A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (Full Version)

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Grognerd_INC -> A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/16/2019 11:18:16 AM)

Curious if any of the conflicts in the world today have influenced design choices in Southern Storm?
Mostly centered around the Syrian civil war and infantry survivability in urban areas.
I recognize the era differences between today and 1980's but I'm just curious if these conflicts have influenced the design.




CapnDarwin -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/16/2019 2:52:10 PM)

The answer is yes and no. IMHO, none of these conflicts are a true analog to the situation of a cold war going hot. The Warsaw pact forces were never going to engage in any drawn out battles in cities. The ones not glowing or slimed at the outset of hostilities would be bypassed and cleaned up later. The only real city fights would be in cities with major river crossing use.

All that said, we have made a number of changes to LOS and other factors that will both improve survivabily but also limit the ability to use ranged weapons out of a built up area.

As we get into scenario testing and fine tuning of the combat models, we will be able to get a better feel for the way soft units function against various attacks.




Grognerd_INC -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/16/2019 3:31:38 PM)

Thank you for the answer. I thought about if these conflicts today would be applicable to the game, that's kind of why I asked to see if they had any bearing. I do look forward to playing this game.




CapnDarwin -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/16/2019 4:54:23 PM)

You can see some places and times where these conflicts are close to the level of action or at least show elements of taking out targets with little care paid to collateral damage. While it is hard to say exactly how a WW3 would be fought, enough information has leaked out to show that both sides had factored in the use of nuclear weapons and in some cases chemical as well to hit large population centers or form up sites for ground forces. I think players look at the drawn out house to house fighting at the end of WW2 and figure the same would happen in a WW3 setting. I think you have to look at the speed and legality of the modern weapons of time and see sitting still even in building was making yourself too much of target for accurate firepower. We have been to a couple of the Connections events for talking points with gamers and the military and there have been talks on city fighting, but they are usually biased in the last 20 years of asymmetric conflicts. With a shift back to large scale kinetic actions with peer players, I think these scenarios are getting looked at with more eyes. As a commander of a fighting ground force, where would you choose to fight? Does this change if you are attacking or defending? Is NBC warfare being used? Are you on your home soil? I don't think the Pros have a lot of good answers here either right now. When you decide to attack or setup a defense in a city, what provisions if any are you making for the civilians in the area? Many hard, not usually seen in games questions. [8D]




WildCatNL -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/16/2019 9:30:13 PM)

Larry, very interesting question.

In western Europe, during the 40+ years since WW2, the landscape there has seen major changes with respect to major roads (highways, national roads) and urban areas: major roads have, to a large extent, been moved out of the cities, reducing the importance of seizing urban areas.

For example, (since I've been living in that region), an operation 'Market Garden' in 1989 would not have fight through the cities of Eindhoven, Nijmegen or Arnhem in order to seize the main road and bridges towards and across the Rhine as they did in 1944.
Instead, the 1989 'Hell's Highway' of N2, N50, A50, would by-pass Eindhoven to the west, 's Hertogenbosch to the south, and both Nijmegen and Arnhem to the west to cross the Rhine at Oosterbeek. (The 2019 'Hell's Highway' would match the 'original' trajectory again, but still bypass the cities and larger villages, thanks to a new A50 highway connecting Eindhoven and Nijmegen).
In such a scenario, large cities still would be to able to hide strong forces, but these forces might have to attack out from the city instead of defend the city itself.

William





Zakalwe101 -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/16/2019 9:55:11 PM)

Two key conflicts that have happened or are ongoing,
1ST Chechen war - once again demonstrating how utterly vulnerable unaccompaned tanks are in towns, take look at https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/rusav.htm#N_10_
Also worth looking at AT is on youtube T72 Tanks in action, they have both immeiate infantry support and overwatch , yet in 60 odd minutes thy make zero progress, and have a Tank "fallen out" due to an IED. Thats against insurgents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bsDP5DznDQ

If anything I think that the effectiveness of tank only units in town/cities is to great, or rather infantry units in towns is not not tough enough, they may not be able to inflict casualties but they should be much much harder to dislodge.




Grognerd_INC -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/16/2019 10:17:58 PM)

Let me first say I don't dis-agree with the developers, mostly was asking about if any insight was gained from any of the urban wars that have occurred lately. Chechen tank debacle but mostly the Syrian civil war.

My point of reference was playing the NATO side in a scenario that the Warsaw Pact had to take the city for a river bridge head. The NATO infantry were pretty quickly beat up in the urban area. I never re=played that one (should have though!) I was some what surprised by the speed at which I lost the infantry.

The game is very good, I really don't want the developers to think I'm critical or whining about anything. First scenario I ever played I got wasted quickly, you have to learn how to play in this system, even if you are an experienced war-gamer.

The most fun is the first time through any scenario since the FOW is the highest (as it should be). Looking forward to more punishment! Ha!




CapnDarwin -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/17/2019 12:23:47 AM)

You have every right to question and bring up information and questions. Red Storm is not perfect and we made a number of design decisions based on what we had and thought those number of years ago and the game had some deep code bugs as well that hampered some of our getting things to work right or better as we did updates over the years. So we value all the inputs we get and we look to see where we can make the game better for Southern Storm.




Searry -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/17/2019 8:30:22 AM)

What's slimed?




CapnDarwin -> RE: A question about Southern Storm infantry in cities (10/17/2019 10:25:10 AM)

Slimed equals a chemical strike.




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