What should be my next wargame? (Full Version)

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Antmf_slith -> What should be my next wargame? (6/6/2019 10:30:51 PM)

This or decisive campaigns Barbarosa? How is this game and how is the AI?

Zovs -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/6/2019 10:58:36 PM)

Buy this game if you want to have maximum replay ability with hundreds of scenarios covering operational warfare from 1700-2050 at all levels of command.

Zovs -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/6/2019 11:00:52 PM)

The other game has only one scenario. TOAW has been around for 20 years with literally several hundred scenarios.

Antmf_slith -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/6/2019 11:04:13 PM)

How is the AI and how complex and deep isn't his game?

rhinobones -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/6/2019 11:52:14 PM)


ORIGINAL: Antmf_slith

How is the AI and how complex and deep isn't his game?

If you’re looking for a challenge playing TOAW solitary games, well programed scenarios can give you a very good game. In the scenario briefing look for an AI opponent capability. I find shorter games to be the most difficult against AI opponents. In the TOAW4 universe there is an abundance of AI opponent games.

Games identified as “PBM only” are excellent, but only when played against a Cheyenne opponent.

Regards, RhinoBones

Zovs -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 2:15:25 AM)


ORIGINAL: Antmf_slith

How is the AI and how complex and deep isn't his game?

The AI (Elmer) is pretty darn good, not as good as a human but good enough especially when a designer has set the PO up.

This game has so much depth it’s not funny it is platoon to, company, battalion, regiment, division, corps, army levels, and it encompasses a few hours to half a day to full day to half a week to full week to biweekly to monthly to annually or yearly turns, and the hex size can be 0.5,1, 2, 2.5, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 50, 75 and 100 miles per hex.

gliz2 -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 7:12:48 AM)

Disclaimer: These days I play mostly TAOW and JT's Panzer Campaigns.

DC and TAOW are two completely different games:
1. DC is a dedicated strategic war simulator when you have some decent personnel interaction (which is one of the key elements of warefare).
It's basically focused on decision making at strategic level.
And it is only for Barbarossa.
2. TAOW is a sandbox (for all campaigns). It has no personell intearctions, extremely limited strategic decisions, and is all about chits pushing and game mechanics.

Depends what are you preferences. If you are a boardgamegeek you will most probably like TAOW and it's limitations won't bother you much.
If you like more of a simulator with strategic decisioning and personell intearctions I'd go with DC.

TAOW suffers greatly from being a sandbox game. As they say: if something is for everything then it is usually not good at anything. It suffers from heavy simplifications, no interactions and god-like chits pushing.
Still not anything comes close as to the sheervamount of available scenarios in all sizes (from company level to corp level).

PS. I'd recommend to have a look also at John Tillers Panzer Campaigns series. They are based around a campaign, so more tailored to the specific campaign, chits-pushing based but with no personell interaction but it hits the sweat spot in my opinion. The only downside is the scale. Normandy campaign takes 400 turns.

PS 2. Why I keep playing TAOW then? It is like a family car. Not gonna win any race, rather ugly and clunky but it's the only way to fit the whole family (all scales and all periods of warefare) into one.
I play mostly FITE2 and some other (smaller) IIWW scenarios. Sometimes it is frustrating to be just pushing chits. But there is really norhing else out there that have all the flavours in one game.

Lobster -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 12:03:38 PM)

A sandbox game is a game with no set goals. You set your own goals and do whatever you want. I've yet to see any war game that is a sandbox game. In all war games you push 'chits' or things representing military units. It's unavoidable. Even in grand strategy games you end up pushing units that represent something. But it is not a mindless endeavor.

Sometimes these games as well as others are on sale and you can pick up both of them for the price it would cost to get one or the other at regular price. Right now there is a sale and both of them are selling for a very reasonable price. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4642541 I have all of the Decisive Campaign games and TOAW and like them all. They are all different in many ways and the same in some ways. If you like the Decisive Campaign games you will also like TOAW and visa versa.

Forgot to say, I have a large number of JT Panzer Campaign series games and all of the Panzer Battle games. They are good games but basically all the same, much like making different scenarios in TOAW. There are no leaders there either but there are leader pictures on the HQ units if that makes a difference. Finding them on sale is difficult.

In recent years Tiller himself has become more of a real world game producer for the U.S. armed forces and has basically given over his war game production to others.

Air Force Funding for Advanced Wargaming!
The Air Force Research Lab has approved funding to John Tiller Software to provide advanced space and cyber wargaming capabilities in support of research into future Science and Technology.

Bamilus -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 1:09:50 PM)

I love both games. I think TOAW gives you the most value, but honestly it's way harder to learn because of how old the system is, how different it is, and how terrible the manual is.

DC: Barbarossa is my favorite wargame and it also has the best manual I've ever seen. The way it handles your relationships with superiors and generals is amazing, along with the supply system. I'll also add that DC:B was made primarily for play vs AI and the AI is very good. There are also many AI options and what if's you can do, along with random events, so there is good replayability.

Highly recommend both and I share the same sentiment as the above posters in that TOAW is more of a sandbox game but DC Barbarossa is more focused.

Zovs -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 3:16:04 PM)

Once you master the basics of TOAW you soon learn that it’s very much like play our old paper board war games but so much richer in details. In the 60s-80s all we had was a paper map, card board counters and the rules and charts. With TOAW it very much like that but better. The engine handles the rules/charts and the engine handles the map and counters but is guided by the scenario designers input. So a designer an input the exact TOE of say a battalion or regiment or division and the engine handles things like readiness, supply, and combat/movement and the player can interact with the engine in myriad ways in with hundreds of scenarios spanning mostly WW1-WW2, plus the modern era and parts of the civil war to pre-WW1 and even the American Revolution. The dynamics are vast and really unending with choices. It shines in battalion to regimental level with ranged artillery.

76mm -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 4:55:38 PM)

I'm probably an outlier here, but I did not care for DC: Barbarossa at all...I found the "personal interactions" gimmicky, superficial, and annoying.

Bamilus -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 4:59:48 PM)



I'm probably an outlier here, but I did not care for DC: Barbarossa at all...I found the "personal interactions" gimmicky, superficial, and annoying.

I can understand that viewpoint, but the relationships are really there as a hindrance, not to be something that helps. I think they do a good job of (as best a game can) modeling the competing interests, plans, and dysfunctions (especially on the German side) that happened all the time in the war. Guderian ignoring Bock and Kluge, Hitler overriding Generals, Halder and Brauchitsch trying to push for Moscow drive while hiding it from Hitler, Luftwaffe competition with army for supplies, etc etc.

But, there are times where it can get kind of annoying but I'm glad there's options to tweak the settings for it.

Lobster -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 8:34:24 PM)

Wargame constuction kit type games like TOAW have been around for ages. You can probably pick up some of the old ones. Wargame Constuction Kit II: Tanks!, Wargame Construction Kit III: Age of Rifles, Steel Panthers and everything in that whole series which is a serious amount of material, Combat mission games old and new and those are just off the top of my head. The old verision Combat Mission games are on sale over a GOG for fairly cheap ($5.39). You can design tons of stuff to play with them all. I'd buy them now if I didn't already have them.

76mm -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/7/2019 9:44:49 PM)


Wargame constuction kit type games like TOAW have been around for ages.

Sure, but the ones you mention are generally 20-25 years old (!!) and have not been updated since then.

Whatever its flaws might be, TOAW IV is the only "construction set" game I'm aware of that has been more or less updated. The Panzer Campaign games have been updated significantly over the years, but with no map editor I can't consider them to be in a similar class.

larryfulkerson -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/8/2019 9:28:39 AM)

From personal experience I have had with the editor of WITP-AE scenarios I can state that there is a learning curve associated it. Especially with charting out the AI missions. I can do a few simple things but I've not seriously modded a scenario with it yet. But it does have an editor that can produce new scenarios.

gliz2 -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/10/2019 6:18:10 AM)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the neex to set up objectives on scenario designers?
If you want you can have any sort of objectives.
What I mean by sandbox is that yoy can throw any period and scale in and the engine will cope with it. For dedicated games you need to change the engine.
And yes, the above makes difference. Tillers games are much more detailed with better AI and generally beter operational experience. Because they are tailored to each operation.

gliz2 -> RE: What should be my next wargame? (6/10/2019 6:23:08 AM)

I miss that a lot in most wagames. I used to play 2v2 boardgames and boy oh boy only at that level the interactios made a hell of a thing.
Also many boardgames took into account the commander's influence on troops.
It makes a huge difference in reality if you are your CO favourite or how the politics play behind. Look at the competition between Patton, Bradley and Monty.
Maybe one day we see the game which will allow as to be part of that.

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