Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (Full Version)

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canuckgamer -> Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/10/2020 7:30:16 PM)

Naval warfare in SC is handled the same as land movement and combat, the only difference being subs can dive. For this reason and the change in scale for Europe in SC WAW I did not buy it even with the Xmas sale.
Historically, CVs provided the balance of power in the Pacific. Historically as far as I know, the only time a CV of any size was sunk or even engaged by surface ships was late in the war when one or two American escort carriers were sunk or damaged by Japanese surface ships. It might have been in the battle of Leyte Gulf. In SC, CVs are continually sunk by enemy surface ships.
Because there is no stacking in SC you can't even screen CVs from enemy surface ships unless you have 6 ships occupying each surrounding hex. Because of the limited attack range of the aircraft on CVs, 2 hexes the enemy always knows where an attacking CV is.
I have some proposed changes to at least bring a little realism to the game.
1. The aircraft on CVs should have the same range as tactical bombers and fighters. As in my 2nd suggestion, the enemy ship being attacked would not know where your CV is.
2. When you right click on a CV there should be the option to search 2 hexes in the Atlantic and 1 hex in the Pacific at the same range as tactical bombers and fighters. If they spot an enemy ship they can attack it immediately if it wants. This way the enemy ship because of the increased range does not know where the CV is.
3. Currently in the game, when a ship bumps in to an enemy ship that they did not know was there, it gets decimated why the enemy ship hardly suffers any damage. This should only occur when the moving ship is using naval cruise.
I know the SC series is what I call a beer and pretzels wargame but how the navies are handled is the biggest disappointment for me. I have a circle of friends who still play board wargames and now computer wargames. One of them played 2 games of SC WIE by PBEM and won't play it again. His comment was that it is not a wargame.






Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/10/2020 8:23:15 PM)

Have you looked into the Naval Mod? I've changed a number of parameters to make the naval game more realistic.

The two major changes are giving ships Zones of Control so the proper use of screening forces can keep you carriers out of harms way. The other is Carriers now have a Defensive Evasion of 70%. So even if you somehow get your carrier caught you have only a 30% chance of being damaged by a surface ship.

Also carriers have a search range of 8 hexs and CVLs of 6.

In addition ships in the mod are grouped in Task Forces simulating what the world's navies historically organized themselves.

Have your friend who owns the game go to this thread HERE and dowload the Naval Mod and see if it does the job. You should go there and a read the discussions and both of you can watch youtube videos of the mod here

Here is the Naval Mod Readme :

Major hypotheses
1. Ships were grouped in Task Forces which combined different classes that were combined to perform a specific task. Hence the name.
2. The majority of the names I have chosen for the Task Forces are names the US Navy used (the US Navy used a lot of names). There are a few exceptions and I ask for suggestions.
3. Rarely were single capital ships sent out, apart from the Germans, who sent out lone Raiders.
4. Without air support, it was very rare for capital ships to meet in the open ocean.
5. Airpower is deadly against ships.
6. Destroyers, Submarines, transports, and to a certain extent, light cruisers, were sunk by the hundreds while relatively few capital ships were sunk in the open ocean. The ones that were, were usually on suicide missions like the Yamato.
7. Aircraft carriers and Jeep carriers were rarely caught by surface ships and attacked.
8. Submarines were successful at damaging capital ships when they got the chance.
9. Task Forces were able to impede other naval vessels from bypassing their locations similar to the war gaming convention of Zones of Control. They caused other ships to slow down or even change course to avoid being attacked. Rarely did one Task Force pass through another unconstrained.
10. Task Forces usually consisted of 2 or more capital ships of the same class, ie.2 or more Battleships or Carriers were assigned to the same Task Force.

Universal changes

All Task Forces have a zone of control of +6.
All TF have defensive evasion ratings of 40% and above
Most TF with spotter planes have increased naval and land spotting zones of 3 or more hexes
Most capital ships have two strikes
The amount of capital ships has been reduced by half representing two ships of the same class in the same TF, ie. 2 BB in a Strike Task Force or 2 CV in a Fast Carrier Task Force.

Unit Changes

The Dreadnaught unit has been changed to represent the “Bombardment Task Force”. Strength of 9, +4 vs most land units, 40%, defensive evasion, increased land spotting range of 2, 2 strikes.

The BB unit has been changed to the “Strike Task Force”. Strength of 10, +2 vs Naval, + 1 Naval spotting, 45% Defensive evasion, 2 strikes.

The CC unit = “Covering Task Force”. Strength of 8, 2 land and naval spotting, 45% def evasion, 2 strikes.

The CA unit = “Raider Task Force”. Strength 7, raider multiplier increased to 10, National Moral loss +50, 2 hex naval spotting, 50 definsive evasion, 2 strikes.

The CL unit = “Recon Task Force”. Strength 6, 3 hex naval spotting, 50% def evasion, 2 strikes.

The DD unit = “Screening Task Force”. Strength of 6, +1 AA, +1 ASW, 60% def evasion.

The SS unit is now “Wolf Pack”. Strength of 8

The CVL = “Hunter Killer Task Force”. Strength of 8, +6 ASW, 2 intercept, 5 hex naval spotting, 60% def evasion.

The CV = “Fast Carrier Task Force”. Strength of 10, 2 intercepts, 2 escorts, + 8 naval spotting, 60% def evasion, 2 strikes.

The MT unit = “Off Shore Task Force” no change.

Maritime Bomber unit has 8 hex naval spotting, +6 ASW and 18 hex range, 2 strikes

Put the files in the Campaign folder that is usually found ...

C:\Users\"YOUR_COMPUTER"\Documents\My Games\Strategic Command WWII - War In Europe/Campaigns

In SC3 World At War, the Naval Mods are part of the Community Pack and come free with the game. I'm working on the SC3 World War I mod now.




PvtBenjamin -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/10/2020 8:32:07 PM)

I (and many) completely agree that the naval component needs a major makeover. The game is primarily a land game which is excellent. I have learned how to manage the naval side so that it doesn't have major negative implications. If you get deep into a game with a comparable opponent its a blast.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/10/2020 8:41:41 PM)

Your mod looks very detailed and interesting. When I clicked on the link there were three files:

1939 Storm over Europe od.cgn 38.18 MB
1939 Storm over Europe od.dat 3.75 KB
1939 Storm over Europe ai mod

Do I put all three in the Campaign folder? Is the last one for solo games?

As we are currently in to the end of 1942 in our PBEM game I'll wait until we finish to try the mod. One more question, with your mod would we have to reinstall it each time there is an update/patch?

Thanks for the mod.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 3:31:57 AM)

Yes put all three in the campaign folder.

The last file is a folder where most of the mod is. There are new bitmap units, a file that changes those units, and intro etc.

There is no need for a solo mod. The designer's AI does an excellent job of using the mod. I was very surprised and pleased when it picked up on the changes.

The need to change or reinstall the mod would depend upon how extensive the update/patch is. So far it has worked with all updates.

Take a look at my World War Three 1946 mod as well if you want a challenge. If you play solo, play NATO and if you play another play let the best one take NATO. That mod adds some new units like Wasserfal SAMs, primitive missile boats, Seahund mini subs and first generation jets. It will take you out of your comfort zone if you're bored with replaying WWII.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 3:36:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

Your mod looks very detailed and interesting. When I clicked on the link there were three files:

1939 Storm over Europe od.cgn 38.18 MB
1939 Storm over Europe od.dat 3.75 KB
1939 Storm over Europe ai mod

Do I put all three in the Campaign folder? Is the last one for solo games?

As we are currently in to the end of 1942 in our PBEM game I'll wait until we finish to try the mod. One more question, with your mod would we have to reinstall it each time there is an update/patch?

Thanks for the mod.



Try the naval mods. I think you'll be surprised, The remainder of the the game is the same. I only changed the parts in the naval game that were not historical and seemed to bother most who had an opinion.




Gilber -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 2:52:59 PM)

Surely stacking naval units would greatly improve the realism of the game.
(This way a CV could be defended by a battleshp on the same hex).




PvtBenjamin -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 3:02:12 PM)

Adding some type of visibility range component. Maybe Naval HQ's that add attributes like visibility to the group.

Don't know bump & boom has to go.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 5:12:50 PM)

No offense Gilber but there is some kind of myth that surface ships regularly caught and sank fast cv task forces. I was one of those who thought this until I did the research. There were exactly two instances where a CV or CVL were caught. One was the HMS Glorious who had a former submariner as Captain. There was no combat patrol, search planes or even a lookout in the crows nest. Once the Germans were spotted he didn't alter course. There were no planes on standby for quick launch. The guy did almost everything wrong you can think of.

The other was a jeep carrier caught in the wrong place at the wrong time by the last of the Japanese fleet at the end of the war. A bad decision by Halsey left them exposed and ripe for a battleship or two being masked by the Solaman Islands. The task force Taffy 3 still gave a good account of itself and almost got away.

5% of the carriers sunk in WWII were sunk by gunfire or surface combat. 95% were not and were sunk by air powere or submarines. My point is that this fastination with a battleship getting within range of a carrier and blowing it out of the water is a myth. Every task force composed of big gun surface ships that was sent out to intercept a carrier task force, failed.

As I said I was under the same spell as most before doing the research. Literaly hundreds of submarines and destroyers were sunk yet less than 5% of the carriers sunk were by gunfire.

On another note over 6000 merchant ships from Japan, US and the UK were sent to the bottom. That number is astounding to me. Let me repeat that ... over 6000 individual troop transports, tramp steamers, Liberty ships etc.!




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 5:18:44 PM)

Hairog, I downloaded the files and ended up with 4 files named "StormOver...7Z" all of them 21020 KB. When I double click on each it asks if I want to open or save. Do I put them in the Campaign file and then open them or just move them there without opening. I am assuming the mod once installed will just show up as a Campaign scenario that I can choose. Thanks.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 5:20:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilber

Surely stacking naval units would greatly improve the realism of the game.
(This way a CV could be defended by a battleshp on the same hex).



Either it is very hard to change the program or Hubert has some other reason for not using stacking.

If you do play the naval mod you have to suspend your conventional thinking. Once ships are within sighting range, you have to change the scale of the game in your mind. Most naval games have a large scale fleet chart that zooms down once combat has started. Once you are on the tactical level there is no stacking. By using the zones of control properly, you can have a battleship defend a carrier.

In this case we just use the same map but change the scale down to Task Force size. The Screening Task Forces screen and the CV Task Forces hit from afar.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 5:42:51 PM)

Hairog, I put all 4 files in the Campaign folder of SC WIE. They all have the Windows icon. I see the campaigns that come with the game have the yellow folders. Do I open the 4 files with something like 7 Zip? I don't have WinZip and it doesn't look like they open with Internet Explorer.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 5:52:33 PM)

Yes they are zipped with 7 Zip




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 5:53:06 PM)

I used 7Zip and chose open for each of the 4 files. I then copied the opened files to that location, Campaign folder. I started SC and no change, still the same naval units. I then extracted the archives to "Here". Opened up SC and no change. What am I doing wrong? Thanks.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/11/2020 6:08:26 PM)

Be sure you are putting them into the correct Campaign folder. There are two of them. One is for the stock scenarios. Don't touch those. If you used STEAM these files are in the Steam directory. These are the wrong files.

The other is located in Users/xxxxx/Documents/MyGames/Strategic Command War in Europe/campaigns. That is where the files should go.

There should be only 3 files. Unzip all three files into the campaign folder. There should be the .cgn file, the .dat file and a folder full of all sorts of stuff call _1939 Storm Over Europe Naval Mod. Leave everything in that folder that is currently in that folder, don't change a thing.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 1:11:57 AM)

It is a little confusing but I think I got the mod installed. When I downloaded the from the three links you listed I ended up with:
1939 Storm over Europe od.cgn 38.18 MB
1939 Storm over Europe od.dat 3.75 KB
1939 Storm over Europe ai Mod

After downloading the above three I had the following:
1939 StormOverEurope(1) 21020 KB
1939 StormOverEurope(2) 21020 KB
1939 StormOverEurope 21020 KB

These three look to me like they are the same file as they are all the same size.

When I extracted the second and third ones I was asked if I wanted to overwrite the file as it already existed so I said yes.

In Users/xxxxx/Documents/MyGames?Strategic Command War in Europe/campaigns I now have the following:

A folder named _Storm over Europe Naval Mod
A CGN file named Storm over Europe Naval Mod.cgn 39101 KB
A video CD Movie named Storm over Europe Naval Mod 4KB

Is this the correct installation? Thanks.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 1:23:31 AM)

A couple of comments about the mod assuming I have it installed correctly. Please read my previous post to confirm that I indeed do have it installed correctly.

The Commonwealth units are now yellow instead of brown. Is this an error or was it your intention?

I see the British sub is also named a Wolfpack, seems odd. Are American subs named the same? I assume Italian subs are Wolfpacks too.

If that music/cd file is removed does that eliminate the German and British national music played at the beginning of the scenario. Will the mod still work if that is removed?

Thanks.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 3:28:25 AM)

I assume you got it running?

I didn't make the Common Wealth, yellow, just a lighter tan. Are all the other nations the right colors? I changed the color of the CW because the stock colors looked too much like the German and Italian colors. I just ran the mod on my computer and the CW are light tan and not yellow on my three different monitors.

The game does not allow each country to have different named units. I could have called all sub forces Sub Flotillas or something but I thought Wolf Pack was ok. If you want you can change it, but it's a lot of work. You'll have to change all the markers etc.

I'm pretty sure you can remove the music without a problem.

I hope you enjoy the Mod.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 3:29:43 AM)

In the mod, CV's have a naval spotting range of 8. I was playing around with mod by moving a CV one hex at a time thinking that after each one hex move it would spot any enemy naval units within 8 hexes but it didn't seem to work that way. How does it work?

Also in addition to comment about the Commonwealth unit's colour changing to yellow, I noticed that German corps have a dark grey centre which I think it is a good idea as you can tell visually right away that it is a corps and not an army.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 3:59:12 AM)

I must have installed the mod incorrectly. Please read my last few posts. I cranked up a single player as the Allies to check out the mod. When I clicked on Production for British HQ's it listed names like:
Prinz Eugen (7)
U-73 (6)
Bismarck (6)
Ark Royal (5)

For U.S. HQs examples of two were Leopold (7) and Dunkerque (6)
For Russian HQs examples were Wainwright (8), Warden (6) and Bunker Hill (8)

For all three countries it said no HQs even though they were the wrong names were not available until May 10 1941.

It appears I don't have a dat.file

Any help would be much appreciated.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 4:06:44 AM)

Unfortunately Task Forces only search at the end of their turn up to their full range. It's built into the game. They do have a couple of hex range as they move. You'll be surprized at how much you can see in that 8 hexes compared to 2 or 3 that it is in the stock game.

Use your Screening Task Forces well and surround your Fast Carrier TF and Bombadment TF etc. Screening and Recon TF are cheap and fast to become available again if shattered. Remember they are not destroyed just disorganized and need repair and reinforcements.

If you really want to get into the Naval Mod and have a lot of Fast Carrier TF to run around with, start saving your money and buy SC3 World at War. Matrix and the developers have included 4 of my Naval Mod campaigns in a Community Pack that comes free with the game, similar to the World War Three Campaign that comes with this game.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 4:10:17 AM)

I think I know what the problem is. I clicked on "Here" as you indicated. It took me to a Dropbox page listing the following:

1939 Storm over Europe od.cgn 38.18 MB
1939 Storm over Europe od.dat 3.75 KB
1939 Storm over Europe ai Mod.

However when I downloaded the above three, each download was the same, 1939 StormOverEurope 7Z 21020 KB. No dat or ai. This explains the Overwrite and why the HQ builds are screwed up. Please read my post two previous to your latest post above which begins with "It's a little confusing...."




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 6:33:52 AM)

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble.

I don't know how you got three files that are the same. Please try again. It is working for me and as far as I know other folks don't seem to have that trouble.

These are the correct three files:

1939 Storm over Europe od.cgn 38.18 MB
1939 Storm over Europe od.dat 3.75 KB
1939 Storm over Europe ai Mod.

If you don't get these after extraction something is wrong. Are you using 7 zip? Maybe that is the problem. I think I've heard that 7 zip has to be unzipped with 7 zip.




PvtBenjamin -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 2:56:20 PM)

Would it be possible to put the '39 scenario with the naval mod in the community pack?




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/12/2020 6:18:02 PM)

I've tried everything and can't get the mod to work which is too bad because as I mentioned, the naval aspect is the biggest weakness of this game. I went back to dropbox. There is one download file that is 20.53 MB. I downloaded this and put it in Users/xxxxx/Documents/MyGames/Strategic Command War in Europe/campaigns. I then used 7 Zip and chose extract here. The extracted files were:

1. A yellow folder names 1939 Storm over Europe Naval Mod
2. 1939 Storm over Europe Naval Mod. cgn 39101 KB
3. 1939 Storm over Europe Naval Mod 4k - Video CD Movie

I don't see the dat file you referred to. I started up SC in hotseat mode and the production is still screwed up. For example German HQ builds doesn't list German generals like Rommel, instead some names I never heard of. Plus it says not eligible until May 1940.

Hopefully as per PvtBenjamin's suggestion the naval mod will be put in the community pack.




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/14/2020 4:03:09 AM)

I think I may have an snswer for the folder mix up. Dropbox put everything for the mod into one mega folder called 1939StormOver Europe. The two files and one folder mentioned
_1939 Storm over Europe Naval Mod
1939 Storm over Europe Naval Mod.cgn
1939 Storm over Europe Naval Mod.dat
should be put separated into the campaign folder that is in - Users/xxxxx/Documents/MyGames/Strategic Command War in Europe. They should not be all together and in the folder named "1939StormOver Europe".

I'm still working on the names being messed up. As far as I can tell this doesn't affect gameplay. If I'm not mistaken, I don't think the Germans can deploy new generals until after May 1940.




canuckgamer -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/14/2020 4:36:56 AM)

Yes, all the builds, so not only the generals are in red and it says they cannot be built until May 10 1940.

Just to give you a few examples of what shows under HQ builds.

British - Prinz Eugen (7), U-73(6) Bismarck (6), Ark Royal (5) etc etc

U.S. - Leopold (7) Dunkerque (6)etc etc

Russia - Wainwright (8) Warden (6) Bunker Hill (8) etc etc

I look forward to the correct download files for the mod as we would like to use it our next PBEM and will continue to check this thread for the new link.

Thanks.




Gilber -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/14/2020 8:56:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

No offense Gilber but there is some kind of myth that surface ships regularly caught and sank fast cv task forces. I was one of those who thought this until I did the research. There were exactly two instances where a CV or CVL were caught. One was the HMS Glorious who had a former submariner as Captain. There was no combat patrol, search planes or even a lookout in the crows nest. Once the Germans were spotted he didn't alter course. There were no planes on standby for quick launch. The guy did almost everything wrong you can think of.

The other was a jeep carrier caught in the wrong place at the wrong time by the last of the Japanese fleet at the end of the war. A bad decision by Halsey left them exposed and ripe for a battleship or two being masked by the Solaman Islands. The task force Taffy 3 still gave a good account of itself and almost got away.

5% of the carriers sunk in WWII were sunk by gunfire or surface combat. 95% were not and were sunk by air powere or submarines. My point is that this fastination with a battleship getting within range of a carrier and blowing it out of the water is a myth. Every task force composed of big gun surface ships that was sent out to intercept a carrier task force, failed.

As I said I was under the same spell as most before doing the research. Literaly hundreds of submarines and destroyers were sunk yet less than 5% of the carriers sunk were by gunfire.

On another note over 6000 merchant ships from Japan, US and the UK were sent to the bottom. That number is astounding to me. Let me repeat that ... over 6000 individual troop transports, tramp steamers, Liberty ships etc.!


you're right, aircraft carriers have in practice hardly ever been bothered by surface ships.

As in SC surface ships can travel 21 hexes per turn the solution might be to give the carrier a high probability of escaping combat by evading in a similar manner to submarines.

what do you think of this?




Simulacra53 -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/14/2020 6:44:26 PM)

1939
100% by sub
0% by a/c
0% by surface vessels

1940
0% by sub
0% by aircraft
100% by surface vessels

1941
100% by sub
0% by a/c
0% by surface vessel

So by extension for the first two full years of the war carriers were invulnerable to a/c, right?




Hairog -> RE: Naval Game in SC a Big Disappointment (1/14/2020 10:47:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilber

you're right, aircraft carriers have in practice hardly ever been bothered by surface ships.

As in SC surface ships can travel 21 hexes per turn the solution might be to give the carrier a high probability of escaping combat by evading in a similar manner to submarines.

what do you think of this?



That's exactly what I've done in all the naval mods. The carriers have a defensive evasion of 70%. So even if you get through all the Screen Task Forces you still have only a 30% chance of getting any damage. CV also have a 3 hex retreat range and an 8 hex search range at the end of their turn. They are indeed a formitable unit to have, just like the historical record indicates.




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