 1 battle of the operation cobra operation a few days ago. it was the marigny map. we stopped after the 1st few battles on the map. the allies did not push the germans off the map.
tonite we resumed the operation. once the operation loaded...we were both in the planning screen and hit " next" and the game kicked us back to the lobby. we could not get the operation to continue. we tried 3 times...all 3 times...the same...back to lobby. whats going on here?

2] " MP game timer" ...so we loaded up the sicily operation and played 4 or 5 battles [ got into the second map of the operation ]
we had already In the game options, turned off ground clutter, turned off shadows, and set antialiasing to none last week when playing operation cobra. we were having major timer issues.....a 15 min game took more than an hr. we reported this to you guys as above.
steve McClaire also advised us to NOT use the CTRL key for LOS as this may slow things down. we were using CTRL los in the cobra operation and as stated were having timer issues.
so tonite ...along with all the other stuff turned OFF.. we did not use the CTRL key. WE HAD NO TIMER ISSUES.

so...is it the CTRL key and all the other things turned off or was it operation cobra that's messed up? that solved the timer issue?

no update on the tank reload issue as in the 1st few sicily battles the allies have no tanks. will keep u posted.

your thoughts Pip and steve.........

I just saw that there is a new patch out...tonight we were using the 1.1.1 patch still. not the new version 1.1.3

PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/8/2020 3:09:27 PM)

There was a game loading issue that was fixed in 1.1.3 so that could explain the loading problem you were having.

The LOS tool is extremely GPU intensive and so you should check your framerate when using it (SHIFT+Q). There is an option for lower quality LOS display which may help.

You don't mention if you were playing directly connected.



STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/8/2020 4:58:11 PM)

@ Pip.....we were not directly connected. no message of that upon connecting.

we will check the frame rate next battle. so when you use the " Shift +Q " it will display an option for lower quality LOS?

we will load the new patch as well for next battle.


PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/8/2020 8:51:30 PM)

SHIFT+Q shows your framerate in the top left of the screen. The option for faster LOS is on the options screen.



STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/14/2020 8:02:45 AM)

played 2 more battles of the bocage operation with RD Knights tonite. we both have the new patch.

still no direct connection even tho knights who hosted opened the 1944 port. if you want more info on this Pip...maybe e mail him and ask a few questions. Steve McClaire has his e mail addy.

timer was slow tonite ....1 sec = 2 sec's. we did not use CTRL button for LOS as you suggested when fighting the battles. knights did use it in the initial deploy tho.
I have the option for high quality LOS turned OFF...box unchecked.as you suggested.

last week we played the Sicily operation and the timer was fine. this week we played the bocage operation and the timer was out of sink....could it have something to do with amount of stuff on the maps??

with the new patch...inf firing positions are still not great or even any better. I watched more than one squad position poorly at the back of a house instead at the front...this happened a few times...had to micro manage them and still had issues getting them to go to the front of the house.

tanks movement is painfully slow...even on fast...this is ongoing...got nothing to do with the timer per say....because its the same against the AI where the timer is not an issue. whats up with this???? I think someone even modded it to speed them up??I think I read that.

tank main gun reload is still painful....14 to 20 seconds.. and then another 6 sec to AIM before they actually fire. seriously?? and it still appears they don't reload after they fire a rd and the target is gone. they still have to reload when a new target is acquired after a period of time. this needs to be fixed. this was an issue last game when the timer was not an issue.
have seen the reload go into the cycle you noted...where it switches from APC to HE and then back to APC...needs fixing. this is big game issue.

main gun accuracy is pathetic, for lack of a better word. I have been watching this for awhile now. tonite I watched my tank...after waiting for it to reload....miss a target....an inf gun that was 79m away ...green LOS...miss 4 times...the 1st 3 rds fell at the same spot at 34m away from the tank !!! seriously???? and then it missed again and finally got the target on the 5th shot !!!
this happens a lot...well maybe not that bad....but the tanks and guns miss almost as much as they hit. whats with this???? its close combat....." close " combat.

I also watched my tank shoot at a dug in inf squad for about 8 shots of HE and the tank still did not kill that squad...that's not including the MG fire the tank was shooting...whats with that??? its a tank firing HE on inf...that's what its for.

this game is far from polished IMO...

the air support I've used so far have hit nothing of consequence...miss the main target 9 out of 10 times so far.
the arty support usually doesn't do a lot of damage...let along hit the target area. mortar support the same. I know this support can go off track some what but its pretty bad as far as hitting close and in a good grouping and then doesn't kill much.

not only tank main gun accuracy is bad but shreak and other weapons as well. watched a shreak miss a tank twice where the shreak rd went over the top of the tank by another 50m or so and hit a house. WOW.

your thoughts gentlemen..

PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/14/2020 3:02:36 PM)

+ What is the actual framerate you are both running at? SHIFT+Q.

+ If it did not say you were directly connected then you were not. This is based on the router setup, and is entirely router dependent. There isn't a ton I can do, but I am happy to help if he wishes to post here with his router details.



SchnelleMeyer -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/14/2020 4:23:11 PM)

Agree on the accuracy Steiner! This is the model of "accuracy" that was implemented with Last stand Arnhem. It wasnt good then, and its even worse the way its implemented in this version. I honestly cant play this game because of frustration of the mechanics. I really want to like it - From the start of the development I wanted to like it.
Now I just wish there was a way that Matrix would continue the 2D line of close combat games..

STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/14/2020 7:12:02 PM)

sorry pip...I forgot to check the frame rate...will check next time we battle.

@ schnelleMeyer.....glad someone else chimed in here. whats your thoughts on tank reload? and did you have any timer issues?

STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/14/2020 7:31:22 PM)

@pip...ill talk to knights about his router....you also mentioned in another thread you can make alterations to the networking code?

PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/14/2020 8:11:45 PM)



@pip...ill talk to knights about his router....you also mentioned in another thread you can make alterations to the networking code?

Not without actual information about the possible causes of any issues.

WRT frame rates, what would be ideal would be FPS values from each of you for both SP and MP on the same map.



STIENER -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/14/2020 9:32:55 PM)

OK....whats WRT mean and FPS...I assume there both frame rates using the shift Q ?

any comments on the other stuff I mentioned with the game?

RD Knight -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/15/2020 5:38:46 AM)

PIP.....I just loaded up a map with lots of buildings. When I executed shift+Q, I got numbers similar to 44-45 H: (avg) 30 T:0...however, the numbers kept fluctuating. Is this the information you are requesting? The data was obtained in a game against the AI. The timer appeared to be advancing as it should.

Saturnian -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/15/2020 6:40:30 AM)


timer was slow tonite ....1 sec = 2 sec's.

I get this sporadically on single player as well. Sometimes, for some reason I can't explain, the game will start running at half speed. It often starts halfway through the battle so something happening during the battle seems to trigger it. Doesn't necessarily have to be a battle with a lot of units for it to happen.

As a side note I also find the reloading for tanks and AT guns to be frustrating. And seeing the little clock counter, it makes it feel too rigid, like they aren't real soldiers. I'd like more variation and less of a rigid design for it. I think they load, then they aim and it just feels like you are waiting for machine rather than getting the feel there is a crew working. Then if they lose their target, they have to aim all over again. It is missing the human intuition component. Maybe if they engage a target in the same area they should take less time to aim. It would feel more human that way. It is similar with "Setting up" where if you move the unit just a few feet they have to set up all over again before they act. Things like that can interfere with the gameplay.

That being said, I still love the game. But there are some kinks I hope are ironed out before the next big release.

PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/15/2020 2:19:57 PM)



OK....whats WRT mean and FPS...I assume there both frame rates using the shift Q ?

any comments on the other stuff I mentioned with the game?

WRT - with respect to
FPS - frames per second

SHIFT+Q shows the frames per second.



PipFromSlitherine -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/15/2020 2:20:29 PM)



PIP.....I just loaded up a map with lots of buildings. When I executed shift+Q, I got numbers similar to 44-45 H: (avg) 30 T:0...however, the numbers kept fluctuating. Is this the information you are requesting? The data was obtained in a game against the AI. The timer appeared to be advancing as it should.

Great. Thanks. If you can repeat next time you are in MP that would be awesome.



mukiblejlok -> RE: TBF Game observations (5/17/2020 7:48:58 AM)

i think fps and timer problems occure mainly when playing mp

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