D21 - Kronstadt (Full Version)

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danprezell -> D21 - Kronstadt (10/24/2019 9:12:32 PM)

It is turn 41, the exclusion zone is down and the garrison has evaporated. How do I get troops there? I have a motorized engineer unit that can't move onto the shallow water hex. Do I need one of those Romanian bridge units? I took Leningrad probably 15 turns ago, and I have no sea or air transports to get anyone on the island.

Also, what a pain rasputitsa is!!! Here you go Russia, have 10 free turns while the Wehrmacht sits in a hole starving, wondering why everyone in the OKH forgot about the two seasons that come after summer. My supply has only risen to 20 and my shock is a frustrating 90. The 42nd Infantry Corps is only 60km from the Kremlin; as soon as the ground freezes it'll be a race to beat the Siberians.




Lobster -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/24/2019 10:43:05 PM)

Meh...the Siberians are a myth.




danprezell -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/27/2019 5:19:20 PM)

So no one knows how to take Kronstadt?

Lobster are you making fun or saying that the Siberian divisions are unjustly credited with stopping the Germans?




76mm -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/27/2019 6:53:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell
...are you making fun or saying that the Siberian divisions are unjustly credited with stopping the Germans?

I can't speak for Lobster, but AFAIK according to pretty much all recent scholarship, the Siberian divisions are indeed unjustly credited with stopping the Germans. They helped of course, but there were not enough of them to make a big difference.




Lobster -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/27/2019 8:59:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell

So no one knows how to take Kronstadt?

Lobster are you making fun or saying that the Siberian divisions are unjustly credited with stopping the Germans?


The myth goes like this:
Stalin learned from his spy chief in Japan, Richard Sorge, that the Japanese had no intention of attacking the USSR. So the divisions east of the Urals were released from October to November in time to stop the Germans in front of Moscow.

Now for the historic facts. Only 14 divisions were transferred from east to west. The 24th Army with it's 6 divisions were already in the process of being moved west and were concentrating west of Moscow before the invasion even took place. These divisions were either gutted or destroyed before Typhoon even took place. The 2 Tank and 1 Mech division had few Siberian personnel. To make matters worse they didn't even start forming until March/April 1941. 3 other Rifle Divisions were sent to Leningrad. Only 6 could even remotely be considered to be deployed against AGC. Only 2 of these had Siberian personnel and then only part of them, not the whole division. But according to the myth the Germans encountered Siberians all along the front. In fact, it would be more fitting to talk about the Siberians in front of Leningrad.

The whole thing is a myth from top to bottom. Timing, numbers, that the personnel were Siberian and combat performance.

26 Rifle formed in Far East MD and sent to NW Front September.
21 Rifle formed in Siberia MD and sent to 7 Sep Army September. (Majority Siberians)
114 Rifle formed in Transbaikal MD and sent to 7 Sep Army September.
92 Rifle formed in Far East MD and sent to 4 Sep Army October.
65 Rifle formed in Transbaikal MD and sent to 4 Army November.
32 Rifle formed in Volga/Siberian MD and sent to 5 Army October. (Majority Siberians)
93 Rifle formed in Siberia MD and sent to 43 Army October. (Majority Siberians)
78 Rifle formed in Far East MD and sent to 16 Army October.
238 Rifle formed in Central Asia MD and sent to 49 Army October.
60 Tank formed in Far East MD and sent to 4 Sep Army in October.
58 Tank formed in Far East MD and sent to 16 Army October.
82 Mech formed in Transbaikal MD and sent to 5 Army November.
18 Mtn Cav formed in Central Asia MD and sent to 30 Army November.
20 Mtn Cav formed in Central Asia MD and sent to 16 Army November.

It wasn't Siberians that defeated Barbarossa. It was the newly formed 182 Rifle Divisions, 43 Militia Divisions, 8 Tank Divisions, 3 Mech Divisions, 50 Cavalry Divisions, 62 Tank Brigades, 55 Rifle Brigades, 32 Naval Brigades, 41 Armies, 11 Fronts and a host of newly formed artillery, anti aircraft, anti tank, rocket, engineer and a cast of millions. That's what defeated Barbarossa.




Lobster -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/27/2019 9:03:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell

It is turn 41, the exclusion zone is down and the garrison has evaporated. How do I get troops there? I have a motorized engineer unit that can't move onto the shallow water hex. Do I need one of those Romanian bridge units? I took Leningrad probably 15 turns ago, and I have no sea or air transports to get anyone on the island.



The Germans had assault boat companies but what they did was wait till winter and the Big Freeze. They attacked over ice and got chopped to bits. [;)]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/28/2019 12:10:26 AM)

quote:

How do I get troops there?

The shallow water will freeze when it is cold enough. The Info Bar at the bottom of the screen will let you know.

I think you might get Sea Transport Capacity, but I'm not sure when or why. If in fact you do, then you can do an Amphibious Assault.

If you are adventurous, you can run a Dump and search for 'Sea Transport 2' to see what events there might be that would allow you to do an Amphibious Assault.




danprezell -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/28/2019 1:51:52 AM)

It amazes me how much, up until the fairly recently, the west has gotten the history of the Eastern Front wrong. I'm currently reading the "The Chief Culprit" by Viktor Suvorov, a defector from the GRU. Its very interesting to say the least.




danprezell -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/28/2019 3:54:40 AM)

Got another question. What is the deal the the 7th Flieger Division? Three of the regiments have only 1 movement point. Only the sturm regiment and the HQ has any movement ability.




StuccoFresco -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/28/2019 7:00:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell

It amazes me how much, up until the fairly recently, the west has gotten the history of the Eastern Front wrong. I'm currently reading the "The Chief Culprit" by Viktor Suvorov, a defector from the GRU. Its very interesting to say the least.


Suvorov isn't a good read. His theorycrafting and bending reality to them makes him unreliable at best, a scam at worst.

Glantz is way a better read for the Eastern Front.




cathar1244 -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/28/2019 7:15:29 AM)

Reply to Lobster.

Interesting bit about the Siberians. Yes, even just OOB analysis reveals much of the force in the far east of the USSR did not move west. Your other facts add quite a bit of color. I suppose "the Siberians" made for sensational announcements / reporting during the war.

I'll repeat a question about the eastern front here in the hope that you may have some insight.

Oranienbaum Bridgehead. How was it able to hold out, even in the dark days of 1941-42? Seems like AG North should have been able to roll it up.

Cheers




Lobster -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/28/2019 3:05:53 PM)

The Soviet 8th Army was supposed to be cut off and destroyed. After it was cut off the German's were intent on attacking towards Leningrad and didn't have the troops to both attack the Leningrad defenses and the 8th Army defenses. But when the German mobile divisions were sent south there were not enough troops left to do much of anything other than hold on to what was already taken. So the 8th Army was supplied by a water route. It's a much longer story than that. Much was due to Hitler's meddling and German higher headquarters endless infighting. In any event entering Leningrad would have involved fighting every occupant left after the evacuation of much of the prewar population. Probably would have made Stalingrad look like a picnic.




Dreamslayer -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/28/2019 7:36:02 PM)

Need to say that the defense of the Oranienbaum Bridgehead or POG (Primorskaya operativnaya gruppa) was based on coastal batteries mainly of 2 forts "Krasnoflotskiy"("F"/"Krasnaya Gorka") and secondary "Krasnogvardeyskiy"("L"/"Seraya Loshad"). Many wargames incorrectly places a fort unit to Oranienbaum city, actually the forts was more to west. Probably this fortified sector can be compared with Sevastopol sector, because each had 8x 305mm naval guns.
The fortified sector of POG had total about 10 naval batteries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell
It amazes me how much, up until the fairly recently, the west has gotten the history of the Eastern Front wrong. I'm currently reading the "The Chief Culprit" by Viktor Suvorov, a defector from the GRU. Its very interesting to say the least.

Another one ... (facepalm)




danprezell -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/29/2019 12:29:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer


Another one ... (facepalm)



Easy fella, this is a video game forum.




danprezell -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/29/2019 12:43:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Suvorov isn't a good read. His theorycrafting and bending reality to them makes him unreliable at best, a scam at worst.

Glantz is way a better read for the Eastern Front.




Many of his chapters are pretty sketchy, others not right at all, but some are very compelling. I'd say its too far to say its a scam, unless its over his repackaging "Icebreaker" to sell more books. A death sentence from Soviet/Russian security services is not worth a theory he believes to be a scam.

Glantz's "Operation Barbarossa" is actually next on the queue. Periodically picking up Manstein's "Lost Victories" while I play through D21. Will probably go back to Guderian's "Panzer Leader" as well, especially since its been almost 15 years since I read it.




cathar1244 -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/31/2019 7:23:57 AM)

Been digging a small bit into my question re: Oranienbaum.

What it sounds like is that when AG North arrived in that area, they were reaching the end of their logistical tether. Thus, initially, the Soviets had a respite, bolstered by naval gunfire support and fire from the forts in the sea near Leningrad. Then came the mud and the snow.

By the time good weather in 1942 arrived, I expect the Soviets in the bridgehead were very well dug in. The Germans mulled an operation to roll up the bridgehead that year, but other operations took priority, and it looks like AG North pretty much held a static front from then on until the Soviet offensives of 1944 that relieved Leningrad. This included sneaking 2nd Shock Army into the Oranienbaum Bridgehead for a breakout operation to reestablish a land corridor to Leningrad.

An interesting little Eastern Front sideshow. I wonder how such a situation could be represented in TOAW -- a Soviet supply source in Oranienbaum?

Cheers




Lobster -> RE: D21 - Kronstadt (10/31/2019 3:48:33 PM)

Considering the German forces of AGN had reached the end of their operational mandate at Leningrad reaching the end of their logistical tether would be of little consequence compared to say, AGC. The respite lay directly at the feet of Hitler and OKH. Plus the Soviets were very active and stronger than the Army Group staff had expected. Something that was repeated across the staffs of all Army Groups. For example the Soviet thrust at Staraya Russa was a complete surprise and forced the Germans to move units in that direction to counter that attack bleeding off time, supplies, equipment and men that they could ill afford. AGN never had the forces needed to achieve their objective if the original plan of moving the German's third mobile group north to help them was not adhered to. And to seal the fate of AGN the bulk of their mobile group was moved south!

If someone were to read Germany and the Second World War: Volume IV The Attack on the Soviet Union (a short 1200+ page read [;)]) a better understanding of the failure of Barbarossa can be had. It's a litany of the German hierarchy voluntarily blindfolding themselves to the facts. Even the people in charge of logistics told them that a one year campaign to the depth envisioned was not possible. It would take a minimum of two years! Anything beyond about 500 kilometers would be a living off the land scenario. (500 kilometers = approximately Kerch-Kharkov-Orel-Klin not even reaching Moscow)




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